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Old 10-01-2013, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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I think OG would probably suit him best if he's having issues at Tackle. If not, just leave him at Tackle. I don't think he has the anchor to be a C.

The Cowboys worked him out as a C during predraft workouts. Don't know what they thought though.
He is not that bad. He is doing better than some other higher drafted players. Right now, however, it's a systematic failure. Snee is sidelined. So add a raw player next to Pugh. Center is Cordle.. So yeah.. Cordle. Then Boothe and then Beatty. But from OC to RT it's youngons.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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I don't understand why you want to move a rookie who's playing well at OT to OG just bc. It makes no sense to me.

Especially when interior OLmen are easier to find that OTs. So why move him to OG and create a bigger hole for yourself at OT in the offseason? Makes no sense.

And moving him midseason to OG makes even less sense bc who the hell is gonna play RT? You're creating a bigger hole to address a smaller hole.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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I don't understand why you want to move a rookie who's playing well at OT to OG just bc. It makes no sense to me.

Especially when interior OLmen are easier to find that OTs. So why move him to OG and create a bigger hole for yourself at OT in the offseason? Makes no sense.

And moving him midseason to OG makes even less sense bc who the hell is gonna play RT? You're creating a bigger hole to address a smaller hole.
I think he will be a better fit at those positions. If you watch Pugh he has a hard time engaging and staying fit the chest of the DEs. I don't think it's the short arms, but rather the strength. Could 1 more offseason help him? Sure, but I think his technique and smarts be better served at inside. I think the OT position can be better served with someone who fits the mold of Kareem M.

I am not talking about doing this now. Off season once this season is done.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:30 PM    (permalink
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I don't understand why you want to move a rookie who's playing well at OT to OG just bc. It makes no sense to me.

Especially when interior OLmen are easier to find that OTs. So why move him to OG and create a bigger hole for yourself at OT in the offseason? Makes no sense.

And moving him midseason to OG makes even less sense bc who the hell is gonna play RT? You're creating a bigger hole to address a smaller hole.
Exactly. When we picked him I figured he'd end up moving to LG and dominating the way Diehl did, but he's been so good at RT that at this point we should leave him there until he stops excelling. Especially cause if we really suck we'll be able to find a quality starter for the interior in round two, and if we don't suck that hard we can always grab a monster for the inside with our first.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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I think he will be a better fit at those positions. If you watch Pugh he has a hard time engaging and staying fit the chest of the DEs. I don't think it's the short arms, but rather the strength. Could 1 more offseason help him? Sure, but I think his technique and smarts be better served at inside. I think the OT position can be better served with someone who fits the mold of Kareem M.

I am not talking about doing this now. Off season once this season is done.
I think this will depend on how the board shapes up come draft time. If an elite OG is on the board do you pass him bc you think you can slide Pugh to OG, or do you just take him?

I think you take him. Bc you need 2 OGs anyway so if Pugh does struggle at OT in the future you can always put him on the inside anyway. We need a whole new interior anyway.

But if he keeps improving and playing as well as he has at OT then keep him there. OTs are hard to find.

To think, if we cut Snee and signed Levitre (same price as Snee) we would be ok.

But loyalty to aging veterans on this team has caught up to us. The front office knew we needed a house cleaning but thought we could sneak another year out of this group but they were wrong.

Now it's time to blow it up and start over.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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Don't you dare even mention Levitre or I'll start talking about how sexy Geno is.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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I think this will depend on how the board shapes up come draft time. If an elite OG is on the board do you pass him bc you think you can slide Pugh to OG, or do you just take him?

I think you take him. Bc you need 2 OGs anyway so if Pugh does struggle at OT in the future you can always put him on the inside anyway. We need a whole new interior anyway.

But if he keeps improving and playing as well as he has at OT then keep him there. OTs are hard to find.

To think, if we cut Snee and signed Levitre (same price as Snee) we would be ok.

But loyalty to aging veterans on this team has caught up to us. The front office knew we needed a house cleaning but thought we could sneak another year out of this group but they were wrong.

