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Old 11-29-2010, 01:15 PM    (permalink
MaxV
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Colts need "Big Ugglies" on both sides of the ball. It's as simple as that.

It's very difficult to win consistently when you are getting dominated at the line of scrimmage.

In 2006, when Colts won the Super Bowl, I thought Booger McFarland played as well during that playoff run as I've ever seen a Colts' D-Lineman play. People often point to the play of Bob Sanders during that run as the difference, but I thought Booger contributed just as much, if not more. Even the plays that didn't show up on the stat sheet, like forcing the RBs to make extra cuts and spend more time in the backfield then they wanted to, he was just a BEAST throughout that run.

That's exactly what they need to make their defense successful. Unfortunately, Colts just haven't been able find a guy like that since.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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The argument that Tom Brady doesn't make his receivers better and he needs good receivers to succeed is absolutely hilarious.

Deion Branch was a great receiver for the Patriots. He went to Seattle and was terrible. Now that he's back with New England? He's on pace for his second highest yards per game and highest touchdown total of his career. Randy Moss looked like he was on a slight decline in his final season with Minnesota and was no more than average in Oakland. Then he comes to New England and he becomes the best receiver in the league again. He left the Patriots earlier this year and has been completely worthless since. Wes Welker had 96 receptions and 1 TD in THREE years prior to coming to New England. Since coming to the Pats? 115 receptions and 6 TD PER SEASON. David Patten put up more touchdowns in his final season with Tom Brady than he has in four seasons since. David Givens, who put respectable numbers with the Patriots, has only played in five NFL games since.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
Teams have adjusted to it, though. I think they need to bring in a sledgehammer of a FB. I know it doesn't suit their speed style, but at this point, why not give it a shot? Run more I-formation plays.
I said this in an earlier post this morning, the stretch play isnt getting it done anymore, as a matter of fact it sucks. But for some reason they keep coming back to it. So it used to be good back in the day...So what? Marrying your sister used to be cool too. Then again that took a couple hundred years to really stamp out, i hope this change comes around a little faster than that.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MaxV View Post
Colts need "Big Ugglies" on both sides of the ball. It's as simple as that.

It's very difficult to win consistently when you are getting dominated at the line of scrimmage.

In 2006, when Colts won the Super Bowl, I thought Booger McFarland played as well during that playoff run as I've ever seen a Colts' D-Lineman play. People often point to the play of Bob Sanders during that run as the difference, but I thought Booger contributed just as much, if not more. Even the plays that didn't show up on the stat sheet, like forcing the RBs to make extra cuts and spend more time in the backfield then they wanted to, he was just a BEAST throughout that run.

That's exactly what they need to make their defense successful. Unfortunately, Colts just haven't been able find a guy like that since.
It just basically comes down to what they value and Polian has shown that he prefers skill position players early in the draft. Jerry Hughes was the first lineman taken in the first round by the Colts since Dwight Freeney. They haven't drafted an OL in the first round since 1997. Since drafting Manning (and including that draft), the Colts have picked three offensive linemen in the top three rounds. That's three top-90 OL in 13 years.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Look, the Colts' offense relies heavily on timing and the opposition is doing a very good job of disrupting it right now.

When you stop the run and put pressure on the QB with the front 4, you can have success against even the most talented offenses.

Just win your battles at the line of scrimmage, jam the WRs at the line and have your back 7 cover all the zones.

If that formula is successful, then it doesn't matter how good of QB you're going up against.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to complete absolve Manning, he has been trying to force the issue.

But I think even the biggest Manning haters will agree that he's FAR from this team's biggest problem.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by P-L View Post
The argument that Tom Brady doesn't make his receivers better and he needs good receivers to succeed is absolutely hilarious.

