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Old 11-26-2010, 04:44 PM    (permalink
BlindSite
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The Panthers defense is fine every where except DT when healthy, the running game is fine when there's at least an inkling of passing, they don't need to be blown up, they need a legitimate quarterback of the future and an additional receiving threat. Other than that the team is pretty solid top to bottom.

Injuries and a severe lack of depth who're out of puberty hurt coupled with a coaching staff who simply doesn't give a **** hurts.
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Old 11-26-2010, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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Ya, I don't know why people are hating on McDaniels for his drafting. Sure, he drafted Tebow... Other than that, it was a great draft (and if he can do what he thinks he can with Tebow, the whole thing was really good).

He built up the OL, got a high-ceiling WR who he's brought along pretty well, and got a really nice CB in the middle rounds.

He does what New England does. He goes out and gets the guys he wants and doesn't play the "value" game (most draftniks seem to really not get this concept at all which is frustrating). Maybe he missed on some guys, but McDaniels is a coach who is famous for figuring **** out. We saw that in New England when he initially struggled as a playcaller before becoming the best in the NFL, and we saw a bit of it this past draft.

People harp on the Alphonso Smith thing too much. The guy was highly thought-of around here, and he didn't work out for Denver. Before Thanksgiving, he was having a pretty good year for Detroit.

Yeah, the defense needs work, but so did the offense. The defense, with Dumervil, should have had enough playmakers to get away with getting the offense built right. It was a gamble, and it didn't work out.
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Old 11-26-2010, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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People harp on the Alphonso Smith thing because it wasn't just a bust of a pick. He traded a 2010 first rounder, a pick that ended up being 14th overall, for Smith. And the Moreno pick was pretty awful as well - only freakish RBs should be considered that high...

I just can't see any way to defend McD at this point.

Cutler/Marshall hosted the AFC Championship game... as soon as McD gets there that foundation breaks down... OK fine. Move on, poor drafting, the Hillis trade... etc. Ugh.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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People harp on the Alphonso Smith thing because it wasn't just a bust of a pick. He traded a 2010 first rounder, a pick that ended up being 14th overall, for Smith. And the Moreno pick was pretty awful as well - only freakish RBs should be considered that high...

I just can't see any way to defend McD at this point.

Cutler/Marshall hosted the AFC Championship game... as soon as McD gets there that foundation breaks down... OK fine. Move on, poor drafting, the Hillis trade... etc. Ugh.
AFCCG was the year before we got Jay and Brandon(and Doom and Scheff). Defense never held up enough to get Cutler to the playoffs.

And good 2010 draft(debateable, it's less than a season in), does not make up for taking a massive step backwards in 2 seasons. Two years ago, the Broncos were a bright young team with stars at key offensive positions, another emerging WR in Eddie Royal, but yes the defense was awful.

Today, we have Clady on offense and that's it. Defense is still in shambles minus Dumervil. That is NOT progress. This team has ZERO direction, and he needs to go. Another failed Billy disciple who people hyped up because he worked for a great coach, but a great coach he is not.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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Well, quite honestly, I'm a fan of McDaniels but felt he was a poor choice for the Broncos. They had a good offense with a great, young, future HC playcaller in Jeremy Bates. They should have hired Spag or Schwartz to fix the defense.

But since they did go with McDaniels, you have to let him do what he was going to do. Completely rebuild the offense, then move on to the defense. It's not McDaniels' fault, it's the front office for making the wrong choice. Pointless to go back on that now that he's got the offense the way he wants it and can focus on the defense now.

If they make a coaching change now, there's no one that can operate the offense he runs, and the defense is a work-in-progress. So whoever came in would have to rebuild the offense again and still have issues on defense. With McDaniels, they just need to work on the defense, and they'll be set.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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So you've got two mistakes from his first draft which I acknowledged he was ill prepared for? That "killed him"? Chill scrote, of course ET would be a huge help for that team, but Alphonso Smith was a prospect who a lot of people liked a lot despite his miniscule stature. And again he was trying to rebuild the locker room to make it smart and harder working, both Moreno and Smith where mistakes where he was ill prepared and so erred on the the side of caution while trying to rebuild that locker room.

