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Old 08-02-2011, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
We want your first round pick. K? Thnx.
A 2nd and Carlson I'd consider...
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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I like that the Giants are getting no love, we always choke when the media loves us. But when the Giants are the underdogs we go whoop ass, and I hope Tuck or Rolle or someone on this team preaches the underdog theory and lights a fire under this team.
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I know, I have faith in the Giants.

If you think about it, our teams are built very similarly. Our dline is better than theirs, both our LB cores have issues, both our secondaries are very good but theirs is better on paper, both of us are deep at WR, have questionmarks along the oline, have a franchise qb and a good run game.
DT: After losing Barry Cofield in free agency, I'm going to have to give the edge to the Eagles, especially after their signing of Cullen Jenkins. Marvin Austin and Linval Joseph have potential, but at this point they are still completely unproven. The Eagles have more depth and proven talent at this position right now.

DE: I'll give the definite edge to the Giants because Osi and Tuck are superior to Babin and Cole, but it's not as wide of a gap as you might believe. If the Giants are forced to trade Osi and rely on JPP this year, then the talent level is probably equal or even in favor of the Eagles unless JPP suddenly develops into a force in his second season, which is not a foregone conclusion at all.

LB: I'd say it's a push. They both have a mix of some average-quality veterans and some rookies/sophomores with some potential. Nothing stands out on either team just yet.

CB: Right now it's hard to argue that the Eagles don't have more talent at this position. Say what you want to say about being better on "paper", but very few people would argue that Asomugha, Samuel, and Rodgers-Cromartie aren't, collectively, better than anything the Giants have.

S: The Eagles are relying on mostly rookies and second year players at this point, while the Giants have two proven veterans and an oft-injured, but talented, third year player. I'll give the edge to the Giants, but it's not a huge edge because none of the Giants safeties are more than slightly above-average at this point (Phillips being their best player, Rolle being overpaid for his talent level).

WR: Both teams have talented young players. The Eagles have more speed, however. Probably a push, or in favor of the Eagles depending on the status of NY's Steve Smith (if he doesn't play next year, the Giants are limited to Nicks and Manningham?)

RB: LeSean McCoy is a top 15 RB in the NFL. Bradshaw and Jacobs are both solid. The Giants have more proven depth, but the I'd probably take McCoy over Jacobs or Bradshaw player vs player. Slightly in favor of the Eagles.

QB: Vick has more raw talent than Eli, but is also more injury prone. It's hard to give either team a clear edge because their playing styles are so dramatically different. It all depends on how you feel about Vick's ability to play a full season without injury. The Eagles clearly have better depth, however, with Vince Young being probably the most talented backup QB in the NFL.

OL: The Eagles have quality starters at LT, LG, and C. They have a rookie penciled in to start at RG, but that rookie is a first round pick that scouts were very high on. RT is somewhat up in the air depending on the status of Winston Justice. The Giants cut half of their OL in the off-season and will be starting a free agent in C, and likely starting rookies or sophomore players at one or more positions along the line. Diehl and McKenzie are solid players but a bit past their prime. Both lines have some questions, but the Eagles have more pure talent at this point, and younger talent.

TE: The Giants lost Kevin Boss and will have to find a new TE in trade or free agency. The Eagles have Brent Celek, Clay Harbor, and Donald Lee. I'll give the edge to the Eagles, for sure.

K/P: The Eagles are relying on a rookie kicker, but that kicker was the best kicker in college football last year. The punter situation is a question mark. The Giants are still relying on Lawrence Tynes at kicker. Matt Dodge showed flashes of both brilliance and ineptitude last year. Because of the question marks for Philly in this area, I'll give the edge to the Giants.

To recap:

DT: Eagles
DE: Giants (pending Osi trade, then Eagles)
LB: Push
CB: Eagles
S: Giants
WR: Push (pending Steve Smith status, then Eagles)
RB: Eagles
QB: Subjective
OL: Eagles
TE: Eagles
K/P: Giants
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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We get it you like the Eagles roster enough already.
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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A 4th and Carlson should do it.

