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Old 08-02-2013, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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The only player I'm attached to on the Giants is Eli Manning. As far as I'm concerned, everyone else can go. As long as we have #10 under center, we'll be ok.

I prefer to keep certain players, sure, especially guys on defense bc defense doesn't have the luxury of having a qb equivalent that can make everyone else better, but I'm not attached to any of them. Except Eli.

It's gonna be a sad sad day when Eli hangs it up.
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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Ed Reed was Ed Reed. He had all-time great instincts and an elite physical tool box to break on balls he had no business getting to. He's not the same player today, but he was THE stud safety you're referring to.

Earl Thomas is Earl Thomas. For all the heat he takes, there's no safety in the league with better range. His range is what allows the Hawks' corners to do what they do.

That's one guy. I don't see another Earl Thomas in this league.

That's what separates the secondary. I just don't see the Giants, or really any team, finding another Earl Thomas any time soon. You have to do the best with what you have.

We can play cover 3 press and cover 1 press on every down because of him. Most teams can't.
You won't hear any arguments from me. I think Earl Thomas is the best FS in the game.

Jarius Byrd is a FA though after this season, and it sounds like the Bills won't be able to keep him. If I'm the Giants, I'd go after Byrd. He's no chop liver either.
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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The only player I'm attached to on the Giants is Eli Manning. As far as I'm concerned, everyone else can go. As long as we have #10 under center, we'll be ok.

I prefer to keep certain players, sure, especially guys on defense bc defense doesn't have the luxury of having a qb equivalent that can make everyone else better, but I'm not attached to any of them. Except Eli.

It's gonna be a sad sad day when Eli hangs it up.
I agree 100%! I fought for him since he came into the league I won against evil doers who were misinformed! Outside of him, I feel the same way too. That's why I say, players come and go, if we have Eli good things can always happen.

I will be very sad too. I was at the draft day when we drafted him. My friends and I left at 5 am from Boston, where I went to college, to Giants Stadium for the draft. He came down to the field level and I was there. I will try to go to his HOF too. That would be special for me. Be there when he was drafted and be there when he goes to the HOF.
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Perry is good at working with Ss, he sucks with his blitz packages, LBs and CBs, but he's gotten a lot out of some guys who needed a lot of work mentally and technically.
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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I'm high on Rueben Randle for two reasons, in order:

1) Eli Manning
2) Rueben Randle

Think about how many guys Eli has made look great over the years, and just the number of guys who we knew where good, but he made even better or at least continued to help them produce (like Toomer).

Steve Smith
Jake freaking Ballard
Martellus Bennett had a career year
Ramses Barden, who sucks, had an amazing game with him

I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting.

It also makes you wonder what Victor Cruz would be doing had he chose another team to sign with...
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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You won't hear any arguments from me. I think Earl Thomas is the best FS in the game.

Jarius Byrd is a FA though after this season, and it sounds like the Bills won't be able to keep him. If I'm the Giants, I'd go after Byrd. He's no chop liver either.
Byrd is amazing, but he's looking for more than Goldson got guaranteed, which I don't think we can afford. Plus I know it's buffalo, but I have a hard time seeing them let Byrd go, especially after the reasoned away letting levitre walk so they'd have money to keep Byrd. Who doesn't quite have Earl's range, but I think he's better at the other aspects of safetying which makes them very close.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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Don't get me wrong - there are other terrific FS in the league.

But BBD's comment was about Seattle being a blueprint.

Truthfully, Seattle's corners would probably be average or even below in any other system. The only reason Seattle can do what it does is because of Thomas' unique skillset as a center fielder. And my point is that it's not really possible to copy THAT system, but to instead collect talented players such as Byrd or whoever and actually count on your corners to not get beat deep (which Seattle doesn't have to most of the time).
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Don't get me wrong - there are other terrific FS in the league.

But BBD's comment was about Seattle being a blueprint.

Truthfully, Seattle's corners would probably be average or even below in any other system. The only reason Seattle can do what it does is because of Thomas' unique skillset as a center fielder. And my point is that it's not really possible to copy THAT system, but to instead collect talented players such as Byrd or whoever and actually count on your corners to not get beat deep (which Seattle doesn't have to most of the time).
You won't hear any arguments bro. I've been saying this for awhile now. Everyone thinks it's the opposite, but it's really Earl who makes the CBs look better.

