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Old 10-21-2010, 09:57 PM    (permalink
PoopSandwich
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Originally Posted by steelersfan43 View Post
A form tackle leads with the shoulder. How the **** do you tackle without your shoulder? And the only difference between the "clean hits" in the video was that the offensive players didnt lower their heads.
Look at the hit in my avatar and tell me that's how every hit is delivered on every single sunday.

That is not a *form* tackle.

That is leading with the shoulder.

That is what they're trying to prevent, you know Shipley being concussed and missing 2 games on top of being knocked out in the forth quarter against the browns.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
Look at the hit in my avatar and tell me that's how every hit is delivered on every single sunday.

That is not a *form* tackle.

That is leading with the shoulder.

That is what they're trying to prevent, you know Shipley being concussed and missing 2 games on top of being knocked out in the forth quarter against the browns.
A FORM TACKLE LEADS WITH THE SHOULDER. They're saying you cant lead with your shoulder....
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by steelersfan43 View Post
A FORM TACKLE LEADS WITH THE SHOULDER. They're saying you cant lead with your shoulder....
This is impossible to argue with and explain if you aren't going to think for yourself.

It would be like saying the word bat means only the animal and not the thing used in baseball or to do something with your eyelashes.

Just because it says lead with your shoulder doesn't mean you can't use your shoulders in a tackle or make a good form tackle that's clean where you go with your shoulders as well, they're trying to eliminate the hits like my avatar, where he lowers his shoulder and uses that as the only weapon of impact to hit a player hard enough to cause harm when it is unnecessary to do so. Yes, you can make a good form solid tackle without using your shoulder like its a battering ram, which is what they're trying to prevent.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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Don't they say in the video that this is a good example of a clean hit and allowed?
They do, but there really is no difference between that hit and the Robinson hit, that is my point. This is a video that shows 3 very similar hits, 2 are legal and one isn't(apparently) and now players will get suspended on this kind of inconsistent ruling that seems to be more based on the results of collisions than the actual collisions themselves. IE 2 bad hits that resulted in concussions and 3 "good" hits that didn't, no actual difference between the hits themselves just the results.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:37 PM    (permalink
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No real difference? The entire video talks incessantly about the "head and neck area". The Robinson hit on Jackson was in the neck area, the Lewis hit wasn't. Even beyond that, Robinson deal the blow with the crown of his helmet, Lewis dealt it with his shoulder. I really don't understand what you're trying to say.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:43 PM    (permalink
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Whats stupid is that even when defensive players go low, they will still get penalized when the offensive player lowers to their level and causes the helmet contact.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by steelersfan43 View Post
Whats stupid is that even when defensive players go low, they will still get penalized when the offensive player lowers to their level and causes the helmet contact.
Offensive players aren't trying to tackle a defense player with a helmet they're lowering their body to make a smaller zone and it is more natural for the body to take a hit like that.

Who the hell just stands straight up when they're going to get tackled that makes no sense.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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I wonder if this will lead to more knee injuries. If players keep getting the garbage fined out of them week in and week in for tackling high...the'll probably start going low eventually. If that happens will we see more Willis McGahee/Joe Theisman type knee injuries?

That said, I guess having messed up knees is better than having a messed up head in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:55 PM    (permalink
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Whats stupid is that even when defensive players go low, they will still get penalized when the offensive player lowers to their level and causes the helmet contact.
No, this is what you think will happen. If a player is ruled "defenseless", then he won't really have a chance to do anything with his body before the hit and if he isn't the rules are completely different.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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This is impossible to argue with and explain if you aren't going to think for yourself.

It would be like saying the word bat means only the animal and not the thing used in baseball or to do something with your eyelashes.

Just because it says lead with your shoulder doesn't mean you can't use your shoulders in a tackle or make a good form tackle that's clean where you go with your shoulders as well, they're trying to eliminate the hits like my avatar, where he lowers his shoulder and uses that as the only weapon of impact to hit a player hard enough to cause harm when it is unnecessary to do so. Yes, you can make a good form solid tackle without using your shoulder like its a battering ram, which is what they're trying to prevent.
I get what you are saying, but they shouldnt say leading with your shoulder, since in almost every tackle the shoulder is the first thing making contact.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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No, this is what you think will happen. If a player is ruled "defenseless", then he won't really have a chance to do anything with his body before the hit and if he isn't the rules are completely different.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2010/10...-motion-video/
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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No, this is what you think will happen. If a player is ruled "defenseless", then he won't really have a chance to do anything with his body before the hit and if he isn't the rules are completely different.
Massaquoi and Jackson both were ruled defenseless and both had lowered their heads. So lowering your head does not change a player from being defenseless.

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Even beyond that, Robinson deal the blow with the crown of his helmet, Lewis dealt it with his shoulder. I really don't understand what you're trying to say.
Robinson lead with his shoulder, as did Lewis, and hit Jackson in the chest. Any head contact was incidental and as much a result of Jackson lowering his head as anything else.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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Jackson wasn't lowering his head, he was turning as he was trying to catch a ball. There's no intent there dude.

