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Old 12-27-2010, 07:49 PM    (permalink
bored of education
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Originally Posted by Morton View Post
Question: why is nobody talking about Tommie Harris in this thread?

Harris and Julius Peppers are what makes maybe the best 4-3 defensive front in football work.
You might be the biggest ******* moron in the history of NFLDC. I really think you should reconsider waking up tomorrow morning. I really don't know where someone, who pretends to watch so much film on every player and thinks he is the end all be all of judging talent, types such moronic words. One you think Tommie Harris is one of the best DT's in the game. He is ******* awful. He is almost as bad as DT as you are at responding to threads. At least promise yourself that you will read what you type before submitting a reply. I have never seen such atrocious posting from one person over the course of one month than you. Do you watch football?
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 12-27-2010, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Damn, BOE. You scary.
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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Hey uh..Jay Ratliff isn't bad.
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Old 12-28-2010, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Remember when Marcus Stroud and John Henderson were good? Random thought of the day.
You have Alualu and Pot Roast now which I think will eventually be better.
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Old 12-28-2010, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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It's funny when people go off reputation from past seasons and BSPN pundit talk as basis for their evaluation of players rather than actual 2010 play.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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Remember when Marcus Stroud and John Henderson were good? Random thought of the day.
Quote:
Hey uh..Jay Ratliff isn't bad.
Remember when jay Ratliff was good? Oh wait, he still is.....

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In my head, I've somehow convinced myself the Bears would have won the Superbowl if he had played in it. Interior pressure was the only thing missing defensively. They got dinked and dunked to death.
Agree 100%. Tommie Harris was a dominant DT for awhile in what is the most physically demanding position in fb. Hasn't been the same since that injury that kept him out of the Bears SB loss.
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Old 12-30-2010, 08:44 AM    (permalink
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Granted I haven't watched Green Bay but a couple times this year, but don't opposing runners avg 4.6/rush or something like it? Doesn't speak too well for Raji

1)Ngata
2)Suh
3)Hampton
4)Rubin (maybe the most underrated guy in the league)

GO BROWNS!
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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Question: why is nobody talking about Tommie Harris in this thread?

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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Here's my understanding of the tackle debate as it relates to the 3-4. Please correct me where I'm wrong. This is my third post, so please forgive me... I tend to ramble. This is a long post.

When talking about linemen in a 3-4 you have to remember that scheme is more important than alignment.

In a two gap 3-4, like the Patriots run... I believe (It's so hard to keep up with the changes year to year.) the nose tackle and defensive ends are generally asked to read and react, with their main responsibility being gap control depending on the read they have after the snap. This is a more passive style of play. They tend to line up the end in the 5 technique and the nose tackle in zero, right over the center.

In a one gap 3-4, like the 49ers and Chargers... (I believe the Chargers still one gap... they seemed like it when they played the 49ers.) The linemen are asked to penetrate and eliminate one gap, while trying to collapse the pocket and pressure the quarterback or stop runs in the backfield. This scheme tends to shift it's linemen over or under and has the ends playing 4,5,or 6 technique, depending on the play call and the nose tackle plays shaded zero or even 1 technique.

So, you're going to have different styles of players in different schemes. This makes the whole discussion a huge mess because every team runs a slight variation on a theme and uses each lineman slightly differently on top of base scheme. I honestly don't know enough about each team to tell who runs what scheme or what technique with each player. If you know what's up with each scheme or player, please let me know... this is good stuff.

Steelers run a one gap, I think. Hampton is a two gap nose tackle, though... right?

I really don't understand the Ravens defense. Ngata is super athletic and huge, so I understand why they play him at the end. Kelly Gregg is really more of a one gap nose tackle, though... isn't he? I thought that was why Ray Lewis was making comments about not being protected by the linemen when they ran the 3-4 before drafting Ngata.

Packers run one gap because of Capers, so that makes sense. From what I've seen of Raji, he seems to be in attack mode all game.

I was really impressed with Antonio Garay when my 49ers played the Chargers. I can't imagine he's anything but a one gap nose tackle. Guy is a bit of an athletic freak... he beat the center David Baas off the snap before Baas got out of his stance. Then he got a penalty later in the game for trying to jump off the backs of 49ers linemen to block a field goal. Was wacky.... 49ers suck, so it may have made him look good. Heh.

That's about the extent of my knowledge of other teams. I don't know about the Chiefs or Jets... I imagine they follow the same scheme as the teams the coaches come from, so the Jets would be like the Ravens (whatever that means, I have no idea), and the Chiefs would run a two gap system. I can't remember who else runs the 3-4 consistently other than that....

Bottom line... it's very hard to tell the difference between one gap 3-4 defensive ends and defensive tackles. I'd include all three down linemen in a 3-4 as tackles for this discussion. They are all basically hybrids anyway, right? Many 3-4 ends move to tackle in a 4-3 nickle package.

Sorry for the long rambling post, I just find this stuff really interesting and it'd be neat to get the perspective of fans from other teams.

Now I'll give my list of tackles that aren't getting the love that I think they should be:

1) Casey Hampton

2) Justin Smith

3) Darnell Dockett

4) Antonio Garay

5) Fred Robbins

There's a bunch of others, but these really stick out to me. Justin Smith is the best, though... he has an Anheuser-Busch tattoo. That makes him win by default.

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Old 12-30-2010, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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I haven't watched the Chargers a lot this year but Garay has indeed been a boss. I've mentioned this before but it really stuck in my mind, he is so explosive and powerful that he was able to physically lift and throw our RG (who isn't playing RG anymore) at Manning for a sack. Very impressive player. Weird how he can be a career backup for years and suddenly flip a switch and play like a top NT.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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I haven't watched the Chargers a lot this year but Garay has indeed been a boss. I've mentioned this before but it really stuck in my mind, he is so explosive and powerful that he was able to physically lift and throw our RG (who isn't playing RG anymore) at Manning for a sack. Very impressive player. Weird how he can be a career backup for years and suddenly flip a switch and play like a top NT.
Yeah... plus the guy moves like he's 10 years younger than he is. 31 years old? I bet he has a fake ID. Heh.

