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Old 11-11-2008, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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Default Xs and Os thread.

This for people who are interested in more than just stats. I know one member Pmed me to help him understand some stuff so perhaps there are others who want to learn more about the game. Ideally a Xs and Os section is ideally the best way to do this.

*** Ork Wang, Here is the overall thing you want to use as reference. Different teams draw it up differently but this is an easy one to remember, so I always base my terminology to this and than covert it if need be.

That's step one before we address the various fronts in a 4-3 and 3-4 defense.

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Old 11-11-2008, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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What is the difference between outside shades and heads up?
any difference between 7 and 6 or 2 and 3?
whats the difference between 2 and 2i? is 2i more inside closer to the a gap?

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Old 11-11-2008, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang View Post
What is the difference between outside shades and heads up?
any difference between 7 and 6 or 2 and 3?
whats the difference between 2 and 2i?

+rep
outside shade you'll lineup on the outside shoulder of your opposing lineman, heads up you'll line up directly parallel to him head to head. that's the difference between 7 and 6, 7 is on the outside shoulder of the TE, 6 would be heads up on the TE and 6i would be on the Inside shoulder of the TE
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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Yup exactly what the guy above said. You have to remember defenses just don't run fronts for the fun of it. Fronts, blitzes, stunts and coverages are all related. So that's why you scout out the fronts. Usually if a blitz or stunt it coming, especially in college and in HS there is an adjustment to the front.

One example is I am breaking down film for a HS playoff game coming up. So I saw on tape that the defense has a 5, 3, 1, 5 technique across the board when given a 2 X 2 shotgun formation. The formation was Shotgun right- Double Slot. Now when they zone blitzed the LE was at a 4i instead of a 5, which allowed room for the Backer to blitz. So small changes at that level help key what the defense is doing.

In the NFL, it's the same but they have can run many, many, blitzes from 1 look. The key is doing many things out of 1 look, to confuse offenses. Now the offense will counter that via scheming. That's my side of the ball. So you base your pass protection and QB drop based on what you want to do to counter the defense.
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Since when is John Madden a registered user?
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Since when is John Madden a registered user?
You don't have to be Madden to want to learn more about the game.
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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I was joking man. Thanks for the thread quite informative!
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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*** ork wang,

Now what like I pmed you, there are about 20 give or take a few 4-3 fronts. Those are all textbook fronts and from there DC's have the luxury of tagging each individual player. So like I said the 4-3 front is:


40, 00, 40
6i, 2i, 2i, 6i

That's going from the offenses right to left. So RE to LE, Will to SAM.


So now DCs can gameplan by adjusting one chess piece rather then changing the whole front. So for example, the call might be 4-3 SAM Hip.

So the SAM backer has a different tag. So the SAM can be at a 70 or 80, depending on what the DC defines the tag to be. There are many tags a DC can use.

HIP
Alley
Box
Skin
OX

Whatever he wants to name it, he will...

So now you add versatility to the DL and LBs because they have to be together in their movements to keep the intergrity of the defense together.
You can also tag other positions. That's where the "box" term came in. That's usually a safety tag.

So 4-3 SAM HIP, $ Box.

So now you have two custom tags. That defense now is reading run first, which means you usually will have 1 high safety. If it's man, it's C1, if it's zone it could be C3.

Also, this is one big thing fans generalize. I've talked to coaches who attended Pro coaches lectures, and they define the Box as a 4 X 1 zone. So 4 yards deep, with 1 yard from the tackle to tackle. That's the box. So usually fans come up with crazy stuff like 9 men in the box, when in reality it's not true. The Lbs at 5 or 6 yards are not in the box per say. What the fan means is that they are thinking run first, but the box is 4 X1, with players on the edge so if it's a run, then the defenders can react quicker.
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1z03b1wveM
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Good post man. Useful stuff to many here. It goes beyond the stats like you said.
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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I need moar!
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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This dosent help my fantasy football team!
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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So what's next? Zone Blocking? I'm trying to think of something I could use some more elaboration on.
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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Wish there were more threads like this.