Deion Branch was a great receiver for the Patriots. He went to Seattle and was terrible. Now that he's back with New England? He's on pace for his second highest yards per game and highest touchdown total of his career. Randy Moss looked like he was on a slight decline in his final season with Minnesota and was no more than average in Oakland. Then he comes to New England and he becomes the best receiver in the league again. He left the Patriots earlier this year and has been completely worthless since. Wes Welker had 96 receptions and 1 TD in THREE years prior to coming to New England. Since coming to the Pats? 115 receptions and 6 TD PER SEASON. David Patten put up more touchdowns in his final season with Tom Brady than he has in four seasons since. David Givens, who put respectable numbers with the Patriots, has only played in five NFL games since.
I think that Brady does make his receivers better but not to the extent that Manning does. Manning can take someone from average to Pro Bowl level and from Pro Bowl to near HoF caliber. Brady takes someone from average to pretty good and from Pro Bowl to All Pro.

Branch was not terrible for his first few of years in Seattle. He actually averaged 55 yards per game, higher than all but his two most recent years in New England, would have had a career high in touchdowns (>5) in all three years if he had played the whole year, and had a higher yards per catch then he did previously in New England. Then he started getting injured and by the time he was actually healthy, Hasselbeck was injured and had started to decline. Branch isn't great by any means but he is a meh #1 or good #2, imo.

Moss was an all time great without Brady, though with he was just unstoppable. But Moss had already led the league in touchdowns 3 times before he got the the Patriots and his numbers did not fall off much when Brady got injured. His yards per catch are actually better in Minnesota and Oakland than they were in New England as well.

Welker did nothing before he went to the Patriots mostly because he rarely played receiver. When he did, though, he was almost as good. When the Dolphins started using him in 2006 he ended up with 67 receptions even though he was only the starter for 2 games and had Joey Harrington and Daunte Culpepper throwing him the ball. With decent QB play and more playing time he probably would have broken 100 receptions.

Patten had his best years with Brady, true, but he was also pretty good for the Saints a couple of years ago and even had that one halfway decent year for the Browns with Tim Couch.

Givens is really not a good example, he tore his ACL like 8 games after he left the Patriots and never recovered.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Sorry Manning haters, but you can't just ignore the lack of talent on Manning's supporting cast right now. He's missing guys like Addai, Collie, Clark and Gonzalez, while guys named Charlie Johnson and Pierre Garcon are playing critical roles. Injuries and bad Draft picks have eroded the talent around him. If you want to believe that Manning suddenly went from guy who leads a team to a Super Bowl to a bad QB, fine, but you're believing what you want to believe.
Garcon played well last year(remember Peyton made him play well) and besides Phillip Rivers was misssing his #1,2,3,4 WR and # 1TE/RB and has played great.

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I'd add in the Dolphins too. Against the Colts he had 4 deep drops that weren't play action.

Another problem Manning has(including injuries and the fact he's having a down year) is the fact the play calling is verging on ********. If you have no offensive line and your receiving options are wafer thin, why continuously make your QB take 7 step drops???
Peyton call his own plays thats why he is so great remember, he is a offensive coordinator and a head coach too.

Oh the bears O-line is worst than the Colts O-line not even close
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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What can be done...well, probably stop playing the Chargers.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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What can be done...well, probably stop playing the Chargers.
Dont worry Polian will make sure thats not in the schedule next year so Manning can get his MVP numbers back. That and getting more picks in the draft, apparently now Manning can't do it with anyone you insert on O like everyone was saying three weeks ago. I wish I could keep up with the rules of Manning on this board.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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Dont worry Polian will make sure thats not in the schedule next year so Manning can get his MVP numbers back. That and getting more picks in the draft, apparently now Manning can't do it with anyone you insert on O like everyone was saying three weeks ago. I wish I could keep up with the rules of Manning on this board.
I know its crazy how the Polian rules only benefit one QB in the entire NFL.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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I think that Brady does make his receivers better but not to the extent that Manning does. Manning can take someone from average to Pro Bowl level and from Pro Bowl to near HoF caliber. Brady takes someone from average to pretty good and from Pro Bowl to All Pro.