I'm not saying forcefeed Seattle's coverage shells on our defense, but ideally you want to run what Seattle runs. It's the best combinational approach to stopping the run and the pass in today's NFL. That or a 2 gap 3-4 defense that stacks and flows. But we don't have the front for that.

Ideally, I'd like to see Seattle's coverage schemes with a 46 front. That's my dream defense right now as the NFL currently stands.

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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
I'm high on Rueben Randle for two reasons, in order:

1) Eli Manning
2) Rueben Randle

Think about how many guys Eli has made look great over the years, and just the number of guys who we knew where good, but he made even better or at least continued to help them produce (like Toomer).

Steve Smith
Jake freaking Ballard
Martellus Bennett had a career year
Ramses Barden, who sucks, had an amazing game with him

I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting.

It also makes you wonder what Victor Cruz would be doing had he chose another team to sign with...
It's all about Eli really. As long as he's under center I'm not too concerned about WR. I do feel that Cruz was more important than Nicks in the sense that I think the outside WR is more easily replaceable in this scheme than the slot guy. But I also think that Cruz would not be as successful outside of this scheme. He'd thrive in NE bc they run the same scheme, Chan Gailey's offense would also be ideal. Cruz would be productive anywhere he has a good qb, but this scheme is perfect for him. It's a good marriage.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Don't get me wrong - there are other terrific FS in the league.

But BBD's comment was about Seattle being a blueprint.

Truthfully, Seattle's corners would probably be average or even below in any other system. The only reason Seattle can do what it does is because of Thomas' unique skillset as a center fielder. And my point is that it's not really possible to copy THAT system, but to instead collect talented players such as Byrd or whoever and actually count on your corners to not get beat deep (which Seattle doesn't have to most of the time).
You won't hear me disagreeing. Earl's the one guy who just obviously covered even more ground than Kenny, it's ridiculous. But my comment was directed more towards BBD's point about the FS becoming one of the keys to battling modern offenses. Byrd doesn't have Earl's range because no one does, but Byrd can cover a lot of ground himself and brings physical playmaking aspect that Earl doesn't. They're really 1a/1b in my eyes at FS in todays game and while you couldn't build your scheme around Byrd taking away the deep ball like Earl does, you can still build a beautiful defensive backfield for stopping today's offenses.

I actually am not nearly as big of a fan of Seattle's schemes as I am their talent, sure the D is great, but when you have an earl thomas back there letting everybody else be so much more aggressive you can totally just run a vanilla defense. But it's hard to get that type of talent together, and it's even harder to hold onto it all, which is why I don't think Seattle should be the model we aspire to schematically.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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I don't like Seattle's Elephant/Leo front, but I do like their coverage schemes. And I like that they're a multigap multifront defense.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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We will have a elephant front of our own in a way.. A big beefy DL personnel package we are toying with.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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It's going to be a sub package that's used on rare occasion though. They use it as their base defense. Big difference imo.

Everyone is trying to copy their defense bc it's the flavor of the month. The players make the scheme, just like any defense. But I think the key to take away as a fan of defense is what makes their scheme successful, and take those layers and incorporate what you can into your own defense.

Their defense is successful bc of the players first and foremost. It's also successful bc the multigap multifront approach is difficult to block and confuses protection schemes, and the body types they use in their secondary work well vs big physical WRs of today's NFL along with being able to support the run vs read option teams.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Paul Schwartz ‏@NYPost_Schwartz 42s
Safety coach Dave Merritt says Stevie Brown will be used more in the box this season. #nyg
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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That's odd. He's been lining up as the single high in practice.

I'm not a big fan of our safety coach btw. I think he's too strict in his ways. Safeties are players who need to roam sometimes. You can't take away a safety's playmaking ability.

Sometimes you have to let them hunt, even if it means getting out of position. Merrit hates you unless you play your assignment to the T every single time. It takes away from the innate playmaking ability that safeties have.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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This is my post to a friend on BBI. I disagree with this move to inside the box.

It just doesn't make sense. That's why you loaded up signing 28318923891 DTs. Why? To stop the run. We have the 3 safety look where that S can play in the box or drop into coverage. We have Lbs that can stop the run as well now that the Dts are signed and capable.

