The Cameron Newton Thread - Page 26

ThePudge · 12-06-2010, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToldLikeItIs

Newton obviously has serious character concerns, but is also ultra-talented.

Something against black quarterbacks? Name the last black quarterback to win a super bowl.

Name the last black Quarterback to be 6'6 245 with a rocket arm. Now, name the last one of those to take (perhaps carry is the better word) his team to a National Championship game in his first year learning an offense. Next, name one that became unanimously the best player in college football and the worthy recipient of the Heisman Trophy.

Face it, you can't use past trends to judge Cam Newton or else you'd have to say he had no business getting this far in the first place.

Vince Young needed three years in his offense to develop as a passer and become close to as good as Newton. It's pretty clear to me Cam picks things up quicker than Vince and is also mechanically further along as a passer than Vince seems today. Of course, Young was more experienced, but many busts don't fail due to a lack of experience in college. It limits the amount of film we have, of course, but you'll wind up with about as much tape on Newton as Mark Sanchez (a not so physically gifted Top 5 Pick.)

You can't judge players by past trends alone, especially considering every player is an individual & you may have the same skill-set but different developmental curves.

619 · 12-06-2010, 04:47 PM

This kid has Lebron-esque rare physical gifts. Sure, I hated on Locker quite a bit, but you never saw me hating on this guy.

Funny thing is that half you haters will probably end up buying his jersey in due time, when you finally come to your senses that he's actually not a bad guy, and pretty darn good as well. And that he's a winner. And that he's a leader.

I actually find it hysterical. It's sad to see what JaMarcus Russell did to ruin the perception of the young, black African-American QB. Y'all would be ******* lying through your teeth if y'all told me that he has nothing to do with your opinion on Newton.

ThePudge · 12-06-2010, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 619

This kid has Lebron-esque rare physical gifts. Sure, I hated on Locker quite a bit, but you never saw me hating on this guy.

Funny thing is that half you haters will probably end up buying his jersey in due time, when you finally come to your senses that he's actually not a bad guy, and pretty darn good as well. And that he's a winner. And that he's a leader.

I actually find it hysterical. It's sad to see what JaMarcus Russell did to ruin the perception of the young, black African-American QB. Y'all would be ******* lying through your teeth if y'all told me that he has nothing to do with your opinion on Newton.

If not Russell, than Big #6 Vince Young. Of course that number 6 refers to Vince's wonderlic score. One lazy, one stupid, one...inexperienced? Give me the one that has the best film & the freakiest skill-set of all in Cam Newton.

JETS5128 · 12-06-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePudge

If not Russell, than Big #6 Vince Young. Of course that number 6 refers to Vince's wonderlic score. One lazy, one stupid, one...inexperienced? Give me the one that has the best film & the freakiest skill-set of all in Cam Newton.

Not to mention the one that by all indications has the best head on his shoulders as well

njx9 · 12-06-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 619

I actually find it hysterical. It's sad to see what JaMarcus Russell did to ruin the perception of the young, black African-American QB. Y'all would be ******* lying through your teeth if y'all told me that he has nothing to do with your opinion on Newton.

that's ******* pathetic, and a disgusting insinuation. bad enough that the only "worthwhile" thing you added was to call everyone who disagrees with you a "hater", but to suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is so stupid that they can't tell the difference between russell and newton because they're both black?

that is, without a doubt, the single most absurd, idiotic thing anyone has ever or will ever post on this board. i sincerely hope you never bother posting anything else about football again, because if this is any indication of the utter garbage that normally appears when you hit submit, everyone will be better off without reading it. or even knowing that you might've had something that almost qualified as 'thought' regarding it.

this goes for every single person who can add nothing but "haters" to every single post they make regarding the guy. it was ******* pathetic when it happened in bush threads. it was ******* pathetic when it happened in young threads. it's no less ******* moronic when it happens now.

