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Old 12-08-2010, 08:22 PM    (permalink
Sportsfan486
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Yep, let the QBs stay healthy and do their jobs without going down.
Put flags on them.

Nobody likes to see 3rd string QBs out there (except Bears fans).
New rule in 2 years:

QBs are no longer allowed to run the football. Conversely, no player is allowed to touch the QB while he's inside the pocket; doing so results in a 15-yard penalty and ejection.
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:48 PM    (permalink
Rabscuttle
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I'm going to have to take away my kids' allowance whenever I catch them playing tag.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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I'm going to have to take away my kids' allowance whenever I catch them playing tag.
I'd say you should just beat them instead, but I put a cartoon as my profile pic, so...
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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also please show me a video of a tackle like this. not just shoving but hitting your elbow to the back and then extending your arm.
You are making that up. It is clearly just a shove to the ground, check back a couple of pages, I posted a gif that has been used as an avatar on here for a while now of the same thing happening to McFadden, only it is a DB on a RB who reasonably expected contact as opposed to a 300lb monster on a QB who seemed entirely oblivious to the idea he might get hit running the football.

Quote:
Did you see a fine for Suh? No?
Wrong again, he was fined 15k for the push.

The team/players involved here is a complete non-issue for me. I couldn't care less who was involved.

I also have no problem in a ref missing a call. I ref in the amateur league I play in, it's a tough job. I have a problem with a ref making up a rule and then being too stubborn to admit he is wrong and calling something that didn't happen because of his made up rule.

My problem is with Hochuli saying that a QB essentially can't be tackled, and bad form or not, a two hand push is a perfectly legitimate form of tackle and there is absolutely nothing "unnecessary" about pushing him as hard as you can, that is just ensuring that he goes down, a) for sure and b) as little gain as possible. It was a two hand shove on a QB, which apparently is not allowed even if the QB legitimately gives up his protection by becoming a runner, that IS a rule.

Again... just a horrible blown call, that more than being a bad call is an indictment on what the league is doing to the game. This call is entirely about the refs not even understanding the rule changes that the league is implementing on a weekly basis.

On a side note, it makes the punishment that Andre Johnson got even more farcical. Apparently ripping a guys helmet off and throwing multiple punches after the play is over is now not even twice as bad as pushing a QB to the ground completely legitimately during the play.

I just wish the league would wait until the end of the season before trying to make all these ridiculous changes and actually review things, they are just making themselves look stupid, clearly confusing the fans, who based on our small sample(a sample more educated than the general football fan) are completely wrong on this. Apparently this play is not only unnecessary roughness but also a flagrant action worthy of a fine. Given that we as fans felt definitively that it was not even flag worthy should say a lot.

The game is becoming a joke right now with the rule changes and inconsistency in applying them that seems entirely arbitrary and completely based on what Goodell feels rather than what has happened.

I stand by this being the single worst call of the season and then to make it worse the worst fine I've ever seen. Refs make mistakes, guys with multiple angle slow motion replays do not get the same pass.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:50 PM    (permalink
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i thought it was completly necessary and badass if i might add
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:06 AM    (permalink
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Again, before saying "this is a blown call", please watch the video at game speed! It is on youtube, I posted the links a few pages back... Obviously when it is reviewed we can see that it was a 2 handed shove, but at game speed it looked like Suh went to destroy Cutlers head. No matter who that is, you can't punch/forearm someone in the head and it happened so fast that it appeared to be just that.

The fine was rediculous. The call was a mistake (after review), but the call is understandable when you watch the video at game speed. So please watch the video because I think everyone will gain some understanding on the issue.
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Old 12-09-2010, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wogitalia View Post
You are making that up. It is clearly just a shove to the ground, check back a couple of pages, I posted a gif that has been used as an avatar on here for a while now of the same thing happening to McFadden, only it is a DB on a RB who reasonably expected contact as opposed to a 300lb monster on a QB who seemed entirely oblivious to the idea he might get hit running the football.
That play was nothing like this one. not one bit. seriously how hard is it to understand that they called because they saw a hit to the helmet?


Quote:
Wrong again, he was fined 15k for the push.
Good job saying that since i posted that before the fine

Quote:
The team/players involved here is a complete non-issue for me. I couldn't care less who was involved.

I also have no problem in a ref missing a call. I ref in the amateur league I play in, it's a tough job. I have a problem with a ref making up a rule and then being too stubborn to admit he is wrong and calling something that didn't happen because of his made up rule.
It is not a made up rule. If they think u hit the helmet, they gonna call it if they see it.

