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View Poll Results: Who's gonna be the best of these QB's when all is said and done?
Josh Freeman, Bucs 59 15.05%
Matthew Stafford, Lions 126 32.14%
Sam Bradford, Rams 76 19.39%
Mark Sanchez, Jets 19 4.85%
Joe Flacco, Ravens 33 8.42%
Matt Ryan, Falcons 79 20.15%
Voters: 392. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-06-2010, 02:15 PM    (permalink
SchizophrenicBatman
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Here's the bottom line with Phillip Rivers:

He's underachieved his whole career. For a good 3 year stretch, he had the most talented team in the league and he underachieved with them every time. Last year he should have went to the SB, and he underachieved.

This year he has the best offense and defense statistically, and while I understand STs are a big role in their record, Rivers is still underachieving with that team. They should be the division leader and they're not.

While his numbers are impressive, is it really that big of a deal? Peyton and Brees both have thrown for more yards, and Kyle Orton has thrown in the same ballpark with a similar situation: no run game and mediocre WRs.

So how much weight should we put into a ton of passing yards? Bc me personally, I don't put much weight into it at all. Whoopidy doo.

Rodgers needs to win a big game. Come through in the clutch. I haven't seen either from him.

The true test of Rivers will be the upcoming years. He's been given the luxury of sleep walking into the playoffs for the past 4 years with a terrible AFC West, but it seems like the Chiefs and Raiders are finally starting to make this division look competitive as early as next year.

So let's see if he can compete in a tough division. Ben has done it his whole career. Eli has done it his whole career. Hell, even Rodgers has done it.

Starting next year, the AFC West should be competitive. Now let's see if he can step his game up and perform in a tough division where the playoffs are no longer a formality.
basically all I get from this is what I said: he gets no credit until he wins the super bowl.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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basically all I get from this is what I said: he gets no credit until he wins the super bowl.
that's not entirely true. if his teams continue to be talented enough to win a SB and he winds up never accomplishing that, then yes, you can say that.

or, if he takes a team that isn't talented enough to make a decent playoff run (ie win 2 games and lose the AFCCG) and overachieves with it then he'll get credit as well.

but he has done neither of those. he needs to do 1 or the other, or both to be in the same tier as guys like Brady, Peyton, Brees, and Ben.

Anyway, we're detracting from the point of this thread, so this is the last post I'll have regarding this subject matter.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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basically all I get from this is what I said: he gets no credit until he wins the super bowl.
Or it could be the whole 3-4 postseason record with a 79 QB rating in the playoffs.

I don't know why people have such an aversion to using the postseason in judging how good players are. I really don't care about Philip Rivers and Peyton Manning mudhole stomping their perennially terrible divisions every season.

Call me crazy, but I care a lot more about how you do against the league's best competition in a "win or go home" environment.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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There isn't really anywhere to go with this thread after the last week was analyzed. My opinion on these guys hasn't changed any from where it was in Week 5. If anything, my opinion that Freeman is going to be great was just further solidified in this week's losing effort. He was leading a great last drive until he got picked off on a good play by the DB

As for Rivers' team, that gets overplayed when Tomlinson is sitting on the bench sulking every playoff game and Norv is now his HC. I tend to give guys passes on their first couple years starting but I absolutely agree that he squandered opportunities with those teams
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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Or it could be the whole 3-4 postseason record with a 79 QB rating in the playoffs.
I think it's funny that people rip on regular season stats then bring up QB rating in the playoffs. I think Jake Delhomme had like the 2nd highest post season QB rating prior to his 5 INT Arizona game.

Rivers had a terrible QB rating the AFC Championship Game he played against an undeafeted New England team with a Torn ACL but that was absolutely a great performance. Poor passes and INTs included
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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I think it's funny that people rip on regular season stats then bring up QB rating in the playoffs. I think Jake Delhomme had like the 2nd highest post season QB rating prior to his 5 INT Arizona game.

