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Old 12-08-2010, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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Coughlin is a great team manager. The problem I have with him is he needs good coordinators to be successful. He's too loyal to his coordinators, and he doesn't have a clue about defense.

As long as you give him a good DC, he'll put together a great team. If he doesn't have a good DC, you see mediocrity from our teams.

I like Coughlin overall, but being a defensive guy, I'm not as big on him as other people are.

Yeah his loyalty to his coaches is an issue, but I can understand his point of view. After all he is the oldest HC in the NFL, and he is doing things old school way. And that's being loyal to those around you. Now, i think during his tenure that has hurt him..

Hufangel
Lewis
Sheridan

3 coordinators gone..
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Old 12-08-2010, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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I can see the arguments for letting McD sleep in the bed he's made, but really, it's Denver. And when the coach you're replacing went 8-8 his last year and was 3 years removed from hosting the AFCCG, there are some expectations that come along with that. When you combine those expectations with the tradition of winning in Denver, it's no surprise McD was fired after destroying the team. If he was the coach of Cleveland or St. Louis, teams that don't have that tradition of winning, teams that have the patience to let his vision come through, then he'd still have a job today maybe. But he took a team that was one step away from the playoffs, blew up the pro bowl core, replaced it with journeymen, and went 3-9. That's not good enough for Denver.
Yeah but he had a vision. Can you imagine if every coach had to worry about an owner not allowing the coach to fulfill his vision?


People don't realize that some of the upper level management wanted Parcells fired for us after his first year. They thought he was in way over his head. But patience was the key, and we let him be, and good things happened.

Same with Coughlin. He had to get rid of ppl who didn't want to buy in, and he had to have a chance to establish his stamp on the team.

Chilly and Josh M. had their issues, but the Vikings owner extended Chilly. And to fire him the following year was a bush move. That's low class ownership right there. Granted, Chill is not well liked, and he had issues, but give him a chance to right the ship, and fix the problem. This was Josh's second year and ownership never gave him a chance to fix it, and get more players. How are you supposed to build a team in two years? They wanted more of a Pats style of franchise building, and hired a former Pats guy, and then fire him in 2 years. That's not how you do things.

If that's the case Coughlin would have been fired..

2 bad coordinators
A diva RB who throws his coach under the bus
Burress shots himself in the leg
Shockey who ripped Coughlin and then fights with the GM
Coughlin and his late policy


Majority of the fan base hated the guy in the biggest media market in the league. Not only that, the media hated him too! lol. Yet, somehow the owners held their course and have been more than fair with him. That's how you run a team. Patience! You can't have knee jerk reactions to fan sentiment or media pressure.

These two owners are examples of making a change without letting the HC follow through with their vision. If after a few more seasons things have still not changed for the better, than by all means fire them.
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Old 12-08-2010, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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further, this is denver, not new york. this isn't a city of 9 million people screaming because mark sanchez got out of bed on the left and only brushed his hair twice this morning. it's not a city, typically, of knee jerk reactions and impatient fans. we're a fan base who put up with dan reeves' ineptitude for years. with shanahan running the team into the ground for years. we've had 4 coaches in the last 3 decades. let's stop pretending that this is anything like new york or a new york fan base.

but let's compare again, shall we? matt millen had a vision. he was allowed to fulfill it. look how well off the lions are these days as a result.

sometimes a guy is terrible. what's funny is that no one's even arguing that he wasn't incompetent. y'all just think he should've had two more years to try to whittle the talent on the team down until denver *is* detroit-west.
This is all true.

So in conclusion, Josh McDaniels traded away a franchise qb and franchise WR and after inheriting a team that was a good defense away from being SB contenders, he's left them looking worse in the near future than the Detroit Lions, St. Louis Rams, hell...maybe every team outside of Buffalo.

All within 2 years.