Now it's time to blow it up and start over.
I stick to the integrity of the draft board. I always maintain that. I noticed once he does engage and settle his feet and shift his body weight Pugh does very well. I noticed guys use speed and strength to bull rush him back causing his feet to move, and that's when they get around him. Putting Myers on that side is useless too since that mofo is undersized.

That's why I think Pugh would be better served in the interior where he can get more combo blocks with a stronger OT or OC. I think his technique will allow him to get good leverage on the DT, and help plus him, can use brute strength to open up holes.

That's the thought process based on what I have seen so far. Well to be fair, let's address the joke between us. Take the mid range project OL pick and like it. Ironically, that's a big thing. Our OL has degraded due to age, injury, and missed draft picks. We saw the signs when our OL retired one by one. We thought our project picks would help. We missed on Petrus, and Koets got hurt. Cordle, Brewer, and Mosley are whatever. Cordle is terrible. Booth is above average. After that we got PS guys.

So that joke between you and I come draft time ironically has bite the team inthe buttock.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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I think once he gets a full NFL offseason under his belt he should strengthen his base and be ok. But I think you give him another year at OT unless he really regresses this year which I don't anticipate.

I want a lot of help on defense as well, but there's no way we can ignore the issue at OL anymore. We need at least 1, if not 2 guys along the interior.

But it all depends on the board. And what we do in FA. As much as I want linebackers we might have to skimp on them again. Which pains me but what can you do.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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I think once he gets a full NFL offseason under his belt he should strengthen his base and be ok. But I think you give him another year at OT unless he really regresses this year which I don't anticipate.

I want a lot of help on defense as well, but there's no way we can ignore the issue at OL anymore. We need at least 1, if not 2 guys along the interior.

But it all depends on the board. And what we do in FA. As much as I want linebackers we might have to skimp on them again. Which pains me but what can you do.
I am going to observe this draft and Ross. Since Ross has taken over full time at his Director of College Scouting, our drafts have progressively gotten worse with a lot of swing and misses.
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Has it though?

You want 3 to 4 players per draft. We are around that range still. Except for 2 big misses with Austin and maybe Wilson, we've been on par.
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:15 PM    (permalink
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Has it though?

You want 3 to 4 players per draft. We are around that range still. Except for 2 big misses with Austin and maybe Wilson, we've been on par.
Austin, Barden, JJ, Clint S., Petrus, Greg Jones,Dillard, Beckum, Bomar, and Kehl.


That's a lot of swing and misses! That's 2008 on when Ross took over and had his first draft. He has since been promoted to Vice President of Player Evaluation.


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Marc Ross is in his first season as the Giants’ Vice President of Player Evaluation after serving the previous six years as the team’s Director of College Scouting. Ross is in charge of the Giants’ college scouting department and the team’s draft. He joined the organization on May 18, 2007 and ran his first organizational draft the next year.

Ross will also work on special projects with Director of Pro Personnel Ken Sternfeld.

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Old 10-01-2013, 11:05 PM    (permalink
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Austin, Barden, JJ, Clint S., Petrus, Greg Jones,Dillard, Beckum, Bomar, and Kehl.


That's a lot of swing and misses! That's 2008 on when Ross took over and had his first draft. He has since been promoted to Vice President of Player Evaluation.
Most of those guys are late round picks. No team hits on those with any frequency. If they did, they would be perennial Super Bowl teams. You can't have unrealistic expectations. Reese hits on high round guys. That is EXACTLY what you do to be a great team year in and year out. I think he made a mistake with Wilson though.

I honestly think we're overreacting A LOT. How many teams have had the run we've had? How many teams have been successful for 7+ years (almost unheard of in salary cap era)? How many have won two Superbowls in a five year period? Almost none. Who do you think of when it comes to that level of success? Pittsburgh? New England? Us? That's really as many as I can think of. Maybe the Ravens? They've had struggles too. Every team that has this sustained level of success is going to need a period to rebuild. The Patriots have been going about it for a long time. I honestly think they've hurt themselves by not blowing things up a little bit more. The get to the playoffs, sure, but they aren't doing much once they get there.