Rivers had a terrible QB rating the AFC Championship Game he played against an undeafeted New England team with a Torn ACL but that was absolutely a great performance. Poor passes and INTs included
I'm just interested as a division rival what you think of Matt Ryan. Maybe this would be easier for you after next week when we play you guys but I guess you can go off of what you have seen so far.
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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I would love to hear a legit argument for Flacco. That makes me laugh. I think he is the most overrated young QB in the league.

Lets see:

- Still very mistake prone.
- If you look at his last two throws when they mattered last night - he threw them with zero confidence. And I am not going to even comment on the Troy sack fumble. Every QB is getting killed there.

If Flacco wins anything important in his career - he will be carried by his teammates.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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From what I've seen, Flacco's biggest problems is that he has poor pocket awareness and isn't particularly good at going through his progressions if his first read and checkdown are covered.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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I will say Flacco was very impressive early in the game against a very strong Steelers defense. That first touchdown drive he had plenty of very well thrown balls. If he could have carried that to the second half we wouldn't be having this discussion. His statline for the game is exactly why I don't like judging QBs by looking at the box score. If you didn't watch the game and looked at Flacco's stats, you'd think he played a great game. What happened on those final two drives can't happen. You have a cannon for an arm Flacco, you have to be able to hit Dickson on that last throw.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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My lord that is strange-looking group of young men.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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I will say Flacco was very impressive early in the game against a very strong Steelers defense. That first touchdown drive he had plenty of very well thrown balls. If he could have carried that to the second half we wouldn't be having this discussion. His statline for the game is exactly why I don't like judging QBs by looking at the box score. If you didn't watch the game and looked at Flacco's stats, you'd think he played a great game. What happened on those final two drives can't happen. You have a cannon for an arm Flacco, you have to be able to hit Dickson on that last throw.
The thing is we rarely had 3 step drops until this game. I wodner if the lack of experience with 3 step drops would that have helped. Also i wonder if Dickson route was for him to just stay there in the flat. Regardless Flacco MUST get that pass.

My question is what happened to Joe Cool his rookie year. If you guys remember everyone was obsessed w/ his pocket prescense as a rookie. A complete 180 from Kyle Boller. Now his pocket prescense is terrible.
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Here's the bottom line with Phillip Rivers:

He's underachieved his whole career. For a good 3 year stretch, he had the most talented team in the league and he underachieved with them every time. Last year he should have went to the SB, and he underachieved.

This year he has the best offense and defense statistically, and while I understand STs are a big role in their record, Rivers is still underachieving with that team. They should be the division leader and they're not.

While his numbers are impressive, is it really that big of a deal? Peyton and Brees both have thrown for more yards, and Kyle Orton has thrown in the same ballpark with a similar situation: no run game and mediocre WRs.

So how much weight should we put into a ton of passing yards? Bc me personally, I don't put much weight into it at all. Whoopidy doo.

Rodgers needs to win a big game. Come through in the clutch. I haven't seen either from him.

The true test of Rivers will be the upcoming years. He's been given the luxury of sleep walking into the playoffs for the past 4 years with a terrible AFC West, but it seems like the Chiefs and Raiders are finally starting to make this division look competitive as early as next year.

So let's see if he can compete in a tough division. Ben has done it his whole career. Eli has done it his whole career. Hell, even Rodgers has done it.

Starting next year, the AFC West should be competitive. Now let's see if he can step his game up and perform in a tough division where the playoffs are no longer a formality.
The Chargers had the most talented team in the league once, in 2006. Since then, the talent level has eroded significantly. The average fan might be able to name 2 or 3 defensive starters. Offensive line hasn't been better than average for five years.

Last season, the Chargers overachieved with a so-so defense and no running game, and going 4-0 against the NFC East (once thought to be the leagues strongest division).