It has nothing to do with a shot at Fewell. You are taking a guy in year 1 who did make momentum changing plays in the form of turnovers, which by the way is the whole point of Fewell's system. Turnovers! You take a guy who led the team in it and now sticking him in a spot where he is a glorified LB.

I will give it a chance, but it just doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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Stevie played SS for us last year, so it's not really a change for him.

Plus, you're making the mistake of looking at DTs as the cure all for run support. They'll help, but it's still a numbers game. You need to account for every gap. That often times means bringing a safety in the box.

Don't forget, with the read option, now there's an E gap that also must be accounted for. Which is why I said the FS is so important now bc you're forced to use more single safety looks than ever before bc of that.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Stevie played SS for us last year, so it's not really a change for him.

Plus, you're making the mistake of looking at DTs as the cure all for run support. They'll help, but it's still a numbers game. You need to account for every gap. That often times means bringing a safety in the box.

Don't forget, with the read option, now there's an E gap that also must be accounted for. Which is why I said the FS is so important now bc you're forced to use more single safety looks than ever before bc of that.
I think it's a solid assumption. I think our DTs failed and thus it was a mess. There is a reason why we went balls to wall in signing every FAT DT out there. I think we should evaluate Fewell and the whole defensive staff on how they adjusted to the read option, which will be undone this year. All we need is 1 team to figure it out so to speak and every team will copy. I think of it as a joint effort.

But let's see how Fewell utilizes this. So we have all these DTs. Quick LBs, and 3 safties. He seems paranoid about the run. We did suffer last year, but he should worry about the passing game specifically the home run ball. If 1 guy shows a knack for turnovers and shows even better range. ( This was the next tweet.)

Ebenezer Samuel ‏@ebenezersamuel 2m
Merritt indicating Stevie Brown showing more range this year. Credit all the offseason balance work..

Well then let's put him back more. Year 2 let's see if the mental part has sunk in. If it did now you have a player with more range going around trying to get turnovers, which is what this god awful defensive philosophy is predicated upon.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by NY+Giants=NYG View Post
I think it's a solid assumption. I think our DTs failed and thus it was a mess. There is a reason why we went balls to wall in signing every FAT DT out there. I think we should evaluate Fewell and the whole defensive staff on how they adjusted to the read option, which will be undone this year. All we need is 1 team to figure it out so to speak and every team will copy. I think of it as a joint effort.

But let's see how Fewell utilizes this. So we have all these DTs. Quick LBs, and 3 safties. He seems paranoid about the run. We did suffer last year, but he should worry about the passing game specifically the home run ball. If 1 guy shows a knack for turnovers and shows even better range. ( This was the next tweet.)

Ebenezer Samuel ‏@ebenezersamuel 2m
Merritt indicating Stevie Brown showing more range this year. Credit all the offseason balance work..

Well then let's put him back more. Year 2 let's see if the mental part has sunk in. If it did now you have a player with more range going around trying to get turnovers, which is what this god awful defensive philosophy is predicated upon.
It wasn't just DTs. Linebackers were terrible at tackling and hitting their gaps as well. DEs weren't setting the edge. Safeties were taking horrible angles. It was a joint effort throughout the defense. You can't single out the DTs. Were they a problem? Absolutely, but they weren't the only problem.

We signed a lot of DTs bc we had mediocre DTs. We drafted a big NT bc Joseph could walk. It's not as black and white as you're making it to be.

In this defense, the DTs stack. In defense, there's 4 terms to remember when it comes to run stopping:

1. Stack
2. Flow
3. Downhill
4. Penetrate

The combination is dependent on the scheme. We're multigap. Our DTs stack (2 gap), our DEs penetrate (1 gap), our LBs are taught to play downhill (one step toward your gap prior to snap).

Flow means you stay neutral and flow to the gap after the RB takes the hand off.

We're downhill stack with zone coverage/pattern reading. Lots of Cover 2 and Cover 3.

Now the gaps themselves all need to be accounted for. And that depends on formations and what the offense is doing etc. It can get complicated and isn't something I can explain without the chalk board.

One thing to remember is, when talking about defense, the run and pass integrity go hand in hand. You must stay gap disciplined in everything you do, including pass coverage. So understanding gaps, and how defenses play gaps is what allows you to understand how they align and what kind of coverages/blitzes they're in.