I guess I stand corrected.
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Old 12-08-2010, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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why give him two more years when none of the players he's already gotten want anything to do with him? i mean, this is a guy who basically blew up a fringe playoff team to get 'his guys'. now, apparently, his guys aren't the right guys either. why give him two more years to try to sort out what he really needs? especially when he's pushed out every single 'veteran' guy in the front office and on his coaching staff? prior to this season, he made sure that everything was 'his'. now that we're having the worst season we've had in nearly 30 years, he suddenly is 'owed' more time to sink a ship that's already at the bottom of the ocean? why?

i hate to keep harping on it, but you *must* have seen something you thought he was doing well to think he deserves more time.



again, there's a vast difference between telling fans to piss off when your coach goes 8-8, then 11-5, and is making moves that are helping the team, compared to a coach who blows up an entire team, then gets substantially worse. it's not like players were quitting because they didn't want to work hard. they were quitting because mcdaniels was incompetent.



To give him a chance to weed out the players that won't buy in. When you coach a team you have players that buy in right away, or you may need to weed out the ones that don't buy in.

Either way, this process takes time. I don't know what the Denver owner expected in 2 years? A superbowl? Yeah, things weren't going well, but let him have another draft and free agency run. To show him the door at year # 2 is more of a knee jerk reaction. 2 years? What could any coach do in two years, especially since they wanted the Pats system of running things. Well they got the coach, and now it takes time for it to work and get implemented.

If your owner wanted that system then that's what it takes. Did he expect there to be no bad years? Right or wrong, Josh is trying to implement what he probably talked about with the owner during his interviews. Same with Childress. Extend him for more years, and then fire him. Just flat out bad ownership. If that's the case then why give him an extension? Based on that playoff run? And then things go bad so then you fire him? I don't agree with that and I think for good or bad you let the guy have enough rope to either hang himself or turn things around. Firing a coach year 2 is just bad ownership.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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I mean I understand your point of view. Why stick with a coach if things aren't going well and when people are already alientated and are not buying in. That's a very fair view.

I just feel in order for a coach and this goes with a player or GM too to be success, you have to be patient and see how things unfold. Things may not be good right away that doesn't mean you cut bait. Give the guy a chance to turn it around and bring his guys and coaches into the mix.

It's all ownership in my opinion. If we had ownership like that Parcells would have been out the door as a 1 year coach. If we did that Coughlin would have been shipped out too.

I tell BBD this all the time when it comes to players, and that's be patient. Same with coaching as well. Let them have a chance to weed out players and sign and draft their guys. I am not a fan of ownership that does stuff like that. And that's not just the Denver owner. I didn't like what they did to Childress too. And I am saying this as a guy who is not a fan of him. But still, they extended him, so now after a bad year, give him a chance to turn it around. Let him continue to salvage things and then try to build it up again. If he fails, then fire him.

I think just like fans, owners need to be patient too. It's times like this I am glad the Maras are our owners and not some of these other owners.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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If things weren't going well, that's one thing. But things went from going pretty well to going to ****, and it's because of McD. He got rid of almost everything that went well for the Broncos before he got here. He put all of his eggs in the basket of that going well, and there were zero indicators of it going well. 3-9 is not good enough. Period. Sure, maybe the firing was a bit of a hairline trigger move, but 10 times out of 10 I'd rather be getting rid of a guy a little early than give him time to turn us into the Lions. Every once in a while you have a guy, like Parcells or Coughlin, who some said should be fired early and it turned out keeping him was the right move. But more often than that it becomes really apparent that those guys are just bad coaches that shouldn't have been hired in the first place.
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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I can see both sides of this argument. I just feel as a whole, we pull the plug on coaches too quickly nowadays. Look at the Steelers, that organization sticks with its coaches through thick and thin, and the results speak for themselves.

I also feel that building that kind of environment, where players know that the coach is there to stay for awhile, reduces the whining and diva attitudes of today's player bc they either have to put up or get out. It takes away a lot of power from the players to just slack off and do what they want.

If ownership came out and said that Josh McDaniels is their guy and his program is here to stay, and supported him throughout the process, I feel that would clean up a lot of the quit in the players, and with enough time, who knows, maybe he would have moved in the right direction.

I just feel that the past 2 years, so many changes have been made to this organization, and those changes were all heavily influenced by McDaniels, and he took an unorthodox approach of getting guys that fit his style almost exclusively. So when you factor that in, it would be wise to let him develop "his" guys for a couple of years before giving up on him.