With Ayers and Doom they've got a place a start and from what I've seen McBean, Cox and I think it was Joe Mays have looked like they could contribute going forward. Plus David Veikune has potential at ILB and might end up developing into another useful player. Add a first round stud for the DL, a big body to groom behind Jwilliams, another LB or two and some DBs and that D can be pretty solid by the end of next season, right as Tebow should be stepping into the starting role and bey bey is approaching that magically third season when a lot of young raw WRs really explode.

Frankly if McDaniels can do for the D what he did for the O this year, I think they'll be one more draft away from seriously contending for the division and playoffs up to the very the end of the season.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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So you've got two mistakes from his first draft which I acknowledged he was ill prepared for? That "killed him"? Chill scrote, of course ET would be a huge help for that team, but Alphonso Smith was a prospect who a lot of people liked a lot despite his miniscule stature. And again he was trying to rebuild the locker room to make it smart and harder working, both Moreno and Smith where mistakes where he was ill prepared and so erred on the the side of caution while trying to rebuild that locker room.

With Ayers and Doom they've got a place a start and from what I've seen McBean, Cox and I think it was Joe Mays have looked like they could contribute going forward. Plus David Veikune has potential at ILB and might end up developing into another useful player. Add a first round stud for the DL, a big body to groom behind Jwilliams, another LB or two and some DBs and that D can be pretty solid by the end of next season, right as Tebow should be stepping into the starting role and bey bey is approaching that magically third season when a lot of young raw WRs really explode.

Frankly if McDaniels can do for the D what he did for the O this year, I think they'll be one more draft away from seriously contending for the division and playoffs up to the very the end of the season.
Alphonso Smith was well thought of here, but every single Broncos fan on this site hated the idea of trading a 1st for him. That's the hang up. If he drafted him straight up and he failed, that's excusable. But trading a first for a second and having him gone in a year is awful.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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Alphonso Smith was well thought of here, but every single Broncos fan on this site hated the idea of trading a 1st for him. That's the hang up. If he drafted him straight up and he failed, that's excusable. But trading a first for a second and having him gone in a year is awful.
Yes, he did make two insanely terrible mistakes, but they already haven't fired him for those mistakes and he showed immense progress with a really good draft this past year. If he has another good draft this year I think he'll be there for a long time, if he has another WTF draft this year then yeah, you fire him after the year if there's been no progress.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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Yes, he did make two insanely terrible mistakes, but they already haven't fired him for those mistakes and he showed immense progress with a really good draft this past year. If he has another good draft this year I think he'll be there for a long time, if he has another WTF draft this year then yeah, you fire him after the year if there's been no progress.
That's the exact same attitude that kept Wade Phillips employed for two more seasons after the 2008 Cowboys' season-ending meltdown when it became clear to everyone but the ownership that Wade Phillips was a terrible head coach who could never earn the respect of his team.

That's also the same attitude that kept Brad Childress employed long after it was obvious to everyone that the man didn't have a clue when it came to coaching and play-calling.

Some things are just patently obvious and don't change. McDaniels is an idiot. Only an idiot would trade away a future first round pick to draft a cornerback in the second round of the current draft. If he exhibits idiotic behavior one year, chances are, he's going to exhibit idiotic behavior for the rest of his career.

I mean, good luck with him and all, if you believe in him, but my personal opinion is that the Broncos are f****ed if they keep McDaniels around as head coach/GM. He's an offensive coordinator, at best.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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That's the exact same attitude that kept Wade Phillips employed for two more seasons after the 2008 Cowboys' season-ending meltdown when it became clear to everyone but the ownership that Wade Phillips was a terrible head coach who could never earn the respect of his team.

That's also the same attitude that kept Brad Childress employed long after it was obvious to everyone that the man didn't have a clue when it came to coaching and play-calling.

Some things are just patently obvious and don't change. McDaniels is an idiot. Only an idiot would trade away a future first round pick to draft a cornerback in the second round of the current draft. If he exhibits idiotic behavior one year, chances are, he's going to exhibit idiotic behavior for the rest of his career.

I mean, good luck with him and all, if you believe in him, but my personal opinion is that the Broncos are f****ed if they keep McDaniels around as head coach/GM. He's an offensive coordinator, at best.
This is COMPLETELY wrong.

Say what you want about the Moreno pick and the Alphonso Smith trade(s), but McDaniels has been a very good coach on the field, and controls his lockerroom. He hasn't lost any players, and the ones he's had problems with are ******* gone. Get out of here comparing McDaniels, as a coach, to Wade Phillips and Brad Childress. That's just completely out of bounds.

