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Old 02-03-2013, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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I actually think Nicks is slightly more important to the team as we saw this year. I think we 100% have to find a way to keep both though.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Yeah but the issue is he is always hurt. That's a big thing if you give him lots of money and his injuries all linger.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Agreed but as we've been saying that might bring the price down. Reese is going to have his work cut out for him this offseason and next.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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I like Nicks a lot, but that's the one big turnoff, is that he is always hurt! He is like the Justin Tuck of our offense. Getting hurt and coming back is fine, but when those injuries linger and then some other part gets hurt because of it that's an issue. His leg and then knee was the issue this year. It's not like he has blazing speed to begin with, so he needs whatever speed he has.

Last injury prone Wr we had was Tim Carter. Nicks is still young, but when I think of him, I keep thinking he is like 26 or 27 because of all these injuries. I don't want us to invest lots of money in a guy who keeps breaking down at a young age.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, it's tough. And there is a big difference between Tim Carter and Hakeem Nicks, NYG. Mainly that Tim Carter sucked dong and Nicks is a top 10 WR (when healthy).

I'm hoping we can get Nicks relatively cheap. And when I say cheap I mean it in the sense we get him for a discount of what he SHOULD get if he didn't have all the injuries. Obviously he's not going to take a bad/low ball offer.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, it's tough. And there is a big difference between Tim Carter and Hakeem Nicks, NYG. Mainly that Tim Carter sucked dong and Nicks is a top 10 WR (when healthy).

I'm hoping we can get Nicks relatively cheap. And when I say cheap I mean it in the sense we get him for a discount of what he SHOULD get if he didn't have all the injuries. Obviously he's not going to take a bad/low ball offer.
Yeah, talent wise big difference. But the frustration with Carter was we couldn't see how good he could be because he was a china doll. Every time you saw a flash of talent, he broke.

Nicks is more of a tease! He has talent and we see it a lot more, but he is always hurt. In our system especially, we can't afford starters to get hurt. We can't have guys who don't know the choice and option routes playing. So any kind of injury or player turnover hurts us more in that regard.

I think we are making this public as a way to get leverage on Cruz or his agent, and also you want to make a deal and extend Nicks coming off an injury. Try to get him cheaper than you would off a pro bowl season.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, talent wise big difference. But the frustration with Carter was we couldn't see how good he could be because he was a china doll. Every time you saw a flash of talent, he broke.

Nicks is more of a tease! He has talent and we see it a lot more, but he is always hurt. In our system especially, we can't afford starters to get hurt. We can't have guys who don't know the choice and option routes playing. So any kind of injury or player turnover hurts us more in that regard.

I think we are making this public as a way to get leverage on Cruz or his agent, and also you want to make a deal and extend Nicks coming off an injury. Try to get him cheaper than you would off a pro bowl season.
I mean, every team has players that are going to get hurt. It's just the nature of the business. Plus, a lot of Nick's injuries have just been flukey type injuries. Either way, if we can get him for a bit cheaper and have him for 13-14 games at 100% plus the playoffs every year it's worth it to me. This year was just a strange year.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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I mean, every team has players that are going to get hurt. It's just the nature of the business. Plus, a lot of Nick's injuries have just been flukey type injuries. Either way, if we can get him for a bit cheaper and have him for 13-14 games at 100% plus the playoffs every year it's worth it to me. This year was just a strange year.
Ideally, if a player got hurt and then came back 100%, then people say dislike how the player got hurt. With Nicks he was pretty much useless after the injury. A decoy basically his role was.

Yeah it's the nature of the business, but then you have players who are injury prone. Barrett green, Carlos Emmons, Tim Carter, Nicks, Justin Tuck, and KP. That's just off the top of my head.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, I know BBD will disagree probably, but this Super Bowl and post-season has proven to me how overrated the LB position really is. The 49ers have two of the best LB's in the game and their defense has been god awful the entire post-season.

The reason they've fallen off is because their secondary (outside of 1-2 players) is crap and their pass rush has fallen off the face of the earth. Aldon Smith has worn down and been a non-factor in the post-season and has very little help because their two amazing LB's can't rush the passer.

That's the bottom line. At best, what do Bowman and Willis take away? The run game and the middle of field. That's really not much at all. Especially because taking away the run game is a team effort more than anything else.

An elite CB takes away an option of the QB. Not only that but it opens up the defensive play calling because you can blitz more and allow the safety to do other things. An elite pass rushers changes how the QB throws the ball on almost every play. That's huge too.

LB's just don't come close to having that impact and this post-season, and heck, even our Super Bowl wins should prove that. How did we win our Super Bowls? Great pass rush, great secondary, below average LB's.

I suppose the point of my post is this: I don't care about linebackers. Unless this is a Von Miller type LB who can play the run, be an elite pass rusher and cover then I don't want to bother drafting one early. I don't want us to draft one in the first two rounds. The first three, ideally. Address the offensive line, address the defensive line, address the DB situation. That's how you produce an elite defense.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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You're simplifying it too much. That premise makes sense if you're talking about man coverage. But you run zone 50% of the time. And linebackers cover TEs. So their worth in coverage is just as valuable as the secondary. It's not like they don't cover anyone.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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That's the thing. How many good receiving TE's are there compared to WR's? Certainly not nearly as many. That automatically diminishes a LB's ability to cover a TE compared to a CB's ability cover a WR. Secondly, it's not like Willis and Bowman were helping shut down TE's all year. Pitta and Dickinson made plenty of plays. I'm not putting that all on them because, as you said, they aren't in man coverage all the time nor is covering the TE always their responsibilities. I'm just making that point because you brought it up. However, they certainly didn't shut down a lot of good TE's either. Gonzalez did great, Aaron Hernandez had success against them, and so on.