619 · 12-06-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

that's ******* pathetic, and a disgusting insinuation. bad enough that the only "worthwhile" thing you added was to call everyone who disagrees with you a "hater", but to suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is so stupid that they can't tell the difference between russell and newton because they're both black?

that is, without a doubt, the single most absurd, idiotic thing anyone has ever or will ever post on this board. i sincerely hope you never bother posting anything else about football again, because if this is any indication of the utter garbage that normally appears when you hit submit, everyone will be better off without reading it. or even knowing that you might've had something that almost qualified as 'thought' regarding it.

this goes for every single person who can add nothing but "haters" to every single post they make regarding the guy. it was ******* pathetic when it happened in bush threads. it was ******* pathetic when it happened in young threads. it's no less ******* moronic when it happens now.

So, you're a hater? Good to know. You don't have to hide, now that I've called you out.

Babylon · 12-06-2010, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 619

So, you're a hater? Good to know. You don't have to hide, now that I've called you out.

I dont have a problem with your postion at all but can we stop using this lame term "haters" when trying to state our opinions on prospects. I hear this term in our every day discourse and it sounds like some trailer trash term.

njx9 · 12-06-2010, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 619

So, you're a hater? Good to know. You don't have to hide, now that I've called you out.

except that i'm not, but absolutely brilliant rebuttal. clearly you add a lot of value to this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babylon

I dont have a problem with your postion at all

so you actually agree with him that anyone who doesn't like newton only dislikes him because he shares similar skin pigment to jamarcus russell? wow. apparently i grossly overestimated the intelligence of this board.

prock · 12-06-2010, 05:30 PM

njx, that is far from the stupidest thing ever posted on this board. It isn't even the stupidest in the thread. But it wasn't very intelligent, that is for sure.

619 · 12-06-2010, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babylon

I dont have a problem with your postion at all but can we stop using this lame term "haters" when trying to state our opinions on prospects. I hear this term in our every day discourse and it sounds like some trailer trash term.

Okay, I'll stop using it. I've only used it in reference to Newton, though, I believe. But I think it's warranted in this case. It "appears" that there are ppl out there that genuinely don't want him to be successful because of allegations that don't even have any bearing on his performance on the field, and because he's a young, talented black athlete who has made poor decisions in his past. This immediately puts you in the Vince Young or JaMarcus Russell category, and I've seen the former name especially being thrown around in this thread. This is what irks me.

The reality is that every individual should be subjected on a case-by-case basis -- in this case from all accounts that I've read, he's matured much since his early college days. The learning curve is different for everyone. We lose sight of that sometimes.

619 · 12-06-2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prock

njx, that is far from the stupidest thing ever posted on this board. It isn't even the stupidest in the thread. But it wasn't very intelligent, that is for sure.

It was an overreaction. It was not meant to be 'intelligent'.

It's funny how njx always has to resort to personal attacks, which is obviously so hypocritical in this instance.

Just tell me that I'm wrong. I'd be fine with that.

njx9 · 12-06-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 619

It was an overreaction. It was not meant to be 'intelligent'.

It's funny how njx always has to resort to personal attacks, which is obviously so hypocritical in this instance.

Just tell me that I'm wrong. I'd be fine with that.

common misperception.
'stupidest thing ever posted' is *not* a personal attack.
'you are a ******* idiot' *is*.

alternately,
'everyone who doesn't like cam newton is a racist' *is*.

shall we continue?

BeerBaron · 12-06-2010, 05:47 PM

I have a feeling this thread is headed for a lock, then a new thread will be opened with a warning in the first post that instructs to not talk about race ala Toby Gerhart last year...

619 · 12-06-2010, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

common misperception.
'stupidest thing ever posted' is *not* a personal attack.
'you are a ******* idiot' *is*.

alternately,
'everyone who doesn't like cam newton is a racist' *is*.

shall we continue?

How is it not a personal attack? It is directed at me, and not the discussion at hand.

Now you are insinuating that I said those things. Can you please show me?

njx9 · 12-06-2010, 05:50 PM

slightly different issue, and it hasn't come up as much (since the caste idiots quit recreating accounts). though it'd be nice if it didn't come up at all.

ThePudge · 12-06-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

alternately,
'everyone who doesn't like cam newton is a racist' *is*.

shall we continue?

When was that said? Or are you forming that implication yourself? All he said is people are carrying over feelings from Russell (and/or Young's) busts and applying them to Newton as a prospect. So many people in this thread have proven that feelings from one or both of those two failing at the NFL level have affected their view of Cam. I don't see much of a problem calling some out on that. People are making stupid assumptions on both sides. I hardly think what 619 originally said was stupid or wrong in the overall context of this thread. I think he made a generalization which he probably shouldn't have, but the truth is, a lot of people seem to feel that way.