As for Massaquoi, I'd entertain the argument if Harrison's head wasn't lined up with the reciever's chin during the entire duration of the slow mo linked above. The NFL is asking defenders to make a conscious effort. There's no way to argue that's what Harrison was doing.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:10 PM    (permalink
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The bottom line is that he went low on the guy and the reciever caused the helmet to helmet contact, and he still was fined 75 g's
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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No, the bottom line is that their heads were lined up, both players sank low, and Harrison made no effort to do anything but initiate helmet to helmet contact.

That said, do I think that offensive players should be culpable? Yes. Do I think that in that case of that particular tackle that Massaquoi sank low to initiate that sort of contact? No. I think he did it because if he didn't Harrison was going to take his entire head off.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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So your saying the only place a defender can aim is below the waist, because at any second the runner can duck and cause helmet to helmet, giving them a suspension. Sounds good.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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So your saying the only place a defender can aim is below the waist, because at any second the runner can duck and cause helmet to helmet, giving them a suspension. Sounds good.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I just said that offensive players should be culpable for intentionally initiating dangerous contact (especially when it comes to open-field blocking).

That said, in this age of football, if an offensive player is turning after making a catch, only to see a defender sitting right there at head level, he's not lowering his head to try and incur a penalty, he's lowering his whole body to protect himself. If a defender is lowering his head with an offensive players, it's to deliver a certain kind of hit which happens to be illegal in the game at the moment.

While I am sympathetic to the question of how the NFL can forcefully enact these rules while not neutering the sport, I don't think the fruitful discussion is going to be based around specific examples of hits. I have no problem with that hit by Harrison being called and that's the only one where I think there's even a tiny bit of gray area. That Robinson hit was flagrant.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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Its like the nfl is acting as if defenders are bad people for trying to make tackles. Its half the damn game. 98 Percent of helmet to helmet contact is caused by both sides. Everyone gets low, so heads hit. Hits like merriweather's was awful and he should get suspended. Thats deliberately giving a guy a concussion.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:37 PM    (permalink
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Jackson wasn't lowering his head, he was turning as he was trying to catch a ball. There's no intent there dude.
His head is certainly on it's way down, he still gets laid out regardless, but the reason for any helmet contact is as much him bringing his head down as it is Robinson. Still, that fine should be going to the QB, that's a good clean hit in my book and nothing is changing that. Unfortunate outcome, but a clean hit none the less. It was a shithouse throw.

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As for Massaquoi, I'd entertain the argument if Harrison's head wasn't lined up with the reciever's chin during the entire duration of the slow mo linked above. The NFL is asking defenders to make a conscious effort. There's no way to argue that's what Harrison was doing.
I agree with you for the most part, Harrison didn't need to lead with his head, but it is as much Massaquois fault, that is the problem here, he drops his head, which you should and are taught to do but my problem is that it wouldn't matter if Harrison lead with his head there or not, if he goes with the shoulder or a form tackle he still is going to hit the head of a receiver because of the receiver. That is my problem with that play, not so much the actual result of that play, again no problem with a fine for a play like that where he leads with the head but what happens with that play when he leads with the shoulder in a form tackle instead?
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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This just came to me but shouldnt harrison have been called for Spearing regardless of the helmet to helmet rules. That rule just came to me and I did some research and spearing is.


"Spearing is illegal and results in a 15-yard penalty against the offending team"


I searched the NFL.com rule book and it said

" tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent."

So regardless of if a WR moved into a helmet to helmet hit. Harrison broke a rule by spearing.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:51 PM    (permalink
wogitalia
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Yep Raven's that is correct.

My issue isn't actually with the fine for Harrison, that was helmet to helmet contact, my issue is that the "head contact" was caused by Massaquoi dropping his head and what the league would have done had he been making a form tackle that inherently leads with the shoulder instead of the head charge that he did.

I hate the idea of suspensions but I hate them even more when it is going to be open some arbitrary judgement system that is almost certainly going to be inconsistent and just cause confusion. Hell the rule has changed each week and had to be clarified everytime a receiver gets hit, that is how not clear the rule is.
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:23 AM    (permalink
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People have to understand that the rules aren't changing - the punishments are. These rules have been on the books, it's just that Rodney Harrison finally pointed out that the current punishments are useless (I've been saying this for a while). Now the NFL is serious with the suspensions.

The fact that so many players are speaking out is proof that these suspensions will be a deterrent. You've got guys like Urlacher talking - it's because they now know that the rules have to be taken seriously.

As for the rules themselves.....mixed feelings I have. Helmet to helmet hits should obviously not be allowed, but some of these others didn't seem too bad. The game of football will be fine. It's not turning into a pansy league. And this won't hurt the NFL at all. Ask anyone on this forum, "will you stop watching football because of these rules/punishments?" No one will.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:05 AM    (permalink
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Ive been losing interest in the pro game for a while now, and if this causes some dumb crap ill be all college football. Still watch the superbowl though ;)
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:46 AM    (permalink
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Why did Dunta Robinson get fined? I'm still confused, because i don't see helmet-to-helmet. Was his fine just for hitting a defenseless player?
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:55 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-I-P View Post
Why did Dunta Robinson get fined? I'm still confused, because i don't see helmet-to-helmet. Was his fine just for hitting a defenseless player?
I'd be willing to bet that if that was a 260lb TE instead of a 160lb WR, he wouldn't of got fined.
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