They just aren't that valuable. I'm sorry. I just don't believe they are. Willis can't rush the passer for a damn. Same with Bowman. It's not like they're shutting down TE's every game and even if they are, how many great TE's are there to shut down?

My point is LB's just don't make that much different on defense and this post-season certainly showed that when the two best LB's in the league were on a defense that couldn't stop anybody. And the reason they couldn't stop anybody was directly attributed to a lack of coverage and pass rush.

I know that's not a popular notion with the heritage we Giant's fans have with great LB's but it's the truth. And I'm not taking about the Von Miller's, Aldon Smith's and Clay Matthews of the world. I'm talking about the Patrick Willis' and Navrro Bowman's of the world. A very big difference.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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Why not have both though? Why is it a crime to have linebackers? If a Bobby Wagner type was there in the 2nd round, you wouldn't take him?
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Why not have both though? Why is it a crime to have linebackers? If a Bobby Wagner type was there in the 2nd round, you wouldn't take him?
That depends. If there is a good DE/CB/OL on the board, absolutely not. A good DE/CB always outweighs a good LB. That's my main point, really. Now, if there is a good LB on the board and the value really isn't there for a DE, CB or whatever then yes, by all means go with the BPA.

Considering we won two Super Bowls with mediocre to poor LB's doesn't really make me worry about passing on a LB though.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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That depends. If there is a good DE/CB/OL on the board, absolutely not. A good DE/CB always outweighs a good LB. That's my main point, really. Now, if there is a good LB on the board and the value really isn't there for a DE, CB or whatever then yes, by all means go with the BPA.

Considering we won two Super Bowls with mediocre to poor LB's doesn't really make me worry about passing on a LB though.
Times are changing though. With RGIII and Chip Kelly in the division, Russell Wilson and Kaepernick in the NFC, were gonna need linebackers to get back to the Super Bowl.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Times are changing though. With RGIII and Chip Kelly in the division, Russell Wilson and Kaepernick in the NFC, were gonna need linebackers to get back to the Super Bowl.
Meh, we're going to need pass rushers and corners even more. Four games a year can't change your entire philosophy. At the end of the day it was the traditional drop back passer that led his team to the Super Bowl win.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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Meh, we're going to need pass rushers and corners even more. Four games a year can't change your entire philosophy. At the end of the day it was the traditional drop back passer that led his team to the Super Bowl win.
We're a Cover 2 defense. We need linebackers more than CBs in this scheme. DL is clearly king which is why I always want pass rushers, but as long as we're a Cover 2 defense we might as well build it the right way.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Yeah but as a Cover 2 D we won the Super Bowl. We shouldn't build the D around Fewell. I'm with Alex on this one.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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Yeah but as a Cover 2 D we won the Super Bowl. We shouldn't build the D around Fewell. I'm with Alex on this one.
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But yes, I'm not willing to build for Fewell's system. It'd be silly, especially when he could easily be fired during the season if he didn't get it together. That's not a guy you go out and start finding pieces for his system. We go with Jerry's philosophy which is to get pass rushers, get DB's, and address LB's later in the draft and in free agency.

I mean, think about it. You can't have a stud player at every position in the salary cap era. Where would you rather spend less money? DB? DE? Not me. LB just isn't as important as those positions so why spend a ton of money there?

Think about how we've won Super Bowls. With Eli and pass rushers/secondary. Who have been our LB's in those years? Chase Blackburn? Kawika Mitchell? Gerris freakin' Wilkerson? An aged Antonio Pierce? Our system works. For me its clear. I'm not worried about LB. Find some JAG players and if you hit on a stud in the later rounds even better. Save the money and spend it elsewhere.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:42 PM    (permalink
Big_Pete
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Yeah but as a Cover 2 D we won the Super Bowl. We shouldn't build the D around Fewell. I'm with Alex on this one.
I agree, but at the same time with how the NFL is evolving, we do need fast athletic linebackers.

I completely understand that the defensive line and secondary are higher priorities, but we do need talented LBs who aren't liabilities. I think that would make quite a difference.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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It's about value. I'm not drafting a DE just to draft a DE. If the LB on the board is rated higher, we better get the LB.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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man. i just want Ziggy to fall to us. it just would be the most perfect of fits
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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I want that too. Realistically it won't happen but if it does, wow. And if he's on the board and we pass, what a kick in the nuts that would be!
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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I want that too. Realistically it won't happen but if it does, wow. And if he's on the board and we pass, what a kick in the nuts that would be!
Reese wouldn't pass on a guy like Ansah without there being a very good reason for it. So if he's there, we'll take him. I'm almost positive we will.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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JPP wasn't supposed to be available even near our pick either. With the number of other DL prospects I could see a lot of the teams ahead of us that go DL looking for someone safer and more ready to make an immediate impact since a lot of them don't have the depth there that we do. Ziggy can absolutely still fall to us.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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I honestly think one of those "safer" guys falls not Ansah.
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