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Old 07-30-2011, 08:41 PM    (permalink
BaLLiN
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Why would I want to use a site that subjectively grades players when instead I can show you actual, you know, statistics that describe a player's performance?

Did you not read what footballoutsiders posted? 3.2 yards per pass. That means he allowed fewer yards per pass than ANY other CB in football. He simply did not give up completions of any note last year. He was excellent in coverage. If you watched any Eagles games, you'd agree.

I don't even understand, how as a Giants fan you could possibly say Asante gets "burnt" because every time the Giants play the Eagles, the only time Eli ever throws to Asante's side anymore the football is usually coming back in the opposite direction and the Eagles offense takes over, right?
Um...dude first off, calm down. Second off, use the right part where it shows you the completion percentage per a certain yardage, gives them grades vs run and pass, and then grades them by those statistics in a much more detailed manner than your site.

Do you understand that, you know, 3.2 yards per pass is not a specific enough stat to tell me that he wasnt burnt. If I watched Eagles games Id understand he was rarely in man to man, but played zone and had MUCH LESS RESPONSIBILITY than most corners do.

I don't even understand, how as an Eagles fan you could possibly come in and troll on a conversation where I say in a matchup, that Asante WOULD get burnt, instead of your false statement that i said he DID get burnt.

Now, lets play some tape. I clearly recall Nicks making Asante look like stupid in his rookie season, so I'll relook some more film to see if there was anything else. Or you know, you can keep trolling and putting words in my mouth.
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Old 07-30-2011, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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yeah, watched the last two years, didnt see samuel play man once, good thing you guys are moving to a more man-style defense with DRC and Nnamdi where samuel will be out of place.

The 3.2 is soo misleading bc asante plays zone with little to no responsibility, basically playing curl to flat, maybe a little deeper (7-12 yards)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL1o0TxAkCk
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Old 07-30-2011, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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I hate those stat sites. They make football into a damn math class. Just watch film and the concepts being run. See the Xs and Os of the game, and break that down.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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I hate those stat sites. They make football into a damn math class. Just watch film and the concepts being run. See the Xs and Os of the game, and break that down.
If you actually watched any Eagles games from 2010 then you'd agree with me. The only CBs that were burnt last year were whichever scrub they had playing opposite Samuel on any given day.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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wait, people are still trying to justify asante is a good CB? my lord, when will it stop? the dude can't tackle and has average man skills. as a zone corner and ball skills, he's top notch...but outside of that, he's rather pedestrian
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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The Giants have signed OG/OC Chris L. White

Take that Eagles!!! LOL
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:08 PM    (permalink
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I hate those stat sites. They make football into a damn math class. Just watch film and the concepts being run. See the Xs and Os of the game, and break that down.
Well i did both, I hope that makes him go away. Bottom line, the way Asante has been used by both the eagles and new england is more like a QB spy than anything else. His responsibility is considerably less than a traditional corner's but they do this because it pays off.

Now moving to a new defense, if he's in this role then let's get some longer routes going bc their safeties are clearly a weakpoint, but if he is not and is forced into even off man, he's probably going to get burnt based off of his forty time (4.49 which he clearly trained for bc he ran a 5.4 as a sophmore in hs which is freakin slow) and now he's 30. So there, we'll see what happens.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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If you actually watched any Eagles games from 2010 then you'd agree with me. The only CBs that were burnt last year were whichever scrub they had playing opposite Samuel on any given day.
But I didnt say he got burnt, i said he will in a man on man matchup with Manningham or Smith. So your argument has nothing to do with what i said.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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But I didnt say he got burnt, i said he will in a man on man matchup with Manningham or Smith. So your argument has nothing to do with what i said.
Asante can shut down any of the Giants receivers in his sleep.

I think all of major yardage and points scored in the last two Eagles-Giants games by the Giants were all on running plays, completions to the TE, or completions to the left side of the field against Dimitri Patterson (especially in the last one). I don't remember any of the Giants WRs having good days in either game except when they were burning Dimitri Patterson, who is obviously not an NFL-caliber player.

In the first game especially, Eli was absolutely terrible and threw more picks than TDs, due to no small part the fact that Asante basically makes Eli his personal b**** in every Eagles-Giants game.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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Well i did both, I hope that makes him go away. Bottom line, the way Asante has been used by both the eagles and new england is more like a QB spy than anything else. His responsibility is considerably less than a traditional corner's but they do this because it pays off.