You have no leverage in trade talks. Osi's clearly disgruntled.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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A 4th and Carlson should do it.

You have no leverage in trade talks. Osi's clearly disgruntled.
You clearly dont know who you are dealing with. Jerry Reese does not make moves in a position of weakness.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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We get it you like the Eagles roster enough already.
I was trying to make an objective assessment of both, compared to each other.

I'm sure I missed a few points; could you tell me where I was off/wrong?
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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I was trying to make an objective assessment of both, compared to each other.

I'm sure I missed a few points; could you tell me where I was off/wrong?
I will be honest I didn't really read the whole thing. Just don't like to see Eagles talk about how they are better at us at this and that in my team discussion thread.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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You missed Kiwi at DE for us and you missed Weatherford as our new punter. Tynes has been very good for us the last 2 years as well. I don't know what oft injured 3rd year S you meant. Phillips had the one injury and is a full year back from it now. On the OL we'll probably not starting any rookies or soph's. This will be Beatty's 3rd year. What's wrong with having a FA OL? Baas was probably the best FA C out this year and he's certainly an upgrade over O'Hara. Otherwise that could have been a lot worse.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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You clearly dont know who you are dealing with. Jerry Reese does not make moves in a position of weakness.
Then he'll probably have to keep Osi. Here's hoping Osi has a smile on his face this season.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:15 PM    (permalink
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Then he'll probably have to keep Osi. Here's hoping Osi has a smile on his face this season.
You say it like its a bad thing. This is not the 1st time Osi has complained so its nothing new for the Giants. If anything thing this can motivate him to play well and help his trade value.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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A 4th and Carlson should do it.

You have no leverage in trade talks. Osi's clearly disgruntled.
No way that would happen. Osi has be more productive then Shockey, and we got a 2 and 5 for him. Granted that's a different team, GM, and market, but a 4th is no where near what I'd give for someone with double digits sacks AND NFL record for force fumbles.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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I was trying to make an objective assessment of both, compared to each other.

I'm sure I missed a few points; could you tell me where I was off/wrong?
That was a relatively fair assessment. I don't think it was bad at all. I expecting to be very bias.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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I think a 3rd and Carlson could get Osi. I hope it does happen so we get Boss :)
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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That's not bad, though I would rather have a 2nd, but I wonder what reese would think about that. It's not the pick you'd want, but you are getting a TE which could help. It would be interesting to see if we are trying to "settle" for a 2, since we can't get a 1, which is probably the best possible case. Ideally, I am guessing we are looking for a 2. I am curious to see what we'd do if that offer was made for Osi.
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Old 08-02-2011, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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The Herman Johnson Era didn't last long

The Giants waived OL Herman Johnson today. Reason given is "left squad." #nyg
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Old 08-02-2011, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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I'm upset about Chase. He was one of our best special team players.
I am not that fussed about Chase, we need guys for more than just special teams, we have plenty of young talent at LB who will do a good job on specials teams, there just isn't enough roster sports.

I am impressed with the young LB talent we have this year, so I am hoping quality play emerges (much like our WR group when Plax/Toomoer left). I think our LB play has potential but needs to take it to the next level. If Goff and Sintim can step up for example, it looks much better.

Greg Jones and Mark Herzlich will be pushing for playing time earlier rather than later, both are the instinctive style of LB we badly need.
Williams and Tracy have some good physical tools, Tracy may get some reps at SLB, he looked good early last year.
Williams is more of a developmental guy, but thats ok being behind Boley.
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Old 08-02-2011, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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We made a offer for Kuhn but he said No

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2...for_fullb.html
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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Ben Patrick took #89 so that's probably the end of Boss.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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He was issued #83.
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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We made a offer for Kuhn but he said No

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2...for_fullb.html
whats interesting is that our offer was higher than the 3 year $7.5m he got with the packers.

Considering that the Giants had a very tough cap situation that is a lot of interest and very good money for a FB.