Honestly, I looked him up after seeing him play and I was shocked. Not that 31 is really that old, but I know I could feel the difference between 21 and 31. Maybe that's because I've been sitting here typing on the couch the whole time....

Chargers fans, explain yourselves! Srsly, WTF?
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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Yeah... plus the guy moves like he's 10 years younger than he is. 31 years old? I bet he has a fake ID. Heh.

Honestly, I looked him up after seeing him play and I was shocked. Not that 31 is really that old, but I know I could feel the difference between 21 and 31. Maybe that's because I've been sitting here typing on the couch the whole time....

Chargers fans, explain yourselves! Srsly, WTF?
In fairness he's only been with the Chargers for 2 years. He was with the Browns first, then the Bears.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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Defensive line (DE/DT) is possibly the second hardest set of positions to play in the game, only second to QB.

It takes some guys years to figure it out. Look at Jason Babin in Tennessee. Only now, at 30, is he living up to his first round draft pick status.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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Defensive line (DE/DT) is possibly the second hardest set of positions to play in the game, only second to QB.

It takes some guys years to figure it out. Look at Jason Babin in Tennessee. Only now, at 30, is he living up to his first round draft pick status.
Is he the one with the weird-ass stance where he puts both hands on the ground and keeps his head down and ass way up in the air?
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Old 12-30-2010, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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Is he the one with the weird-ass stance where he puts both hands on the ground and keeps his head down and ass way up in the air?
Yeah, and he's also easily distinguishable by his huge tattoos running up and down his arms.
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Old 12-30-2010, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Defensive line (DE/DT) is possibly the second hardest set of positions to play in the game, only second to QB.

It takes some guys years to figure it out. Look at Jason Babin in Tennessee. Only now, at 30, is he living up to his first round draft pick status.
Cornerbacks around the league say 'hi' to you and to Roger Goodell.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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1-Haloti Ngata
2-Kyle Williams
3-BJ Raji
4-Antonio Garay
5-Ndamukong Suh
6-Jonathan Babineaux
7-Vince Wilfork
8-Jason Jones
9-Kevin Williams
10-Ahtyba Rubin
I have a very hard time buying into Suh at #5, albeit I'm a homer. Nontheless, his impact as a rookie has been massive. Leads all DT's in sacks, FR for a TD, INT off his own PD, all while being double-teamed on almost every play.
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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I have a very hard time buying into Suh at #5, albeit I'm a homer. Nontheless, his impact as a rookie has been massive. Leads all DT's in sacks, FR for a TD, INT off his own PD, all while being double-teamed on almost every play.
Not a homer statement. Ngata is the best. Suh is right there with Wilfork, Raji, Kyle Williams. I'd probably put Suh at #2 because he's made such a massive impact on the Detroit defensive line which is extremely impressive given being a rookie DL on a struggling team. Clarification: He's played at the #2 level, I'm not giving him a break because of those reasons. The other 3 are NTs and it's pretty tough to compare them because they do a lot of work that other players get credit for. I'd call it a 3 way tie. If I had to rank I'd put 3:Raji, 4:Wilfork, 5:K. Williams
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Old 12-30-2010, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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Best combo: Randy Starks & Paul Soliai.

:)
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Old 12-30-2010, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Some of you guys might not have noticed but Richard Seymour is not a full time DT and has played very well this year. Also Tommy Kelly is playing at a pro bowl level next to Seymour. They have a combine 12.5 sacks(7 for Kelly, 5.5 for Seymour). Seymour is no doubt a top 10 DT, and Kelly is close, maybe more for top 15
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RaiderNation View Post
Some of you guys might not have noticed but Richard Seymour is not a full time DT and has played very well this year. Also Tommy Kelly is playing at a pro bowl level next to Seymour. They have a combine 12.5 sacks(7 for Kelly, 5.5 for Seymour). Seymour is no doubt a top 10 DT, and Kelly is close, maybe more for top 15
Yeah I forgot about both of them actually. Don't think they would be in my top 5 but would follow closely. Wasn't Tommy Kelly the guy that got a huge contract a year or 2 ago that everyone said was absolutely insane?
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by umphrey View Post
Yeah I forgot about both of them actually. Don't think they would be in my top 5 but would follow closely. Wasn't Tommy Kelly the guy that got a huge contract a year or 2 ago that everyone said was absolutely insane?
Yes he was. Seymour coming to our defense has made everybodys play go up. Without Seymour Kelly is a above average DT, but with Seymour next to him he has played at a pro bowl level this year.
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by P-L View Post
Kyle Williams has arguably outplayed every other defensive tackle in football this year.
There's no solid argument against Kyle Williams.

People here don't like to watch these players and study them. They like to wait for a DT to catch there eye and then throw out a nonspecific word to describe the player, such as "beast."
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by noondog View Post
I have a very hard time buying into Suh at #5, albeit I'm a homer. Nontheless, his impact as a rookie has been massive. Leads all DT's in sacks, FR for a TD, INT off his own PD, all while being double-teamed on almost every play.
Derek Hardman, our UDFA backup RG who was forced into action because of injuries, handled him 1on1.

I think Suh will be #1 or #2 (along with McCoy) in 3-4 years but he's a bit overrated right now. His production is great but his overall impact doesn't match it.
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Old 12-30-2010, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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let's be real here, the Jags combo is going to be INSANE soon, if not now
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