Now moving to a new defense, if he's in this role then let's get some longer routes going bc their safeties are clearly a weakpoint, but if he is not and is forced into even off man, he's probably going to get burnt based off of his forty time (4.49 which he clearly trained for bc he ran a 5.4 as a sophmore in hs which is freakin slow) and now he's 30. So there, we'll see what happens.
I am just talking in general, no one specific. I see those stat sites mentioned on various boards, and it comes one big stat throwing contest between posters. Very annoying to watch. Pretty much it goes:

I have a football point... Throw those numbers and stats, as if the person worked in an accounting field, and then the other guy tosses it back, and molds it for his argument.

Stats are good, but at the end of the day, my advice is just watch the game. The eye in the sky doesn't lie.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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I am just talking in general, no one specific. I see those stat sites mentioned on various boards, and it comes one big stat throwing contest between posters. Very annoying to watch. Pretty much it goes:

I have a football point... Throw those numbers and stats, as if the person worked in an accounting field, and then the other guy tosses it back, and molds it for his argument.

Stats are good, but at the end of the day, my advice is just watch the game. The eye in the sky doesn't lie.
Numbers don't lie either.

If the numbers say that a CB held opposing passers to 3.2 yards per attempt... what that means is that you take the yardage total for all passes attempted in his vicinity, and then you divide that number by the number of attempts made. Easy, right? If *any* long completions were made, or even multiple long completions, it would skew the final figure and inflate it to reflect that. The fact that his total yards per attempt given up is as low as 3.2 means that Samuel simply did not give up many, if any at all, long completions. And the fact that 3.2 yards per attempt is the lowest of *ALL* cornerbacks in the NFL means that he was, basically, the best cover cornerback in the entire NFL last year.

Why is it so hard to respect stats in this game? Either he gave up a bunch of completions, and it would show in that figure, or he didn't. Period. You don't need to watch every game to understand that statistic and what it means.
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Old 07-30-2011, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Numbers don't lie either.

If the numbers say that a CB held opposing passers to 3.2 yards per attempt... what that means is that you take the yardage total for all passes attempted in his vicinity, and then you divide that number by the number of attempts made. Easy, right? If *any* long completions were made, or even multiple long completions, it would skew the final figure and inflate it to reflect that. The fact that his total yards per attempt given up is as low as 3.2 means that Samuel simply did not give up many, if any at all, long completions. And the fact that 3.2 yards per attempt is the lowest of *ALL* cornerbacks in the NFL means that he was, basically, the best cover cornerback in the entire NFL last year.

Why is it so hard to respect stats in this game? Either he gave up a bunch of completions, and it would show in that figure, or he didn't. Period. You don't need to watch every game to understand that statistic and what it means.
Before I even discuss anything, I just want to point out that you're on the Giants team forum section. If we want to be massive homers it's well within our rights as fans. Coming here to cry (and troll, btw) because you didn't like what a Giants fan on a Giants fan board said about an Eagles player makes you appear belligerent and, quite frankly, foolish. If we say something regarding an Eagles player that you think is horse **** on the general forums, NFL forums, or anywhere else - feel free to share your opinion on how we are incorrect. Trying to do so in the comfort of our team forum is asinine, though.

In addition, I'd just like to point out the lunacy of trying to use pure statistics in the game of football. I'm the first person to support advanced statistics in other sports where they are applicable, such as baseball. I'm a huge fan of sabermetrics, and other forms of stats for baseball, but trying to judge the value of a corner back when schemes, style of defense, man coverage vs. zone coverage, as well as any number of variables, is laughable. I think we can all agree some statistics are invaluable in football, but the idea that the effectiveness of a corner can be judged purely by statisitics is silly.

Not to mention it's hilarious how you keep telling us to "OMG DOOD WATCH ALL THE GAMEZZZZ" and then have the urge to tell us about two games a year where Eli has been zomgpwnnneeeed by Samuels. Samuels is a ****** corner. Isn't that counter-intuitive to your argument? Tell us to watch all the games, and then focus primarily a small sample size of games?

But yeah, my transcending point is don't come onto a team specific forum and act like a tool. We don't mind Eagles, Cowboys or any other teams fans speaking here (you're certainly not prohibited from doing it by any means) but don't antagonize Giants fans with your Eagle homerism bull ****. You have your own forum to do that, and one that we typically don't jump onto in order to dispute any claims you may make about our players.