Branch was not terrible for his first few of years in Seattle. He actually averaged 55 yards per game, higher than all but his two most recent years in New England, would have had a career high in touchdowns (>5) in all three years if he had played the whole year, and had a higher yards per catch then he did previously in New England. Then he started getting injured and by the time he was actually healthy, Hasselbeck was injured and had started to decline. Branch isn't great by any means but he is a meh #1 or good #2, imo.

Moss was an all time great without Brady, though with he was just unstoppable. But Moss had already led the league in touchdowns 3 times before he got the the Patriots and his numbers did not fall off much when Brady got injured. His yards per catch are actually better in Minnesota and Oakland than they were in New England as well.

Welker did nothing before he went to the Patriots mostly because he rarely played receiver. When he did, though, he was almost as good. When the Dolphins started using him in 2006 he ended up with 67 receptions even though he was only the starter for 2 games and had Joey Harrington and Daunte Culpepper throwing him the ball. With decent QB play and more playing time he probably would have broken 100 receptions.

Patten had his best years with Brady, true, but he was also pretty good for the Saints a couple of years ago and even had that one halfway decent year for the Browns with Tim Couch.

Givens is really not a good example, he tore his ACL like 8 games after he left the Patriots and never recovered.
When 2008 when Brady got hurt Moss's numbers were not as good as the other years he had in New England.
2008 1008 yards 11 tds
Compared to
2007 1493 yards 23 tds
2009 1264 yards 13 tds


So the fact that Wes Welker had 1 touchdown in his career before coming to NE and now he has 22 has nothing to do with Brady? Your Brady hate and how it blinds you of any objectivity or truth is funny.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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I know its crazy how the Polian rules only benefit one QB in the entire NFL.

If he were the GM of a team with a power run game and dominating defense...do you think he would have pushed for them so hard?

If you look at some of the offensive rule changes, while they affected more teams than just his own, they've all been in direct benefit of the Colts.

Emphasis on the 5-yard illegal contact rule - Response to getting Ty Law'd every playoffs

No touchie of the QBie - Can't have his franchise guy getting Brady'd

Even the rule that changed the draft order for the playoffs to go by when you were eliminated, not by record...he got sick of picking 30th after getting knocked out by teams with worse records than he yet still had to pick behind them.

Polian has a LOT of say with what gets done by the competition committee.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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I am not big on the Polian hate. However, it is tough to deny that the guy who has some of the most influence in new rules continually shapes them with the benefit of his own team in mind. I would too, in his position.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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If that were the case, he needs to make a new rule where no player on the front 4 can weigh more than 270lbs. That rule would benefit the colts more than any team.
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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When 2008 when Brady got hurt Moss's numbers were not as good as the other years he had in New England.
2008 1008 yards 11 tds
Compared to
2007 1493 yards 23 tds
2009 1264 yards 13 tds


So the fact that Wes Welker had 1 touchdown in his career before coming to NE and now he has 22 has nothing to do with Brady? Your Brady hate and how it blinds you of any objectivity or truth is funny.
I am fairly certain that Brady was the QB in 2009 as well, though I could be mistaken. I also said that Brady did make Welker better, in case you didn't read. He definitely upped his game when he had Brady throwing to him but it is not like he sucked on the Dolphins
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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impressive how Mannings drop in play has not only resulted in the colts playing worse but the entire AFC South becoming worse. Manning is really the guy where the division is all about
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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impressive how Mannings drop in play has not only resulted in the colts playing worse but the entire AFC South becoming worse. Manning is really the guy where the division is all about
Well Vince Young, the Texans defense and the Jaguars........the Jaguars all contributed their fair shares as well.
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:56 PM    (permalink
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impressive how Mannings drop in play has not only resulted in the colts playing worse but the entire AFC South becoming worse. Manning is really the guy where the division is all about
The AFC south is worse because:

The Texans dogshit defense
Vince Young being injured/terrible
Jacksonville having an inconsistent, and sometimes inept QB(plus a terrible secondary)

Yeah, the three other teams in the division are worse off because Manning has been horrible the last two weeks.
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Old 11-29-2010, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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it was just a joke. Was just curious that since Peyton start playing bad (ie last 4 weeks) the division as a whole has gone 4-10 whilst they were looking pretty good early on in the season
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Old 11-29-2010, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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Im not even going to read through this thread. So many haters here. lol
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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Expect the Colts to draft Mark Ingram in the 1st round and Leonard Hankerson in the 2nd round. They don't need offensive linemen or defensive players. Bill Polian thinks they need more skill position players.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
If he were the GM of a team with a power run game and dominating defense...do you think he would have pushed for them so hard?