Even as a GM, he's been solid. People like to jump on every "unconventional" move he makes (even though he's just doing what's done in New England and Kansas City).
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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This is COMPLETELY wrong.

Say what you want about the Moreno pick and the Alphonso Smith trade(s), but McDaniels has been a very good coach on the field, and controls his lockerroom. He hasn't lost any players, and the ones he's had problems with are ******* gone. Get out of here comparing McDaniels, as a coach, to Wade Phillips and Brad Childress. That's just completely out of bounds.

Even as a GM, he's been solid. People like to jump on every "unconventional" move he makes (even though he's just doing what's done in New England and Kansas City).
My point is not that he is plagued by the exact same problems as Wade Phillips and Brad Childress - he actually is a solid coach and offensive coordinator - my point is that he's an idiot when it comes to GM duties and roster management, and he likely will remain an idiot in that regard just as Wade Phillips and Brad Childress remained bad coaches despite people saying "give them another chance - that was an anomaly" after some questionable games.

My point is that this attitude that people have that discounts terrible decisions such as the Alphonso Smith pick - this attitude of "well, it was his first draft, he'll get better" is the exact same attitude that keeps people employed in positions they are unqualified to be employed in for far too long.

Brad Childress and Wade Phillips are coordinators, and not head coaches. It was apparent to smart people long before they were fired that they were not fit for the jobs. It is apparent at this stage that Josh McDaniels is not fit for the GM's job and should be an offensive coordinator, or at best a head coach without personnel power.

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Old 11-26-2010, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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The only teams that shouldn't "build up" would probably be the Bengals and Panthers.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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That's the exact same attitude that kept Wade Phillips employed for two more seasons after the 2008 Cowboys' season-ending meltdown when it became clear to everyone but the ownership that Wade Phillips was a terrible head coach who could never earn the respect of his team.

That's also the same attitude that kept Brad Childress employed long after it was obvious to everyone that the man didn't have a clue when it came to coaching and play-calling.

Some things are just patently obvious and don't change. McDaniels is an idiot. Only an idiot would trade away a future first round pick to draft a cornerback in the second round of the current draft. If he exhibits idiotic behavior one year, chances are, he's going to exhibit idiotic behavior for the rest of his career.

I mean, good luck with him and all, if you believe in him, but my personal opinion is that the Broncos are f****ed if they keep McDaniels around as head coach/GM. He's an offensive coordinator, at best.
McDaniels had a great second draft so yeah, he's not an idiot. Those coaches were just bad coaches, their teams won despite them because of their talent, no one in their right mind would suggest Denver has a wealth of talent. If you're really dumb enough to believe that a poorly prepared first time Head Coach can't learn from his mistakes is simply idiotic, especially when McDaniels showed obvious improvements with a great second draft. I mean I can take your flawed logic and assume that because McDaniels had a great draft his second year he'll only have great drafts from now on...would be just as dumb.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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My point is not that he is plagued by the exact same problems as Wade Phillips and Brad Childress - he actually is a solid coach and offensive coordinator - my point is that he's an idiot when it comes to GM duties and roster management, and he likely will remain an idiot in that regard just as Wade Phillips and Brad Childress remained bad coaches despite people saying "give them another chance - that was an anomaly" after some questionable games.
He's not an idiot and he's not a bad coach. He made a couple questionable decisions, and one ****-up (Smith trade(s)). Childress and Phillips were bad because they never had control of their teams. McDaniels has complete control of the Broncos and he's not "losing his players" like Phillips and Childress did. And he won't because of the way he's been building and coaching that team.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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McDaniels had a great second draft so yeah, he's not an idiot. Those coaches were just bad coaches, their teams won despite them because of their talent, no one in their right mind would suggest Denver has a wealth of talent. If you're really dumb enough to believe that a poorly prepared first time Head Coach can't learn from his mistakes is simply idiotic, especially when McDaniels showed obvious improvements with a great second draft. I mean I can take your flawed logic and assume that because McDaniels had a great draft his second year he'll only have great drafts from now on...would be just as dumb.
What has McDaniels done this past offseason to inspire any confidence in the fanbase?