I wonder whether us chasing Kuhn could have cost us a quality LB - for example Stephen Tulloch got a 1 year $3.25m deal which is not much more than we offered Kuhn.

Will we look at LeRon McClain?

Perhaps our interest in Jason Snelling is due to Kuhn resigning with the Packers.
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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DT: After losing Barry Cofield in free agency, I'm going to have to give the edge to the Eagles, especially after their signing of Cullen Jenkins. Marvin Austin and Linval Joseph have potential, but at this point they are still completely unproven. The Eagles have more depth and proven talent at this position right now.

Despite what other fans think, Barry Cofield is overrated. Fred Robbins was a much more productive DT and showed this when he was used in the correct way with Spags w/ the giants and rams. I believe the giants upgraded the position not only with drafting Austin, signing URFA Parker, signing Gabe Watson, moving Canty to UT instead of NT, but with Linval Joseph stepping into the lineup.

Joseph is a monster, and in a rotation with Watson we should see a vast improvement to run defense up the middle. Austin, Canty, Parker or whoever else makes the roster at UT should be worlds better bc Austin and Canty were both playing NT in their defenses and moving to a 1 on 1 matchup with the guard is going to deliver at least 1 or 2 big plays a game.

You can say eagles won this with Jenkins being the reason, but I believe our DTs will perform better.


DE: I'll give the definite edge to the Giants because Osi and Tuck are superior to Babin and Cole, but it's not as wide of a gap as you might believe. If the Giants are forced to trade Osi and rely on JPP this year, then the talent level is probably equal or even in favor of the Eagles unless JPP suddenly develops into a force in his second season, which is not a foregone conclusion at all.

If we trade Osi, we will be better. Kiwi and JPP vs the run compared to Osi vs the run is a great improvement. The dropoff in passrush might be a little to start off, but Kiwi had 4 sacks in 3 games before injury and JPP is easily the most freakish athletic player. JPP is gunna be good. We win this without question, big gap.


LB: I'd say it's a push. They both have a mix of some average-quality veterans and some rookies/sophomores with some potential. Nothing stands out on either team just yet.

This is a tossup

CB: Right now it's hard to argue that the Eagles don't have more talent at this position. Say what you want to say about being better on "paper", but very few people would argue that Asomugha, Samuel, and Rodgers-Cromartie aren't, collectively, better than anything the Giants have.

Rumor has it that Asante is looking for a trade, if that happens we win easily. How your corners are used once the season start will dictate who wins this, you have bigger name talent but we have more depth with all 5 being starting caliber players.

S: The Eagles are relying on mostly rookies and second year players at this point, while the Giants have two proven veterans and an oft-injured, but talented, third year player. I'll give the edge to the Giants, but it's not a huge edge because none of the Giants safeties are more than slightly above-average at this point (Phillips being their best player, Rolle being overpaid for his talent level).

Kenny will be better another year separated from his surgery. Rolle really came into his own once Fewell started using him as a blitzer, but I'd like to see him used as a joker/rover type player because he is a playmaker on the defense. The fact that you say its not a huge edge is why you should never post in here again.

WR: Both teams have talented young players. The Eagles have more speed, however. Probably a push, or in favor of the Eagles depending on the status of NY's Steve Smith (if he doesn't play next year, the Giants are limited to Nicks and Manningham?)

I will say Eagles, mostly because of how well Andy uses them in his offense.

RB: LeSean McCoy is a top 15 RB in the NFL. Bradshaw and Jacobs are both solid. The Giants have more proven depth, but the I'd probably take McCoy over Jacobs or Bradshaw player vs player. Slightly in favor of the Eagles.

Again, how McCoy is used makes him the better player, but in tandem im taking Jacobs and Bradshaw.

QB: Vick has more raw talent than Eli, but is also more injury prone. It's hard to give either team a clear edge because their playing styles are so dramatically different. It all depends on how you feel about Vick's ability to play a full season without injury. The Eagles clearly have better depth, however, with Vince Young being probably the most talented backup QB in the NFL.