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My problem is with Hochuli saying that a QB essentially can't be tackled,
nope you said that

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and bad form or not, a two hand push is a perfectly legitimate form of tackle and there is absolutely nothing "unnecessary" about pushing him as hard as you can, that is just ensuring that he goes down, a) for sure and b) as little gain as possible. It was a two hand shove on a QB, which apparently is not allowed even if the QB legitimately gives up his protection by becoming a runner, that IS a rule.

Again... just a horrible blown call, that more than being a bad call is an indictment on what the league is doing to the game. This call is entirely about the refs not even understanding the rule changes that the league is implementing on a weekly basis.
yes, but a helmet hit is still unnecessary roughness every time.

Quote:
On a side note, it makes the punishment that Andre Johnson got even more farcical. Apparently ripping a guys helmet off and throwing multiple punches after the play is over is now not even twice as bad as pushing a QB to the ground completely legitimately during the play.
the league is trying to protect injuries. Andre got ejected from a game and got a rather big fine for a first time thing.
it is clearly worse to have a helmet to helmet it that can cause severe concussions.

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I just wish the league would wait until the end of the season before trying to make all these ridiculous changes and actually review things,
Again, helmet to helmet things is not a new change. nothing is new. they just started to fine this stuff.

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they are just making themselves look stupid, clearly confusing the fans, who based on our small sample(a sample more educated than the general football fan) are completely wrong on this. Apparently this play is not only unnecessary roughness but also a flagrant action worthy of a fine. Given that we as fans felt definitively that it was not even flag worthy should say a lot.
idk what the fine was for, but everyone is agreeing that there shouldnt have been a fine.

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The game is becoming a joke right now with the rule changes and inconsistency in applying them that seems entirely arbitrary and completely based on what Goodell feels rather than what has happened.

I stand by this being the single worst call of the season and then to make it worse the worst fine I've ever seen. Refs make mistakes, guys with multiple angle slow motion replays do not get the same pass.
This is not close to the worst call this season. You guys need to stop watching this slow mo tackle and watch the real time stuff. i mean hell, halsey thought he mightve hit the helmet in the slow mo pic

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Old 12-09-2010, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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So let's get a running tally. So far it is illegal and finable to:

Hit a QB high
hit a QB low
Land on a QB with your full body weight
Put you're helmet in the chest of a QB
And finally push a QB with two hands while he is running with the ball.

Honestly, Suh is a huge, powerful man. He refrained from tackling a QB when he legally could have. What more do you want out of players?

We can't even make fun of the league and say they're turning it into two hand touch anymore because even that is banned apparently.
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:15 AM    (permalink
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I think this should have been treated similarly to the Austin Collie situation. Given the NFL's decisions to try and remove dirty hits from the game the Refs should air on the side of caution and if they think it might be a dirty hit then throw the flag. That is what happened in the situation with Collie. It is what happened in the situation with Suh on Cutler. What makes this a joke is that the league then fined Suh over it, despite on further review it showing that it was a clean hit. For those harping on about not being able to hit QBs if that had been a WR, RB or TE and Suh had appeared to drive his elbow into the back of their helmet then the Ref would have thrown the flag as well.
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:56 AM    (permalink
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Watching it in full speed I can perfectly understand the penalty, it looks like his strikes for the back of Cutler's head.
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Old 12-09-2010, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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NFL rule 12, Article 3, Section 1(a) defines unsportsmanlike conduct, among other things, as: "Throwing a punch, or a forearm, or kicking at an opponent even though no contact is made."

So if you can be penalized for throwing a forearm shiver that doesn't make contact with a player, why even start the process? Sunday, Suh threw his forearm at Cutler. It just didn't make first contact. Who knows what Suh's mindset at the time was. But based on NFL rules, nothing good can ever come by approaching a player the way Suh did. That's why I think the NFL fined Suh -- even a forearm whiff is considered unsportsmanlike conduct under its rules. And as we know, Suh is a multiple offender on unnecessary roughness/unsportsmanlike conduct penalties this season. He's been called for four penalties that carry 15-yard markoffs this season.
This makes the fine a lot more understandable. hochuli therefore explained it wrong but he was fined for unsportsmanlike conduct
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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I don't think he threw the forearm. He hand extended forwards. If your going with your forearm you have to turn your arm, he didn't do that before or after contact was made.

It was just a whack in the back of his head.
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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If there was contact it looks light and incidental to me. It just looks like he's shoving Cutler down. I bet now he wishes he's just tackled him like normal now.