- He traded away one of the top 5 running backs of the 2010 season (Peyton Hillis) for chump change (worse, for Brady Quinn) when a running game is exactly what is missing from this team this year. Even if you make the argument that "no one knew what Hillis would do this year", you STILL don't trade him away for nothing, or worse than nothing, which is what Brady Quinn is. Nowhere in any universe is it ever smart to trade ANYTHING for Brady Quinn, much less a running back who has shown flashes of potential in preseason and past seasons with the Broncos, and who obviously goes on to become a beast for Cleveland.

- He reached for a project quarterback in the draft (Tebow) in the FIRST round when he a.) probably could have had Tebow later just as Holmgren grabbed Colt McCoy in the third round and b.) a project quarterback was far down on the list of needs the team had going into the 2010 season, and obviously Kyle Orton has played well enough to win games this year, and probably will play well for years to come.

- He traded away his best offensive player (Brandon Marshall) for less than a first round pick, and then he goes ahead and spends a first round pick on a WR who was questionable as a first round talent (Demaryius Thomas) and currently can't stay healthy or make any kind of impact, and in the process, passes on Dez Bryant, who looks like the second coming of Andre Johnson so far. Not only could he have selected Dez Bryant with the pick he used on Thomas, but if he hadn't traded Brandon Marshall from the start, he wouldn't have had to blow a first round pick on a WR and instead could have selected a cornerback like Devin McCourty or Kyle Wilson.

- I don't know if you want to count Alphonso Smith as part of last year's draft, but obviously, I touched on this before, but he gave up the #14 pick in the 2010 draft to draft this guy in 2009, and in the 2010 draft he could have selected any one of a number of defensive playmakers to fortify his team.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:58 PM    (permalink
Timbathia
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My point is not that he is plagued by the exact same problems as Wade Phillips and Brad Childress - he actually is a solid coach and offensive coordinator - my point is that he's an idiot when it comes to GM duties and roster management, and he likely will remain an idiot in that regard just as Wade Phillips and Brad Childress remained bad coaches despite people saying "give them another chance - that was an anomaly" after some questionable games.

My point is that this attitude that people have that discounts terrible decisions such as the Alphonso Smith pick - this attitude of "well, it was his first draft, he'll get better" is the exact same attitude that keeps people employed in positions they are unqualified to be employed in for far too long.

Brad Childress and Wade Phillips are coordinators, and not head coaches. It was apparent to smart people long before they were fired that they were not fit for the jobs. It is apparent at this stage that Josh McDaniels is not fit for the GM's job and should be an offensive coordinator, or at best a head coach without personnel power.
McDaniels has made some high profile mistakes in evaluating players. If that makes someone an idiot that cant be a HC, then I think you need to look at a lot of other coaches around the league too. Why is that you keep repeating names like Alphonso Smith without once mentioning Brandon Lloyd? McDaniels has turned an absolute joke into a probowl receiver. How is that for evaluating talent? Ayers was panned as a bust of a pick last year by everyone in here, while now even NJX concedes he is turning into at the very least a very good LB. As many bad decisions you made I can name a good one.

The fact is McDaniels had no option but to take tired old vets and rookies for his defense as there were only Doom and Champ as worthwhile starters for a 3-4 defense, while DJ Williams was the only other talent and he is suited to 4-3.

The McDaniels is an idiot and has to be fired talk is an over reaction by Broncos fans that are not used to being a losing team and other teams fans that hated McDaniels the second the cutler trade happened (most now concede we lost nothing in getting rid of cutler).

While I am far from impressed with how we are going right now, and a lot of that is McDaniels fault, there is enough promise there to see this thing out.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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They need to put ten sticks of dynamite in the roster of the Vikings and blow that thing halfway to hell.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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They need to put ten sticks of dynamite in the roster of the Vikings and blow that thing halfway to hell.
Build a power run team around AP....

But I don't think they're blowing up anytime soon. Given their stadium situation, they'll be compelled to win now. They'll probably keep the team 90% in tact, bring in a new coach, and trade for or sign an old veteran QB (Palmer? McNabb? Hasselbeck? Kevin Kolb??) and try to at least eek out a playoff birth.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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What has McDaniels done this past offseason to inspire any confidence in the fanbase?