It also allows you to understand how to block them. That's why being multigap is so important, bc it makes it difficult for offenses to identify their man. It's a double edged sword though bc defenders can also get confused bc of it's complexity.

Typically rule of thumb is, if you see a defender head up on a OL, he's stacking (2 gap). If he's playing off a shoulder, he's penetrating (1 gap).
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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http://mmqb.si.com/2013/08/04/giants...nse-cant-rest/

Great write up on the Giants. That website has a lot of great content on it. I hate Peter King, but I'm impressed with the website he put together. He has some quality writers and articles on there. Greg A Bedard is a Garafolo clone. And a Rutgers alum too.

One thing I particularly liked about this article is how it eluded to our zone defense and the difficulties of zone defense. When you run a zone defense that requires pattern reading, or zone defense in general, the success of your coverage is HIGHLY dependent on communication and chemistry. It's very difficult running a zone defense bc it takes a ton of practice. You have to have a feel for the guys around you and everyone has to be on the same page with communication. Who goes where when certain patterns are noticed, all of you have to recognize the same patterns etc.

When properly ran, it's a great coverage. But the difficulty is execution. And when injuries mount, it becomes even more difficult to run because the chemistry and communication is gone. It also makes your back 7 less multiple because you want the same guys in there all the time so your chemistry and communication is at it's peak.

Because of that, zone defense is very difficult to execute on a consistent basis. Almost all coverage breakdowns you see are with zone defenses.

That is why our defense struggles on the back end. Mix injuries with an overly complicated pattern reading rules that Fewell employs, and you have a ton of breakdowns. And our defenders are more man coverage defenders anyway from a physical standpoint.

That's why I love man coverage. Ideally you want to be able to run both, but I prefer a man heavy scheme because I feel it's easier for the players to play at their peak speed, there are less breakdowns, and your coverage is more sound as a whole.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. You don't need to run complicated zones to confuse a qb. You can do what Rex does, and use complex fronts and blitzes to confuse protection schemes and have simplistic but effective man coverages behind it.

That's what I personally like. I really hate our scheme.

Of course, OCs have plays on their playsheet that are man coverage beaters and zone beaters that they'll use when they see a defense lean heavily one way or another, so it's important to be able to play both man and zone and mix it up as a playcaller to leave OCs and QBs guessing, as well as disguise the looks presnap.

But I'd prefer 65% man 35% zone as my defensive coverage.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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The HOF speech was a good speech. It's amazing how many HOFers Bill had. Harry Carson and LT. And a lot of just great players. How many of Coughlin's players get in? I count 2. Strahan and then Eli. TC gets in too.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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The HOF speech was a good speech. It's amazing how many HOFers Bill had. Harry Carson and LT. And a lot of just great players. How many of Coughlin's players get in? I count 2. Strahan and then Eli. TC gets in too.
Don't forget Jacksonville. Fred Taylor probably won't get in but thats a 10,000 yard fringe HOFer. Also Tony Boselli would have been a sure HOFer had injuries not destroyed his career.

And Tiki is a fringe guy like Taylor.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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Boselli was a monster.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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I can't wait until TC gets in. That would be a great moment. I like his career especially with us in this FA era. I think his story of being a coach who the media and some players hated to a guy who people like is something amazing. It's like a feel good story hollywood makes movies about.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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It does look like Fewell is changing things up a little on defence. I am curious to see how it shapes up.

It certainly does look like we are at least considering 3-4 looks to our defence http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post...-show-some-3-4

We have the big bodies up front to consider 3-4 options if we wanted with the likes of Joseph, Jenkins, Hankins and Rogers.

We have had some looks with Jenkins at LDE and Joseph and Rogers inside in our "big" packages - it isn't far from there to use JPP, Kiwi, Tracy, Moore or even Tuck standing up as the LEO.

The other thing to note is that Jim Hermann has hinted 1st and 2nd down being completely seperate to 3rd downs, with completely different schemes and players.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:56 AM    (permalink
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A lot of teams are going to use 3-4 looks against the read option this year. It could be our way of adjusting to the read option. I think we're still a base 4-3. We probably use this 3-4 package on occasion but it won't be a staple or a transition for us.

I personally think we shouldn't run any 3 man lines at all, but Perry Fewell is an idiot so go figure.
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