Well with his contract he probably doesn't care that much.
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Old 12-09-2010, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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I don't think he threw the forearm. He hand extended forwards. If your going with your forearm you have to turn your arm, he didn't do that before or after contact was made.

It was just a whack in the back of his head.
well he had his forearm up first, which isnt a normal motion when you want to shove someone, at least when i do i dont pull the ellbow as high as he did. I mean no one knows what his intention was, i highly doubt that he wanted to throw a forearm but that looks at least like a better explanation for the fine than the unnecessary roughness
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Old 12-09-2010, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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I love how the announcers parallel the more moronic posters here. When they saw it in real-time, it was all "Whoa, Suh forearmed him to the back of the head! Unnecessary roughness!" Then they saw it in slo-mo and sounded offended that Suh was flagged for exactly what they thought they saw, too. Damn those refs and their weak, non-slo-mo, non-zooming eyesight!
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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Serious question Monomach. Should refs be held to the standard of what viewers see at home in real-time from one camera angle? Should the announcers or home viewer's initial reaction be criteria on which to judge an on-field NFL referee?
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Serious question Monomach. Should refs be held to the standard of what viewers see at home in real-time from one camera angle? Should the announcers or home viewer's initial reaction be criteria on which to judge an on-field NFL referee?
Yes, refs should be held to the standard of what everyone else sees in real time at one angle.

...because their eyes and brains are human. They see in real-time and at one angle, the same as us.

To suggest that they be held to a superhuman standard is pretty much the pinnacle of dumbassery.
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
Serious question Monomach. Should refs be held to the standard of what viewers see at home in real-time from one camera angle? Should the announcers or home viewer's initial reaction be criteria on which to judge an on-field NFL referee?
noted, ill quickly learn how to look at something with 2 angles at the same time and ill become the best ref ever.
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:54 PM    (permalink
iowatreat54
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Well, to be fair, the refs shouldn't be held to the standard of what everyone sees in real time on TV. It's a completely different view than what they see on the field.

That said, it should be expected that on every single play, refs are going to see some things we don't see and not see some things we do see. No one has any idea what the refs on this particular play saw, I don't care what angles they show replayed and in slow motion. Unless there is a camera angle showing the view from every single ref's shoulder/hat/eyes, no one can honestly say they would know what the refs saw.

Back to the point, refs should be held to the standard that what they see in real time on the field is what should be called. More often then not, they make the right calls (or non calls) and should be given the benefit of the doubt. Now, you can argue whether or not the rule is bad and certainly when a bad call or non call is made it will demand more attention, but you can't look at all these replays and say the ref should have made the correct calls right away on every play. It doesn't work like that.
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Is it still okay to push quarterbacks out of bounds or do defensive players have to politely ask them to leave the field of play?

BTW, when are running backs going to get called for inititating contact with their helmets? Time after time you see running backs drop the head to make contact with the defender and are never called for it. Are defensive players not susceptible to injuries from helmets? (No, I am not advocating for this, just wonder why only offensive skill position guys are being protected by these fines and penalties)
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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They see in real-time and at one angle, the same as us.
Only if they are doing a god horrible job. If they are seeing 1 angle it means the other 6 refs are doing nothing. Hochuli was blatantly wrong here, one of his crew should have seen that was a push, I still don't see how anyone saw anything else, that was a shove in real time, a shove in slow mo and a shove in fast forward.

Not sure if the NFL has a rule similar to this but NCAA rule has specific rules whereby contact to helmet by arm or hand is perfectly fine. It would seem logical that there is such a rule, otherwise any contact above the head on a RB would be illegal.

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No player shall continuously contact an opponent’s helmet (including
the face mask) with hand(s) or arm(s) (Exception: By or against the ball
carrier).
This play was an an aggressive shove by a player who is considerably bigger and stronger and had momentum assist him further. The play is the same sort of thing as you will see numerous times on a weekend. Hell Josh Freeman did the exact same thing, note that his was a personal foul becasue it was out of bounds, not for shoving him.

I stand by that shoving a guy is perfectly legal, shoving a guy aggressively is also perfectly illegal. Hochuli has completely whiffed on this call and by the looks of it he then told his crew to piss off I threw a flag and I won't pick it up even though they are telling me I'm wrong.

Worst call I've seen this year because it just goes completely against the rules and character of the sport.
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Old 12-09-2010, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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I still don't see how anyone saw anything else, that was a shove in real time, a shove in slow mo and a shove in fast forward.
Either you haven't even bothered to watch it before commenting, or you're lying just to stir up ****. EVERYONE, even the announcing crew didn't see it as a shove until the slo-mo replay.

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