I'd be more open to firing him after next year if things looked awful. He was just starting to develop his talent this year. Injuries didn't help either.

But at the same time, I can see the other side of the argument as well.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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I readily admit I could wind up being wrong on this. I just don't see what's so scary about them. The oline is solid, but nothing to be scared about. Turner is a great RB and White is a great WR, but you can still stack the box and double White if you have a shutdown CB.

And that defense can be had. Like I said, I know they've beaten a ton of quality opponents and deserve respect, it's just that when I watch them play, I don't see what's so scary about them. They're one of those blue collar teams that's good in a lot of things, but not great in any.
And let Tony Gonzalez roam the middle of the field? Gonzalez is not at all what he used to be athletically (in fact, he has lost some of the glue on his hands too), but he sure as hell knows where to find the hole in the zone.

The Falcons' aren't set up to dominate teams right now. The offense is set up to hide the shortcomings of the defense by keeping the ball and moving it methodically. They rank 1st in TOP and, 2nd in TO differential, and 2nd in 3rd down conversions so the defense that gives up 5.8 yards per play (5th worst in the league) can play for as little as possible.

I think it is a good recipe for success against teams with high powered offenses that the Falcons would have no shot against if they tried to make huge plays. How this team responds to a large deficit has yet to be seen (the TB game would have been a good measuring stick if it weren't for the KO returned for a TD), but Matt Ryan has been terrific with the decisions he has been making and come 4th quarter, I am sure he can muster up a drive or two.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:03 AM    (permalink
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And let Tony Gonzalez roam the middle of the field? Gonzalez is not at all what he used to be athletically (in fact, he has lost some of the glue on his hands too), but he sure as hell knows where to find the hole in the zone.

The Falcons' aren't set up to dominate teams right now. The offense is set up to hide the shortcomings of the defense by keeping the ball and moving it methodically. They rank 1st in TOP and, 2nd in TO differential, and 2nd in 3rd down conversions so the defense that gives up 5.8 yards per play (5th worst in the league) can play for as little as possible.

I think it is a good recipe for success against teams with high powered offenses that the Falcons would have no shot against if they tried to make huge plays. How this team responds to a large deficit has yet to be seen (the TB game would have been a good measuring stick if it weren't for the KO returned for a TD), but Matt Ryan has been terrific with the decisions he has been making and come 4th quarter, I am sure he can muster up a drive or two.
And that's why I have absolutely no problem with anyone who tells me I'm wrong about this. It's just more of a hunch thing. I think once we get into the playoffs, matchups becomes more of a focal point, and I just think they can be had.

But it would not shock me at all if they proved me wrong.
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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And that's why I have absolutely no problem with anyone who tells me I'm wrong about this. It's just more of a hunch thing. I think once we get into the playoffs, matchups becomes more of a focal point, and I just think they can be had.

But it would not shock me at all if they proved me wrong.
If anything, I think Atlanta may have the favor of the Football Gods this year. A team winning in a traditional, balanced style....no flashy players but just lots and lots of guys who just get it done.

Being able to win close games is a signature of great teams, and they've done it plenty of times so far.

So long as they stay the hell out of Pennsylvania....
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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If anything, I think Atlanta may have the favor of the Football Gods this year. A team winning in a traditional, balanced style....no flashy players but just lots and lots of guys who just get it done.

Being able to win close games is a signature of great teams, and they've done it plenty of times so far.

So long as they stay the hell out of Pennsylvania....
The mark of a great team is *not* the ability to win "close games" but rather the ability to blow bad teams out of the water.

The Falcons are a mediocre team with a good record - nothing more than that. I'd be shocked if they don't go one-and-done in the playoffs or lose in the NFC championship game, at the very least.

Here's a good article that illustrates why great teams blow bad teams out, and winning close games does not signify a championship-caliber team:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/sta...uts-and-stomps
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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The Falcons beat the Saints because the Saints missed a field goal at the end. That has nothing to do with the Falcons being great. They were better then the Saints because the kicker is part of the team. It wasn't great play late on their part.
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