New York Giants Discussion - Page 10

Giantsfan1080 · 07-01-2011, 11:36 AM

Well I agree with everything you said except for the part where if he was great then they wouldn't let him go. Plenty of guys hit FA who are good but the teams couldn't retain them for one reason or another. ATL didn't have that many LB's behind Boley and they still let him go. I know it was because there was a disconnect in coaching and what they were asking him to do but you get the idea.

bigbluedefense · 07-01-2011, 11:53 AM

Usually when a good player is let go it's bc of one of the following:

1. Youth movement
2. Not enough money to resign
3. Doesn't fit the new scheme
4. Doesn't get along with the coaching staff
5. Good depth behind him

But none of those apply to Poz. He's young enough that a youth movement doesn't make sense, they have enough money to resign him, he fit the scheme, he got along with the coaching staff, and there's no depth behind him.

So why are they letting him go? To me, I think it's bc they don't trust those knees anymore. I think buyer should beware with this guy.

Giantsfan1080 · 07-01-2011, 11:58 AM

It's definitely the health concern. I don't want any part of him. I was just making a general statement though.

bigbluedefense · 07-01-2011, 12:03 PM

Yeah I hear ya.

We're just gonna have to hope we can make do with what we have at LB. It is what it is.

I wonder if we would check out Darren Sharper as our 3rd safety this year. I'm also curious if we are going to sign a veteran Center as an insurance policy to our guys.

bigbluedefense · 07-01-2011, 12:46 PM

Check out this clip of Goff. Now I know you can't use a highlight clip as the end all be all of a player, but the guy looked damn good out there. It makes you wonder, is he really the problem? Maybe we just need more speed at the OLB positions.

He's a stud in the run game, I don't think any of us would question his ability to stuff the run. He just lacks a little speed and is a little stiff.

But to his credit, he's not slow by any means, he's just not fast either. And while he's stiff, he's very sound in his coverage assignments. Maybe we're all selling him a little short. Well...maybe I'm selling him short.

But then when you see stuff like that, it makes you wonder, what is the issue with our LB core? Bc I think we can all agree that there is an issue at LB, we need more speed. But how do we address it?

Is scheme part of the problem? Are we not using our LBs correctly? I'm sure thats part of it bc we are not a Tampa 2 team, but that can't be the only issue.

Maybe we need to go back and watch Boley and reevaluate him? Perhaps we are underrating Goff and overrating Boley? Is SAM the true issue? But our SAM was barely on the field bc we used 3 safeties much of the time.

I dunno. Now I'm confused.

bigbluedefense · 07-01-2011, 12:54 PM

Another one.

Giantsfan1080 · 07-01-2011, 12:59 PM

I think Boley really slowed down the 2nd half of the year. I don't know if it's because we ask him to cover more ground than our other LB's but he certainly didn't look as good. Goff was very solid all year and wasn't really out of position egregiously that I noticed. I'm fine rolling with what we have at LB until we find a stud at LB in the draft.

Our scheme is also an issue where we don't ask our LB's to do much. We have such great depth and strength on the DL and in the secondary that we don't need that high level LB even though we all know that would possibly put this defense on another level. The 3rd S last year helped limit the LB's in covereage which is their biggest weakness. Even Boley was caught out of position in that area last year.

Jughead10 · 07-01-2011, 01:01 PM

We've always needed a SAM. That's the biggest problem. We need someone who can get after the QB a bit when needed but not be a complete zero in pass coverage. We need someone like Dansby. And we have for several years now. All of our attempts at playing DEs there have failed. We even tried LaVar Arrington there and failed.

Goff is fine. The role of the the stud MLB as the cornerstone of the defense is coming to an end. You just need a player who can line up your defense, shed blocks, and stop the run. Anything they give you in coverage is just a bonus. With all the spread sets these days they aren't even on the field enough to warrant paying someone decent money.

bigbluedefense · 07-01-2011, 01:05 PM

So that begs the question: Should we go after Manny Lawson? From what everyone says about him, he's a stud in coverage and can stop the run and set the edge.

Not much of a pass rusher, but out of position in a 3-4. I can't speak on him bc I didn't pay much attention to him, but from what the board keeps saying about him, he'd be a great 4-3 SAM.