I don't think this is going to be a big racial issue either, it really doesn't have to go there. I think people just see similarities in the form of young, black, physically gifted, athletic QB with character red flags & assume that Newton is destined for the same fate as some others. I don't believe 619's post was intended for everyone that doesn't think Cam is a top prospect, but a select group here. It did come off as general, but I understood it in the context of this thread.

P-L · 12-06-2010, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 619

How is it not a personal attack? It is directed at me, and not the discussion at hand.

Now you are insinuating that I said those things. Can you please show me?

It's not hard to understand. A personal attack is an attack on YOU. There is no rule against attacking someone else's post.

njx9 · 12-06-2010, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 619

How is it not a personal attack? It is directed at me, and not the discussion at hand.

Now you are insinuating that I said those things. Can you please show me?

no, it's directed at your post.

and certainly, it was in the initial quote i made:

"It's sad to see what JaMarcus Russell did to ruin the perception of the young, black African-American QB. Y'all would be ******* lying through your teeth if y'all told me that he has nothing to do with your opinion on Newton."

wherein, you say that jamarcus russell ruined everyone's perception of black quarterbacks and that anyone who dislikes newton is holding jamarcus russell (ergo, being black) against him. thus calling me a racist. which ignores the hater garbage.

not what you meant? learn to be more careful with your words, and stop accusing people of "lying through their teeth" when you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

now back to everyone who likes newton telling us how awesome he is and everyone who doesn't think he's football jesus 'hating'.

Babylon · 12-06-2010, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

except that i'm not, but absolutely brilliant rebuttal. clearly you add a lot of value to this discussion.

so you actually agree with him that anyone who doesn't like newton only dislikes him because he shares similar skin pigment to jamarcus russell? wow. apparently i grossly overestimated the intelligence of this board.

^
Not at all, i should have said i respect his opinion and leave it at that. My problem with Newton stems from a very small resume and questionable character. Didnt mean to misrepresent my postion there.

619 · 12-06-2010, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePudge

When was that said? Or are you forming that implication yourself? All he said is people are carrying over feelings from Russell (and/or Young's) busts and applying them to Newton as a prospect. So many people in this thread have proven that feelings from one or both of those two failing at the NFL level have affected their view of Cam. I don't see much of a problem calling some out on that. People are making stupid assumptions on both sides. I hardly think what 619 originally said was stupid or wrong in the overall context of this thread. I think he made a generalization which he probably shouldn't have, but the truth is, a lot of people seem to feel that way.

I don't think this is going to be a big racial issue either, it really doesn't have to go there. I think people just see similarities in the form of young, black, physically gifted, athletic QB with character red flags & assume that Newton is destined for the same fate as some others. I don't believe 619's post was intended for everyone that doesn't think Cam is a top prospect, but a select group here. It did come off as general, but I understood it in the context of this thread.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I can come off as brash at times, but that's not really my intent. You were coherently able to communicate what I was not, and I thank you for that, ThePudge. I have much respect for you.

What njx said was far worse than anything I said. I don't understand why he has to resort to the same tactics with everyone who goes against his opinion. I didn't even know he felt so strongly about the topic, until I saw him lambaste me like that. Totally unnecessary. I'm not going to put up with it, I'm sorry.

Paranoidmoonduck · 12-06-2010, 06:58 PM

Here's the truth about statements that are designed to write off everyone who disagrees with you: they are never warranted, they are never fair, and they are the lowest form of argument. I could say a lot more on it, but ultimately we'd wind up back there. I think njx reacted a little heavily here, but he didn't have to step very far to get that kind of context from your words, and that's entirely your fault, not his.

As for Newton, he has more obvious red-flags up than either Russell or Young had by a massive margin. Maybe those flags will amount to nothing, maybe they're just a sign of things to come. None of us can say with an real certainty. But they are there and to brush them off is to ignore the heart of the Newton debate (which, by the way, is not "he's so talented how could he not succeed!?").