Same with us. We should have blown it up a little bit last year. But, when you're so good for so long and your owners, fans, and players all expect to do great sometimes you keep postponing that window of opportunity with a big FA or a luxury draft pick (Wilson). We should have started rebuilding this off-season a bit more. We we trying to get one last run out of the OLine and some defensive players and it backfired.

Those cornerstone guys are going to eventually get old and degrade. Our offensive line was GREAT for a long time. We took that for granted. Now we need to rebuild it.

It's very hard to just step back and just realize you need to rebuild/restructure. However, if you CAN do that, you can save yourself a lot of time. Now we're going to have to waste some of Eli's prime because of it. I think Reese realizes it now. I think he almost got into that AJ Smith mindset of "we're ******* awesome, we can take all these luxury picks and do whatever the hell we want." Hence I feel like Wilson was chosen because of that. Reese ALWAYS got great RBs later in the draft, a FA, or off a practice squad. He gambled on a game changer. Whether that pays off or not will remain to be seen. Even JPP was a gamble type pick too. Early in Reese's career he had a lot of standard, great, and reliable picks. Ross, Nicks, Phillips, etc. We've gotten away from that. I'm hoping he's realizing it now. It seems like he has to me. Pugh, Hankerson, etc. All those picks where we used to say, "Uh..hmm..well this seems like a boring pick," and they turned out to be great/impactful players.

Anyways, that's the end of my long, drawn out rant.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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2-5 rounds. That's where we need to make our money and we failed.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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That doesn't happen. You are not being realistic in any way. You make your money in the first two rounds. If you can hit their with consistency, you will have good times.

3-5 is essentially if you can luck out and get a big potential guy or get some good depth for your team.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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Just out of curiosity Forenci, who did you want over Wilson? I wasn't folowing the mocks that year for you guys to see what guys were being mocked to you in that range..Maybe Reese really had Doug Martin higher and he was forced into taking Wilson as a Plan B. Me personally, I think Coughlin is ruining him. I believe in his talent to be an elite back, he does need to work on blocking and fumbling, but Coughlin has taken ALL of his confidence away. He's running around holding the football squeezing the life out of it and worrying about holding onto the ball.


It isn't natural anymore, his instincts just can't come out and play because he's thinking too much and thinking he won't ever get in if he fumbles again. I mean, it's baffling to me. Sure a few years ago you could pull in Bradshaw but now I'd be riding him hard and telling him hold onto the football but don't worry about it, go out there and make plays.


The year Bradshaw had over 1200 rushing yards for you guys he led the league in turnovers for RB's, I don't get why the whole "The world is ending" with Wilson when he fumbles. I get that you can't do it, but I just think Coughlin has crushed all of his confidence. He's not even running the same now as he was to close out last year or even the pre-season.


Those last 4 games of the year for you guys he was just running the football instinctively, right now he's just pressing. I'm not worried at all, especially when you guys haven't really had a bunch of close games where you needed balance. I think he gets on track very soon, he's too explosive not too.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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I would honestly have to go back and look to see who I rated higher at that point in time. It's more of a philosophy difference, though. I don't rate RBs as important in the early rounds. Same for LBs too. I'd rather build a stud offensive line and let some FA RB or a late round RB dominate behind that.

Eh, I can see potential with Wilson but he's always been very inconsistent so far in his career. He'll look like a stud on one run and then run straight into a wall of offensive linemen the next four plays.

Honestly, I'm just not sure about Wilson as a person, either. He cannot take the criticism. Bradshaw could deal with Coughlin. Jacobs could deal with Coughlin. Tiki Barber (who Coughlin changed and fixed his fumbling) could deal with Coughlin. Wilson cannot take the criticism it seems like. He just mopes after he fumbles and gets yelled at. I mean, we've seen Bradshaw when he would fumble. He wouldn't get mopey. He would get pissed off and demand the ball.