Anytime you have a mobile QB, Vince Young is not the most talented backup in the NFL, but he is a good fit for the Eagles with his skillset being close to Vick's so the offense wont need to completely change what they are doing.

I do think that with Vick's playingstyle he will get injured, but he is soo much more dangerous.


OL: The Eagles have quality starters at LT, LG, and C. They have a rookie penciled in to start at RG, but that rookie is a first round pick that scouts were very high on. RT is somewhat up in the air depending on the status of Winston Justice. The Giants cut half of their OL in the off-season and will be starting a free agent in C, and likely starting rookies or sophomore players at one or more positions along the line. Diehl and McKenzie are solid players but a bit past their prime. Both lines have some questions, but the Eagles have more pure talent at this point, and younger talent.

The Giants cut 2 OL who were both injury plagued and on the decline/end of their careers. Koets played extremely well, better than O'Hara, and when healthy I think he beats Baas. Baas is a very good run blocking C, so with his fit i think we get a slightly above average starter.

We wont be starting a rookie/sophmore anywhere...you clearly dont know anything about the Giants, at least not enough to declare who has the better line.

Beatty(3rd year) - David Diehl - Baas/Koets - Chris Snee - McKenzie

Eagles allowed sacks; qb pressures: 49 (4th worst) ; 101 (3rd worst)

Giants allowed sacks; qb pressures: 16 (tied for league best) ; 52 (4th best)


Per: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...qualified=true

Plus....

Winston Justice is on your line, you lose.


TE: The Giants lost Kevin Boss and will have to find a new TE in trade or free agency. The Eagles have Brent Celek, Clay Harbor, and Donald Lee. I'll give the edge to the Eagles, for sure.

I agree

K/P: The Eagles are relying on a rookie kicker, but that kicker was the best kicker in college football last year. The punter situation is a question mark. The Giants are still relying on Lawrence Tynes at kicker. Matt Dodge showed flashes of both brilliance and ineptitude last year. Because of the question marks for Philly in this area, I'll give the edge to the Giants.

I have no idea, this is a tossup as well.

To recap:

DT: Eagles Giants
DE: Giants (pending Osi trade, then Eagles) Giants w/o a doubt
LB: Push Tossup
CB: EaglesEagles depending on Asante trade and how they are used by a OC as a DC
S: GiantsGiants
WR: Push (pending Steve Smith status, then Eagles)Eagles
RB: Eagles Giants
QB: Subjective Eagles
OL: Eagles -_______- ...... Giants
TE: Eagles Eagles
K/P: Giants Tossup
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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A 4th and Carlson should do it.

You have no leverage in trade talks. Osi's clearly disgruntled.
How do we have no leverage? It's not like it matters if Osi pouts and says he wont play. We have 2 other DE's that could start. He's the one that has no leverage.

Heck the Chargers needed a WR badly but didnt cave on VJax. We told him he could look for a trade only if it were a non-nfc east team and for a 1st round pick. We not only did this because we'd be willing to do it, but i think we did it because we know no one would give us that. Osi thinks he would net a 1st round pick because he wants elite DE money, but this will show him he's not worth that if no one offers a 1st. If they do then we're happy to be compensated.

The only thing the giants have to worry about is Tuck or Kiwi getting injured and only having JPP and one of them playing. We need a rotation to be effective.

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Then he'll probably have to keep Osi. Here's hoping Osi has a smile on his face this season.
two seasons ago Osi complained about not being a starter, we kept him out. He wasnt playing well enough probably bc he was just recovering from an injury a season previous. He stepped up his game (at least passrushing-wise) and regained his position. If he comes back he'll just play well, he wants to get paid and the only way to do that is to perform up to the standards of an elite DE (passrusher and run defender).
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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So now we're only asking for a 2nd rd'er for Osi. If a good team like the Ravens gives that up and we pick late 2nd it's not worth it. This is ****.
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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So now we're only asking for a 2nd rd'er for Osi. If a good team like the Ravens gives that up and we pick late 2nd it's not worth it. This is ****.
please seattle, give us your first.
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