I really want a "coaches understanding" of some of the fundamentals.
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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Most of the stuff you have to see to actually understand. Words will just confuse you when learning stuff like this. Well, I would be confused.

Rep and Posts are the same: Weird.
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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I really have been in a flexbone happy mood recently. for those who don't know this is the flexbone.

This is what Georgia Tech runs. And Navy/Army/Air Force. Nebraska won those National Championships in the 90's running this. Origins go back to the 60's and the "Four Horsemen" at Notre Dame. This is basic veer and it is a staple of the offense. here are some of the Pro's and Con's of the Flexbone:
Sample playbook:
http://flexboneassociation.com/playbook/playbook.htm

Pros:
-Makes Defense play every gap.
-Almost everything out of same look.
-Downhill.
-Ball Control
-Clock Control

Cons
:
-Little Misdirection.
-Useless passing game.
-Not meant to overpower the defense every play, but wear them down.
-Only great when ahead or tied. Hard to come back with this offense because it isn't a big play offense.
-Hard to get speed in space.

Any Questions, feedback, etc would be appreciated.
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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I also made a thread similar to this based on the Wade Phillips 46 defense..with some of the ties to Buddy Ryan...feel free to take a look and comment there or here about it.

Phillips 46
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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I am not a big fan of the 46, I think it is best as a situational defense.


Also how would anyone think a spread offense would work in the NFL? I think it would do alright if you have 2 nice WR and a 3 down back who could catch. I would base it on short to intermediate passes, having 4 WR would lower the LB on the field so it would give your RB the opportunity to run. If you blitz you could have the RB pick it up and have a slot WR run a slant. And if they have LB to stop the run you could get 1 on 1 coverage w/ your WRs. Do you think it will be used more often in the NFL? I was talking to my friend today and he thinks it will.
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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I love the Flexbone, all my high school ran. When it gets to college is when it is the most effective because they recruit athletes and dont really put an ideal size on players like the NFL. I wish it was ran in the NFL every now and then but no one has the personnel. It's slightly more complicated than 'Wildcat.'
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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I love the Flexbone, all my high school ran. When it gets to college is when it is the most effective because they recruit athletes and dont really put an ideal size on players like the NFL. I wish it was ran in the NFL every now and then but no one has the personnel. It's slightly more complicated than 'Wildcat.'
Its not going to be as simple as that because every defensive linemen will simply move with the motion of the play, giving little room for the fullback if its give and then there's a DE that could as well murder your QB (I certainly wouldn't want Troy Smith optioning Julius Peppers)

Its somewhat similar to the Midline, just that I like midlines better:

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Old 11-11-2008, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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http://www.davesez.com/archives/000904.php Good read for zoneblocking. I ran a zone blocking offense in high school. Since I don't feel like explaining it you could just look at this site.
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ravens1991 View Post
I am not a big fan of the 46, I think it is best as a situational defense.


Also how would anyone think a spread offense would work in the NFL? I think it would do alright if you have 2 nice WR and a 3 down back who could catch. I would base it on short to intermediate passes, having 4 WR would lower the LB on the field so it would give your RB the opportunity to run. If you blitz you could have the RB pick it up and have a slot WR run a slant. And if they have LB to stop the run you could get 1 on 1 coverage w/ your WRs. Do you think it will be used more often in the NFL? I was talking to my friend today and he thinks it will.
I just think the true 46 died because teams just can't acquire the talent it takes to run it since the salary cap has been in place. Two man corners that can be left on islands...with a deep ballhawk safety...and two elite rushers....teams just can't acquire/afford that on the defensive side of the ball to run it anymore.
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Old 11-11-2008, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by tjsunstein View Post
I love the Flexbone, all my high school ran. When it gets to college is when it is the most effective because they recruit athletes and dont really put an ideal size on players like the NFL. I wish it was ran in the NFL every now and then but no one has the personnel. It's slightly more complicated than 'Wildcat.'
My high school ran the Wing T with a pair of 190 pound, speedy guards flying out to the edge every play. I played defense and believe me it's pretty funny to watch when it's rolling.
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