Giantsfan1080 · 07-01-2011, 01:05 PM

Random question but I really don't remember how Torbor was in pass coverage? Anyone remember him being solid?

Giantsfan1080 · 07-01-2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

So that begs the question: Should we go after Manny Lawson? From what everyone says about him, he's a stud in coverage and can stop the run and set the edge.

Not much of a pass rusher, but out of position in a 3-4. I can't speak on him bc I didn't pay much attention to him, but from what the board keeps saying about him, he'd be a great 4-3 SAM.

Honestly I'd rather invest that money elsewhere and just find that LB In the draft eventually. The time will come where we get lucky and have a stud LB drop to us in the 1st.

bigbluedefense · 07-01-2011, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Honestly I'd rather invest that money elsewhere and just find that LB In the draft eventually. The time will come where we get lucky and have a stud LB drop to us in the 1st.

Here's why I'm confused. When you watch the Giants defense, what's been exposed over and over and over again the past 2 years is the deep post down the middle of the field, and underneath coverage of scrambling qbs or flat coverage.

So isn't that an LB problem? Primarily a MIKE problem? The issue won't go away on it's own, yet when you break down Goff it doesn't seem like he's the problem. I can't figure it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Random question but I really don't remember how Torbor was in pass coverage? Anyone remember him being solid?

Mediocre. But Spags just ran a different scheme. He'd drop into flats basically if he ever was in coverage, nothing major. And he would blitz the MIKE up the A gap very often to take him out of coverage, so he really put a lot more emphasis on the secondary to hold up in coverage, usually in man coverage.

Lots of single high S instead of 2 deep safety shells.

Big_Pete · 07-03-2011, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

He doesn't solve any problems for us though. He's not overly athletic. When he was coming out he was athletic enough, but not anymore. He's gone through knee injuries.

We might as well stick with Goff. Goff isn't a terrible MIKE, he's a very solid one who is probably unappreciated. If we're going to replace him, it should be with a guy who is athletic.

Goff is great at lining his guys up and reading plays. He's just not a leader. Leadership can only do so much though. Pierce was a leader. He was a leader with love handles who got pancaked by blockers and beat like a drum in coverage. Let's not pretend he was perfect either.

We need athletic linebackers. That's what's missing from this team. Boley is athletic, but has been injury prone since he got here and a little soft in the run game. We need an athletic MIKE in the worst way.

Think of it this way, if Poz was that great, they wouldn't let him go. It's not like Buffalo has so many other guys they need to pay that they can't afford Poz. They're just letting him go. That's a red flag to me, especially when a team that lacks talent is willing to let go one of their guys who is somewhat talented.

I will agree to disagree about Pos, I think he does upgrade our LBs. Sure he isn't an OLB any more, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be an upgrade here at MLB.

I find it interesting that you say Pos doesn't have leadership, others have said he is a leader both on the field and in the locker room. Sure Poslunzsy isn’t flashy, but he just gets the job done. Lets not forget he is playing behind a very suspect Dline in Buffalo.

The Bills aren't just letting Pos go, they did give him a very high RFA tender (much higher than we gave our guys), so he is a guy they want back.

I'm also not giving up on Goff, I would like to see him slide over to SLB.

Big_Pete · 07-03-2011, 06:30 PM

The other guys I could see potentially as Giants next year are James Anderson and Rocky McIntosh.

bigbluedefense · 07-04-2011, 06:10 PM

No, I didn't say Poz has no leadership.

I'm saying that he's not going to give us anything athletically that would make me want to pay him to replace Goff.

He's basically Goff. We already have that. In fact, he's Goff with very questionable knees.

If we're replacing Goff, it's gotta be with a guy who has superior athleticism, or else there's no point.

And Goff isn't a SAM. He's a pure MIKE.

Big_Pete · 07-05-2011, 09:12 PM

If we keep Goff at MLB, what about a guy like Rocky McIntosh or Thomas Howard at OLB?

Big_Pete · 07-06-2011, 01:17 AM

I think Osi is going to cause problems once the lock out is over, he wants (and probably deserves) his big pay day which he isn't going to get here.