- He traded away one of the top 5 running backs of the 2010 season (Peyton Hillis) for chump change (worse, for Brady Quinn) when a running game is exactly what is missing from this team this year. Even if you make the argument that "no one knew what Hillis would do this year", you STILL don't trade him away for nothing, or worse than nothing, which is what Brady Quinn is. Nowhere in any universe is it ever smart to trade ANYTHING for Brady Quinn, much less a running back who has shown flashes of potential in preseason and past seasons with the Broncos, and who obviously goes on to become a beast for Cleveland.
RB is a pretty expendable position compared to QB. He brought in Brady Quinn to see if he could do anything with him. It'd be nice to have Hillis, but that was a decent gamble. Also, Hillis has turned out to be a fumbling machine. The number one mantra of McDaniels' offense is to take care of the ball.

- He reached for a project quarterback in the draft (Tebow) in the FIRST round when he a.) probably could have had Tebow later just as Holmgren grabbed Colt McCoy in the third round and b.) a project quarterback was far down on the list of needs the team had going into the 2010 season, and obviously Kyle Orton has played well enough to win games this year, and probably will play well for years to come.
He didn't "reach". He went and got the guy he wanted. It's amazing how people don't understand this concept. The Browns obviously weren't that high on McCoy and just took a flier on him later. They never targetted him because if they did, they would have drafted him MUCH earlier in the draft. Whether Tebow works out or not won't be answered for awhile - which is super smart.

- He traded away his best offensive player (Brandon Marshall) for less than a first round pick, and then he goes ahead and spends a first round pick on a WR who was questionable as a first round talent (Demaryius Thomas) and currently can't stay healthy or make any kind of impact, and in the process, passes on Dez Bryant, who looks like the second coming of Andre Johnson so far. Not only could he have selected Dez Bryant with the pick he used on Thomas, but if he hadn't traded Brandon Marshall from the start, he wouldn't have had to blow a first round pick on a WR and instead could have selected a cornerback like Devin McCourty or Kyle Wilson.
Really? There was no way he could have kept Marshall on that team. That trade is part of why McDaniels is not Wade Phillips or Brad Childress. He maintains control of his team. He passed on Bryant for Thomas for the same reason he traded Marshall. Also, Thomas has been pretty solid, and it's silly to say that one rookie WR is better than another when they've both showed signs. Do you know who Michael Clayton is?

- I don't know if you want to count Alphonso Smith as part of last year's draft, but obviously, I touched on this before, but he gave up the #14 pick in the 2010 draft to draft this guy in 2009, and in the 2010 draft he could have selected any one of a number of defensive playmakers to fortify his team.
A lot of people thought Smith was worth a Top 15 pick in that draft.
You're being silly.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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or could have settled on any number of decents backs in the draft that year like McCoy or Brown, or whatever.
Brown is terrible.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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Other teams that need a blowup: Jags
The Jaguars need good safeties, a good corner, a QB of the future, some O-line depth, LB depth and WR depth. I wouldn't call that blowing up. The team was blown up already, now it's being built.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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Build a power run team around AP....

But I don't think they're blowing up anytime soon. Given their stadium situation, they'll be compelled to win now. They'll probably keep the team 90% in tact, bring in a new coach, and trade for or sign an old veteran QB (Palmer? McNabb? Hasselbeck? Kevin Kolb??) and try to at least eek out a playoff birth.
What's funny is that the guys we have at offensive line are probably best suited for a power run scheme but Childress insisted on going with zone blocking. I wouldn't blow up the entire Vikings roster, just the secondary and quarterbacks.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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Robert Quinn?
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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blah blah blah
You still don't get it. Yes, the Broncos made a mistake by going with McDaniels over one of the defensive options. That's not on McDaniels, he didn't hire himself. If you thought that he was coming in to run Shanahan's offense, you have mental illnesses beyond healing. So yeah, he blew up a perfectly good offense because it wasn't going to work for him. Every coach does this.

You're overreacting, and acting as if they can just fire McDaniels and instantly be better. Which just isn't the case. They're not going to get someone better than McDaniels because he's really good. They need to fix up the defense now that the offense is mostly where Josh wants it, and they'll be on their way to contending again.

Bring in any coach now, and they'll blow it all up again because the roster is taylor-made for McDaniels' offense, which no one else can run.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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What's funny is that the guys we have at offensive line are probably best suited for a power run scheme but Childress insisted on going with zone blocking. I wouldn't blow up the entire Vikings roster, just the secondary and quarterbacks.
This. Apparently AP, Rice, Harvin, Allen, K-Williams, Greenway and a few others need to be pushes aside. Smart choices at the obvious problem areas will make this effort easier and quicker.
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