If you look at some of the offensive rule changes, while they affected more teams than just his own, they've all been in direct benefit of the Colts.

Emphasis on the 5-yard illegal contact rule - Response to getting Ty Law'd every playoffs

No touchie of the QBie - Can't have his franchise guy getting Brady'd

Even the rule that changed the draft order for the playoffs to go by when you were eliminated, not by record...he got sick of picking 30th after getting knocked out by teams with worse records than he yet still had to pick behind them.

Polian has a LOT of say with what gets done by the competition committee.
-To insinuate that the new found emphasis on roughing the passer is somehow largely because of Peyton Manning/Polian is ridiculous. He is one of the most durable players in the history of the sport lolllllllllllllllll.

-Same with the Ty Law rule. People were chirping about that since the Super Bowl when Faulk/Bruce/Holt couldn't run a full route without getting destroyed.

I guarantee it is common interest of EVERY owner to protect their QBs... I also think MOST OF THE LEAGUE (especially considering that there are almost no run-dominated offenses anymore) was absolutely fine with emphasizing the DB stuff - fans don't want to watch 16-13 games and everyone knows that. It wasn't like Polian was the mastermind behind it...

-I highly, highly, highly doubt that Polian thought to himself "we always lose early in the playoffs after dominating in the regular season, and since I plan on losing early in playoffs every year, I must push a rule change that would allow us to pick a couple of spots higher at the end of the first, even though teams down there are usually targeting specific positions anyway" and then consequently he sneakily gets the NFL to change it. When in reality, I don't think anyone would disagree with the fact that the new system (picking based on when you lose in the playoffs rather than reg. season record) is actually the better system.

I don't get how people come up with these crazy conspiracy theories.

As for the real topic, I'm not worried about the Colts. THEY JUST LOST TO TWO OF THE BEST TEAMS IN THE NFL. ARGUABLY THE TWO BEST! And they lost in the waning seconds in NE. Take a deep breath. It's not time to start panicking until they lose to like Tennessee or something. Losing a tight one to the Pats and then coming back with your toughest matchup who just happens to also be the hottest team in the league (not to mention #1 on both sides of the ball) and getting beat with half of your team injured IS NOT the end of the world.

They'll get in and ultimately judgment will be based on what he does in the playoffs. Unfortunately for him, it will be without Clark, and probably with multiple road games.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:12 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
-To insinuate that the new found emphasis on roughing the passer is somehow largely because of Peyton Manning/Polian is ridiculous. He is one of the most durable players in the history of the sport lolllllllllllllllll.
Durability has nothing to do with it. Brady was one of the most durable players in the NFL before the freak injury. I don't think Manning has ever taken a helmet to the knee and if does in the future, I don't think he'll just shake it off. He's done a tremendous job of avoiding hits throughout his career, but it only takes one hit that's "too rough."
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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I don't think people realize how susceptible QBs are to injuries.

It's a lot harder to hurt a moving target. It's tons easier to dive at someone's legs or take a cheap shot to the head if they are not running around.

I'm not saying the vast majority of the NFL is dirty, but it would only take 2-3 people to completely **** a team for a season.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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I just don't understand why people are so against siding with the offense with the penalties.

I hate terrible calls as much as anyone, but if the officials call it correctly (obviously they won't always) the rules are fine. It's their interpretations that we hate.

Just think of the alternative though... human error leading to a few ***** calls that everyone can be mad at...

OR

Brunell vs. Hoyer this Monday...
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