I'm okay with people ranking Ben ahead of Rivers, but your reasoning is a joke, BBD.
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Yesterday wasn't one of Bradford's best. Thankfully they played the Cardinals. Divisional road wins are good no matter how you played. At 6-6, the Rams control their own destiny. I have a feeling it's going to come down to week 17 at Seattle for the division title. Bradford needs to keep getting better each and every week for the Rams to have a chance. A healthy DX will help too.
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Old 12-06-2010, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Ryan will have the most success IMO.
I am proud of my post and sticking to it.
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Old 12-06-2010, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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From previous posts, Roethlisbuerger is way better than Rivers. Rivers is a fantasy QB, but I'd rather have Roethlisbuerger in the playoffs. Dude knows how to get it done when it counts. Thats what separates him from the likes of Eli Manning and Phillip Rivers. I would put him at 4 in my top 5 QBs with Rodgers at 5.
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Old 12-06-2010, 09:15 PM    (permalink
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I'm just interested as a division rival what you think of Matt Ryan. Maybe this would be easier for you after next week when we play you guys but I guess you can go off of what you have seen so far.
Sadly my opinion is probably not worth as much as you'd think because I simply haven't seen Ryan that much outside of the normal national coverage and the 2 Panther games every year. For some reason I've seen more of Freeman recently.

With that said, I think Ryan is awesome. That garbage people started about him reaching his ceiling was just that. He can make all the throws (and has had to make some very difficult ones - going all the way back to his college years), he has great pocket mobility and most importantly his team believes in him. Now, he still has fits of inconsistency and Roddy White becoming one of the best WRs in the NFL has helped him a lot. Overall, I think he's similar in value to Eli and can maybe be more. Don't think he has Brady upside in him like some suggest, but you never know. I would kill for a guy like him on the Panthers. This franchise has never had someone that good

Short summary:

Can you win a SB with him? Yes
Can he single-handedly make a smaller market team a top prime time attraction? Unsure - leaning towards no
Is he better than Joe Flacco? Hell yes
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:56 AM    (permalink
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Awesome showing by Sanchez tonight.
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:54 AM    (permalink
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When it comes to the young guns like Bradford, Ryan, Freeman, Flacco, Stafford, and Sanchez; you have to remember one thing: There is a difference in experience.

Matt Ryan struggled a bit in his 2nd season and has really hit his stride in his 3rd season as a pro in becoming an elite QB. Flacco didn't struggle in his 2nd sophmore year, but has vastly improved this year in making his team a legitimate super bowl contender also.

Freeman, Sanchez, and Stafford are both in their 2nd years. From what I see from Sanchez, I honestly don't think he will be better than Stafford and Freeman. He has the makings to be a franchise qb as he is a great leader and work ethic, but I think he benefits too much from all the veteran experience surrounding him. Not saying he won't be a good QB, but I think the other 2 will be considered top 10 qb's some day and he might be an above average starter (Eli Manning). If Stafford can stay on the field, this guy can be dynamite. The Lions would have been a completely different team this year if he didn't miss so much time. Only concern I have with him is why is he so fragile? Freeman, as a Bucs fan, I couldn't be more happy to have him as our QB. He's taken major steps as he was considered as a raw prospect coming out. What he is doing with a bunch of rookie's surrounding him as a 2nd year pro and putting his team on his back pretty much says something. I just can't wait to see how much better he'l be when these young guys start to gain more and experience and develop in the next few years.

I knew Sam Bradford would be good, but I didn't think he'd have this type of season. I don't have his current stats in front of me, but I know they are fantastic for a rookie and probably best rookie qb since Dan Marino. He's accurate, smart, has great arm strength and most of all, he's picked up the NFL game quickly coming from the spread in college. Get this guy some weapons and he will really be great.

To rank them now:
1. Ryan
2. Flacco
3. Freeman
4. Bradford
5. Sanchez
6. Stafford (bc he can't stay healthy)

3-4 years from now:
1. Ryan
2. Bradford
3. Stafford (If he can stay healthy)
4. Freeman
5. Flacco
6. Sanchez
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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When it comes to the young guns like Bradford, Ryan, Freeman, Flacco, Stafford, and Sanchez; you have to remember one thing: There is a difference in experience.