Anyways, I SAY GOOD DAY SIR!
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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stats can be skewed, absolutely. Is YPC true of a runners ability, or a ****** OL? You can twist and turn most stats to your argument. Stats can also be quite telling as well, but they aren't the end all to every argument.
plus, if a player is "good" or not, can be quite subjective, and I've seen enough Asante Samuel over the past 4-5 years to safely say, as an all around corner, I find him to be quite pedestrian. He excels in zone coverage, baiting QB's and has superb ball skills, but his "tackling" is absolutely atrocious and his man skills are below average
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:21 AM    (permalink
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Plax is a Jet. I pretty much knew he wasn't coming here, especially after Eli pretty much dissed him.

Guess what that opens the door for guys? :)

Come onnnn, don't you wanna say "He got Moss'd."

Doesn't that roll off your tongue perfectly?


Well, anyway, looks like we're gonna have to hope Mario/Barden can consistently beat DRC. Mario runs the wrong route half the time and Barden is always hurt. Awesome.

Cruz did well in practice yesterday. I think we got something there fellas. If he tears it up this preseason, why not throw him in as our 3rd WR?
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:25 AM    (permalink
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I wasn't really aboard the Plax bandwagon to begin with. I think we've really got something with Jernigan. I'm a big fan of his. I think he could be a real explosive playmaker for us. I know he's just a rookie, but I'm excited about him.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:31 AM    (permalink
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I didn't quite understand the Jerrigan pick, when Victor Cruz showed us so much as a potential slot WR last year plus we have Barden in the wings.

I figured Jerrigan to be a punt returner for the immediate future.

I don't think Hixon makes the team. I don't see how he does. Jerrigan will take over his kick/punt return duties, and we have Nicks, Smith, Mario, Barden, Jerrigan, Cruz, all most likely making the team. That's 6 right there.

I think Devin Thomas will make the 7th spot as a special teams ace.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:35 AM    (permalink
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I didn't quite understand the Jerrigan pick, when Victor Cruz showed us so much as a potential slot WR last year plus we have Barden in the wings.

I figured Jerrigan to be a punt returner for the immediate future.

I don't think Hixon makes the team. I don't see how he does. Jerrigan will take over his kick/punt return duties, and we have Nicks, Smith, Mario, Barden, Jerrigan, Cruz, all most likely making the team. That's 6 right there.

I think Devin Thomas will make the 7th spot as a special teams ace.
well I have a feeling Mario may very well be gone after this year. Some team is going to throw big money at him and he's gonna bolt. Jernigan is the speedster that could replace him. And Cruz is nice and all, but I am really loving Jernigans playmaking ability and explosiveness. He's more explosive than Cruz. And I think we're going to have a very good punt returner for the first time...**** probably since Ron Dixon. (excluding Hixon). And I think we're realizing Barden just...isn't that good. He's a red zone threat and really poor, poor mans Plaxico.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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Barden needs to stay healthy. If he's hurt this season too, then maybe it's time to move on.

His biggest issue has been health. I can't remember the last time he was healthy.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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Well this is Barden's third year, and that's usually make or break time for NFL receivers. I guess it's all up to what he shows us this year.

He wasn't bad when he played just got injured, but he can't have that happen to him again.

I loved this guy coming out, and was really happy we drafted him, but right now he's starting to get frustrating. I hope the best for him, and I pray he can develop into a mini-Plax.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Relax guys that Foreskins fan said they signed a 10 plus sack guy in Barry Cofield. End of discussion.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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Barden needs to stay healthy. If he's hurt this season too, then maybe it's time to move on.

His biggest issue has been health. I can't remember the last time he was healthy.
I think I read he's already starting the season on PUP. So he won't count against the roster for a little bit. Don't know how long he is expected to miss though.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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Why would I want to use a site that subjectively grades players when instead I can show you actual, you know, statistics that describe a player's performance?

Did you not read what footballoutsiders posted? 3.2 yards per pass. That means he allowed fewer yards per pass than ANY other CB in football. He simply did not give up completions of any note last year. He was excellent in coverage. If you watched any Eagles games, you'd agree.