I do agree Coughlin hasn't necessarily handled him right though, but Wilson needs to suck it up and take the criticism. Show some fire.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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Also Eugene Monroe was traded to the Ravens. Damn it. I wish we could have gotten in on a trade like that. Stick him at RT. Move Pugh inside. Offensive line problems drastically reduced.
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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That doesn't happen. You are not being realistic in any way. You make your money in the first two rounds. If you can hit their with consistency, you will have good times.

3-5 is essentially if you can luck out and get a big potential guy or get some good depth for your team.
Depth is what I'm talking about. We have guys playing now who are complete zeros. No depth at all.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:44 AM    (permalink
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Wilson's actually a really good runner. His fumbles against dallas and doghousings just distract people from what he's done. Plus our craptastic OL doesn't help. Wilson's just fine, still got stuff to work on but he's an excellent rusher.
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:16 AM    (permalink
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I think you're overstating him a bit. I think Wilson will be great, but to say he is right now I don't think is accurate.
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:44 AM    (permalink
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We haven't HIT any drafts in a while. Round 2-5 are absolutely where these guys make their money and we haven't done that in a while. It'd also be nice to land a stud from a draft and not so many average starters. Luckily Prince has started to blossom into a star
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:25 AM    (permalink
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Did Forenci just have an opinion that wasn't terrible? Am I in the twilight zone?
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:26 AM    (permalink
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Just out of curiosity Forenci, who did you want over Wilson? I wasn't folowing the mocks that year for you guys to see what guys were being mocked to you in that range..Maybe Reese really had Doug Martin higher and he was forced into taking Wilson as a Plan B. Me personally, I think Coughlin is ruining him. I believe in his talent to be an elite back, he does need to work on blocking and fumbling, but Coughlin has taken ALL of his confidence away. He's running around holding the football squeezing the life out of it and worrying about holding onto the ball.


It isn't natural anymore, his instincts just can't come out and play because he's thinking too much and thinking he won't ever get in if he fumbles again. I mean, it's baffling to me. Sure a few years ago you could pull in Bradshaw but now I'd be riding him hard and telling him hold onto the football but don't worry about it, go out there and make plays.


The year Bradshaw had over 1200 rushing yards for you guys he led the league in turnovers for RB's, I don't get why the whole "The world is ending" with Wilson when he fumbles. I get that you can't do it, but I just think Coughlin has crushed all of his confidence. He's not even running the same now as he was to close out last year or even the pre-season.


Those last 4 games of the year for you guys he was just running the football instinctively, right now he's just pressing. I'm not worried at all, especially when you guys haven't really had a bunch of close games where you needed balance. I think he gets on track very soon, he's too explosive not too.
I personally wanted Stephen Hill, then Cordy Glenn. Wilson was probably 4 or 5 on my list.

I actually had Randle rated higher than him, and wouldn't have minded if we took Randle in round 1. So to get him in round 2 was great in my eyes.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:35 AM    (permalink
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I think you guys are being unfair with the drafts.

You want 3 to 4 guys every year. We get that. We typically hit in the first 2 rounds, plus we squeeze in a 3rd guy either later in the draft or as a UDFA. Sometimes we hit 4.

In 2010 we got JPP, Joseph, Cruz. That's pretty good.

In 2011 we got Prince, JWIll and Ballard. 3 guys.

In 2012 we got Wilson, Randle, Hoseley (can be good if he stays healthy), and possibly Adrian Robinson (book is still out)

That's anywhere from 2 to 4 guys.

We're getting talented players. You have to be realistic in your expectations.

Look at our famed 2007 draft. We got Ross, Smith, Alford, Bradshaw, and Boss. That was 5 guys. But Only 1 is left on the team.

It's not easy keeping your guys, especially when you have the success we had. Think about how many guys we lost in FA bc we couldn't afford to keep them? Or injuries. Alford, KP, Smith, Jones, Goff, all gone bc of injuries, not bc of a lack of talent.

Reese is doing a good job, it's just impossible to stay good forever. It's unrealistic.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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It's not that we took Wilson, it's that we took a RB. I just really dislike 1st round RB's who aren't consensus top RB available.

Monroe would have been nice but moving Pugh inside seems like such a waste to me unless it were only for this year.
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