Matt Ryan struggled a bit in his 2nd season and has really hit his stride in his 3rd season as a pro in becoming an elite QB. Flacco didn't struggle in his 2nd sophmore year, but has vastly improved this year in making his team a legitimate super bowl contender also.

Freeman, Sanchez, and Stafford are both in their 2nd years. From what I see from Sanchez, I honestly don't think he will be better than Stafford and Freeman. He has the makings to be a franchise qb as he is a great leader and work ethic, but I think he benefits too much from all the veteran experience surrounding him. Not saying he won't be a good QB, but I think the other 2 will be considered top 10 qb's some day and he might be an above average starter (Eli Manning). If Stafford can stay on the field, this guy can be dynamite. The Lions would have been a completely different team this year if he didn't miss so much time. Only concern I have with him is why is he so fragile? Freeman, as a Bucs fan, I couldn't be more happy to have him as our QB. He's taken major steps as he was considered as a raw prospect coming out. What he is doing with a bunch of rookie's surrounding him as a 2nd year pro and putting his team on his back pretty much says something. I just can't wait to see how much better he'l be when these young guys start to gain more and experience and develop in the next few years.

I knew Sam Bradford would be good, but I didn't think he'd have this type of season. I don't have his current stats in front of me, but I know they are fantastic for a rookie and probably best rookie qb since Dan Marino. He's accurate, smart, has great arm strength and most of all, he's picked up the NFL game quickly coming from the spread in college. Get this guy some weapons and he will really be great.

To rank them now:
1. Ryan
2. Flacco
3. Freeman
4. Bradford
5. Sanchez
6. Stafford (bc he can't stay healthy)

3-4 years from now:
1. Ryan
2. Bradford
3. Stafford (If he can stay healthy)
4. Freeman
5. Flacco
6. Sanchez
I would rank them the same, with the exception of Flacco & Freeman. I'd put Flacco above him.
And Stafford is either going to fizzle out with the injuries, or he's gonna stay healthy finally and then I might challenge Ryan & Bradford for #1, considering Megatron there will help him rack up big stats in a windless climate.

I think Sanchez has cemented his position there at the bottom, and I suspect there are Browns fans who believe Colt McCoy clearly deserves to be mentioned above the charismatic model.
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Young QB's

1. Bradford
2. Stafford
3. Sanchez
4. Freeman
5. Ryan
6. Flacco

The reason I place Bradford at #1 is because all 5 other QB's have a far better wideout core. I would hate to see what Bradford could have done if they would have gotten Moss off waivers or possibly picked up someone in the upcoming draft. I don't really think Flacco belongs on this list I feel like he is a product of the system built around him.
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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Young QB's

1. Bradford
2. Stafford
3. Sanchez
4. Freeman
5. Ryan
6. Flacco

The reason I place Bradford at #1 is because all 5 other QB's have a far better wideout core. I would hate to see what Bradford could have done if they would have gotten Moss off waivers or possibly picked up someone in the upcoming draft. I don't really think Flacco belongs on this list I feel like he is a product of the system built around him.
I wanted to give you + rep because I see someone dinged you already for your first post, but having Matt Ryan at #5 and Sanchez #3... I can't +rep that. Hard to argue about Sam Bradford though, with that cast or receivers in St Louis.
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Old 01-03-2011, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Any changes?
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Old 01-03-2011, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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As the season went on I became higher and higher on Freeman. He has shown good composure and some of the best physical tools out of this group. I really like what I see in him.
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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As the season went on I became higher and higher on Freeman. He has shown good composure and some of the best physical tools out of this group. I really like what I see in him.
I'm telling you guys, the more you watch him, the more you will fall in love with him. Dude is an absolute stud. He has the best physical skillset of all NFL quarterbacks and hasn't even started scratching the surface of what he's capable of.
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Let's see Freeman do it again. Impressive year, but I will be interested to see if he (that whole team really) is capable of doing it again.

I think he and Ryan really separated themselves from this pack this year though. *Prepares for Flacco's QB rating to be posted*
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