With that in mind I have been looking at potential player for player trade options at our need positions. (We aren't likely to get what we perceive Osi's value to be in terms of draft picks)

Here is an Osi trade idea that I am floating out there (its been quiet for too long)

DE Osi Umenyiora for LB Aaron Curry straight up

Curry has been a decent LB for their 4-3, but Pete Carroll has had to defend his pass rushing ability, some are calling him a bust. But he is big, physical, fast and has good coverage skills.

Curry does have a high cap number as a former #4 draft pick (around $13.2 mil).
salaries (2011: $5,076,250 (+ $5 million roster bonus), 2012: $5,757,500, 2013: $5,938,750, 2014: $8.12 million, 2015: Free Agent)

I think Curry could be available for the right deal. It would allow them to invest in other key areas.

The Giants would also save $2mil from Osi's current contract. We may need to rework the deal (perhaps an extension turning some of the salary/bonus into a signing bonus), but as it stands we would have a 4 year, $30mil deal ($22m through the first 3 years)

For the Seahawks, a stud pass rusher like Osi would be ideal and could be enough to ensure they can win the NFC West, particularly as they can get a decent OLB in free agency.

The Giants are built to win now, we need to get something for Osi. Adding a guy like Curry would be exactly what we need to turn around our LBs. Like it or not we can replace Osi.

Curry for us wouldn't necessarily have to play SLB. How about playing Curry as a MLB or even WLB? Also our Dline is much better than the Seahawks, so that could also help.

any thoughts?

bigbluedefense · 07-06-2011, 11:40 AM

I wouldn't hate the idea of Howard or McIntosh on our team, but I wouldn't like it either. They would both improve our LB core, but I really think we need to draft a linebacker. I know history shows that we won't, but I really hope we do. We've ignored it for far too long.

As for Osi...he's under contract for 2 more years. He really has no chips to play with. I'm expecting him to be a Giant for at least one more year.

Giantsfan1080 · 07-06-2011, 12:35 PM

I basically just want to make sure we re-sign Smith and Bradshaw in FA. Anything after that is gravy.

bigbluedefense · 07-06-2011, 12:39 PM

I would like to keep Kiwi and Boss as well. Lord knows I kill Boss all the time, but we have no depth behind him.

And if Jacobs is willing to stick around for less money, keep him too. We need 2 reliable backs. I like Ware, but the guy can't stay healthy.

bigbluedefense · 07-06-2011, 12:52 PM

I wouldn't mind DeAngelo Williams btw. He might come around the same price tag bc of his age, and he's the superior RB.

Giantsfan1080 · 07-06-2011, 12:56 PM

Jacobs is signed already. The big 5 FA's are Smith, Kiwi, Bradshaw, Cofield, and Boss. I'd like to realistically get 4 of them back except for Cofield which I think we have a very good chance. If I had to pick just 2 though it would be Smith and Bradshaw. Kiwi would be next followed by Boss.

bigbluedefense · 07-06-2011, 01:02 PM

I agree with that. If we lose Boss, I see us transitioning to more of a spread offense bc Beckum can't seal the edge like Boss can.

Unless we move Pascoe back to TE, and bring back Hedgecock to play FB.

I wish we were better prepared for this and drafted a TE in the middle rounds. Last year we saw Jimmy Graham (who is going to be a monster) go in round 3 and Aaron Hernandez go in round 4.

I guess we have faith in Beckum in case we lose Boss. I hope so, but I dunno, he just doesn't have a TE body. He seems miscast in our offense.

Giantsfan1080 · 07-06-2011, 01:03 PM

I think Boss is a cheap sign and most know it. He'll be back. They need to come to a damn deal already.

bigbluedefense · 07-06-2011, 01:07 PM

We have Terrell Thomas due for an extension soon too don't we? Plus we'll most likely have to choose between Kiwi and Osi in a year.

I feel like our roster could be very different in a year or 2. It seems like Reese has prepared for this for the most part, so we won't go into a rebuilding phase, but some familiar faces are going to off the Roster soon.

Like half the starting oline, a couple of dlinemen, a CB (Ross), maybe even a safety (If Kenny has a setback), maybe a LB overhaul, and some new RBs.