By the way, I think the implication that people are hoping Newton will fail is off base. I think people have trouble seeing Newton succeed in the NFL (which is a fair opinion) and also (like all human beings) like to be right, and so they get entrenched in that mode of thought.
___________________

Since none of this has been particularly on topic in regards to this thread, I'll say this. I'm not a huge fan of Newton. His success in this offense shows that he's an extraordinary talent, but trying to project him to the NFL based on his game film beyond the barest of deductions is essentially futile. My biggest concern regarding Tebow last draft wasn't his throwing motion (although that certainly didn't help at all), it was how it was obvious he wasn't being asked to do any mid-play reads that would even approach what is asked of an NFL quarterback. It's the same deal with Newton, and no degree of running or throwing ability lessens that issue. It makes a kid a more attractive risk, but it doesn't lessen that risk. I would add that while I respect the hell out of ThePudge and all the work he does, he also has a habit of falling for physical specimens at quarterback, which I've always sort of felt is missing the point of why some QB's succeed and some fail.

critesy · 12-06-2010, 07:28 PM

i hope newton stays so we can have this discussion again next year. (and for auburns sake of having another good year)

Scott Wright · 12-06-2010, 07:28 PM

I'm going to warn everyone to keep race out of this discussion, it's irrelevant.

If you decide to go there you will be on very, very thin ice and risk being banned.

ThePudge · 12-06-2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

I would add that while I respect the hell out of ThePudge and all the work he does, he also has a habit of falling for physical specimens at quarterback, which I've always sort of felt is missing the point of why some QB's succeed and some fail.

Not that I consider what you said to be offensive, but I don't usually gravitate to the more physically gifted Quarterbacks. I'd say my work started really improving in quality in 2008 and since then is the only part of my work I feel very strongly about. My highest graded QBs in the 2008-2010 portion were as follows:

1. Sam Bradford
2. Matt Ryan
3. Matthew Stafford
4. Mark Sanchez
5. Josh Freeman
6. Chad Henne
7. Jimmy Clausen
8. Joe Flacco
9. Brian Brohm
10. Colt McCoy

I would guess you are referring to my pre-season projection that Ryan Mallett was the best college football QB prospect. Needless to say, I no longer hold that opinion.

I have much more of an issue this season with Mallett's system which puts everything right in front of him. The vast majority of his passing yardage has come from YAC, a lot of screen & crossing routes in space. His accuracy has not really improved, but his receivers definitely have, so Mallett's the one that has looked questionable at times. I have legitimate worries about his intensity rubbing teammates/coaches the wrong way. He seems to hold his receivers a bit too accountable and shows signs of frustration at times.

I still think he's a Top 20 prospect in the coming draft, but I've been going back & forth between he and Locker as my #3/4 Quarterbacks for the upcoming class.

My recent Quarterback track record is actually something I'm pretty happy about as I saw both Bradford & Ryan as special prospects. Sam was the highest grade for a prospect I've had since 08'. I won't pretend it's a done deal though that those two were the best out of that list (Stafford could get healthy, Freeman looks great.) I value guys that have the tools physically and mentally. Players who can make all the throws, and guys I think give a fresh new face/attitude to their new home high in the draft. I value good teammates at the Quarterback position who can gain the respect of his veteran team.

This year I think Luck and Newton both fit the bill as QBs I'll be very high on. I think both are franchise QBs and perhaps All-Pro players down the line. Locker and Mallett are both in the intermediate level for me as prospects, I'll likely grade them between Mark Sanchez & Josh Freeman.

I'm not sure I'm as high on Luck as some others & though he's having a great run at Stanford, I'm not sure he'll grade out higher than Bradford/Ryan for me. The sky is the limit though for both he and Newton in my opinion.

Caulibflower · 12-07-2010, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePudge

I have much more of an issue this season with Mallett's system which puts everything right in front of him. The vast majority of his passing yardage has come from YAC, a lot of screen & crossing routes in space. His accuracy has not really improved, but his receivers definitely have, so Mallett's the one that has looked questionable at times. I have legitimate worries about his intensity rubbing teammates/coaches the wrong way. He seems to hold his receivers a bit too accountable and shows signs of frustration at times.

Is there any place where one could find a QB's passing yardage totals/YPA with his receivers' YAC subtracted? That'd be a pretty interesting statistic.