I don't even understand, how as a Giants fan you could possibly say Asante gets "burnt" because every time the Giants play the Eagles, the only time Eli ever throws to Asante's side anymore the football is usually coming back in the opposite direction and the Eagles offense takes over, right?
One year doesn't negate a career. Asante had a hugely productive year, but just because you didn't get burned biting on things doesn't mean you weren't making mistakes and Asante was just being Asante and it worked great last year, the years before, not so much. So if Eli's not throwing to confused receivers who don't know where they'll be I'm not as concerned about Asante as I am Aso. Nicks - Aso, Smith - Samuel and Mario/Barden - DRC is a match up I'm not too opposed to. Smith won't be stupid like many past giants receivers Asante has had to "cover", Nicks can get some work done against Aso and Mario/Barden can burn DRC if he's being over aggressive. I like the way we match up even with Asante coming off of one of the best years of his career.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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Numbers don't lie either.

If the numbers say that a CB held opposing passers to 3.2 yards per attempt... what that means is that you take the yardage total for all passes attempted in his vicinity, and then you divide that number by the number of attempts made. Easy, right? If *any* long completions were made, or even multiple long completions, it would skew the final figure and inflate it to reflect that. The fact that his total yards per attempt given up is as low as 3.2 means that Samuel simply did not give up many, if any at all, long completions. And the fact that 3.2 yards per attempt is the lowest of *ALL* cornerbacks in the NFL means that he was, basically, the best cover cornerback in the entire NFL last year.

Why is it so hard to respect stats in this game? Either he gave up a bunch of completions, and it would show in that figure, or he didn't. Period. You don't need to watch every game to understand that statistic and what it means.



No. They don't lie, but they can be molded to fit any argument. Soon, people just focus on that. Like I said no one specific, I am just talking in general here. But you get guys who post who just use those damn sites as their mode of making cases. Just stats and stats alone. I am saying that I find annoying.

And if you are lucky enough, you may find 2 fans who use stats debating. I am telling you now that's stupid to watch. You need a forensic accountant to weed through the numbers.

Again, I didn't read what you two are talking about. I just saw those damn links, and it reminded me of a pet peeve about stats.
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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One year doesn't negate a career. Asante had a hugely productive year, but just because you didn't get burned biting on things doesn't mean you weren't making mistakes and Asante was just being Asante and it worked great last year, the years before, not so much. So if Eli's not throwing to confused receivers who don't know where they'll be I'm not as concerned about Asante as I am Aso. Nicks - Aso, Smith - Samuel and Mario/Barden - DRC is a match up I'm not too opposed to. Smith won't be stupid like many past giants receivers Asante has had to "cover", Nicks can get some work done against Aso and Mario/Barden can burn DRC if he's being over aggressive. I like the way we match up even with Asante coming off of one of the best years of his career.
And remember on the Raiders Aso did not shadow the #1 receiver he strictly played one side, we'll see if the Eagles continue to do this or not. If they continue to keep Aso on one side we can easily mix and match receivers along the field, and we have enough solid ones to keep the Eagles off-balance. If the Eagles decide to make Aso shadow most of the time we'll see if he is just as effective he was in Oakland.

One way or another, Aso will have the ball thrown at him much more this year, and though I expect him to perform very well, I don't think we see the dominance he displayed in Oakland.

But I am still a bit paranoid by him; Zach Miller would be the perfect kryptonite to that secondary. ;)
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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I don't get why we went after Plax in the first place, I love the guy, but he's old and hasn't played in 2 years, we already have Nicks, Mario, Jernigan, Barden, Cruz, Hixon, Calhoun, Thomas and we wanna bring back Smith...were does he fit in all that?

Right now I think we just have too much of the same type of receiver and the pick or Jernigan only adds to the log jam. Smith, Mario, Cruz, Jernigan, Hixon, Calhoun. Do we really need all of them? Our WRs should look like this: Nicks, Smith, Mario, Barden, Cruz, Thomas(ST). That Jernigan pick is really starting to annoy me. I'm all for drafting value, but maybe we should make sure they will be able to see the field before we take them. I don't care if Cam Newton fell to us, you don't take him because you have Eli Manning. At least if your gonna take a WR, don't take a clone of what we already have.

If the FO was serious about going after Plax and feels we need another WR, why not go after Braylon Edwards? We went after him twice so far in his career and he wants to stay in NY. Braylon opposite of Nicks with Smith in the slot sounds damn fine to me, until I think of the others. Were does that leave Mario, Cruz, Barden, Jernigan and the others? I don't feel like our only reliable WR is Nicks, but adding another receiver only adds to the mess we have there right now.

/rant
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