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Old 12-02-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
Big_Pete
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Here is a good article I found that I thought I would share with you guys in case you hadn't seen it. It pretty much sums up the Giants imho.

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I give the Giants’ coaching staff and players credit for not quitting despite the 0-6 start. They fought hard to get to 4-6 against some questionable competition to set up the most meaningful game of the season for them last Sunday against the Cowboys. But with everything on the line, the Giants came up short. There were swept by the Cowboys. We can only take away one thing from that fact: the Giants simply are not good enough.

Before we look at the problems, we need to compartmentalize the past. If the only highlights of the Tom Coughlin and Eli Manning era are the two Super Bowls, that era will be still considered a magnificent time in the team’s history. Two of the team’s eight NFL titles occurred on their watch. Years from now, fans will fondly remember the two unlikely and inspired playoff runs in 2007 and 2011. Nothing that happened before or since will ever erase that glory. Those teams did not win by accident or luck. They went 8-0 in the playoffs, defeated the NFC’s #1 and #2 seeds (twice) and the AFC’s #1 seed twice. Who will ever forget both NFC and NFL Championship Games?

But, the last thing team ownership and team management should do is delude themselves about the declining state of this team. And it is declining. The Giants have missed the playoffs four times in the last five seasons. The one exception was the 2011 team that just squeaked into the playoffs at 9-7. Since 2009, the Giants are 40-35 in the regular season despite playing in a terrible division in a watered-down NFL.

Who is to blame? Everyone. It’s not black-and-white issue. Jerry Reese and the front office have botched a number of drafts in a row and made a number of bad free agent and salary cap moves. The Giants are mediocre or subpar at just about every position, and particularly on the offensive line, at tight end, and linebacker. The running backs are ordinary at best. A lot has been invested on the defensive line and in the secondary, but due to age and injuries, production has not matched expectation. And most of the Giants’ impact players – Eli Manning, Jason Pierre-Paul, Hakeem Nicks – no longer play like impact players. The Giants have good defensive tackles, safeties, and Victor Cruz (and the latter helped to throw the away the Cowboy game). Eli Manning – who is taking up almost $21 million in cap space – is playing like a mediocre quarterback. He is not carrying the team like he did in 2011. Eli should be in his prime, but he has clearly gotten worse.

So you have an average talent base with an aging and injury-prone core, supposedly elite players who really are not, and only a trickle of new talent coming in. So why are we shocked?

I don’t think this is going to be a quick fix for the Giants and I think ownership and the front office will be terribly mistaken if they think it is. The Giants will only have six draft picks in the upcoming draft. You can only do so much in free agency. The team has to rebuild the offensive line, find a starting caliber tight end, probably replace Hakeem Nicks, figure out who their starting running back is, find another starting cornerback, address talent issues at linebacker, and figure out what they are going to do at defensive end. And on top of all of that, unless the figure out why Eli Manning has regressed since 2011, none of that may matter.

It’s easy and popular to blame the coaching staff – and they do deserve some of the blame – but fans need to realize that the lack of talent is the primary reason the team is struggling. You can’t really scheme around poor quarterback and offensive line play. There are not many coaches actively coaching in this game that have the skins on the wall that Tom Coughlin has. Sometimes we lose sight of that fact. As you look around at the other 32 teams and the coaching staffs on those teams, there really is not a lot to choose from. And roughly a third of them each year seem to be getting fired or on the verge of getting fired.

That said, there are legitimate questions surrounding the coaching staff. As BBI poster “blueblood” pointed out this week, have the message and messengers gotten stale? Tom Coughlin and Kevin Gilbride have choreographed some of the most explosive and productive offenses in New York Giants’ history, but red flags continue pop up: inability of quarterback and receivers to get on the same page, red zone issues, predictability, stubbornness, and unwavering loyalty to veteran players who might be better replaced. To be frank, almost all coaches in the NFL face similar allegations from media and fans. But there is curiosity about how Eli Manning would perform in a more quarterback- and receiver-friendly system, and one that uses slightly more imagination. As Joey in VA points out, the new Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) has dramatically cut back on practice time. Perhaps the Giants’ offense is too complicated in this new NFL environment. There is also concern that the Giants’ competition – particularly within the division – has figured out how to defend the Coughlin/Gilbride offense. Coughlin is 67; Gilbride is 62. With age comes wisdom. But a fresh approach can stimulate and excite. Keep in mind, however, there is no guarantee that change will automatically lead to improvement. We sometimes have to be careful what we wish for.

On the defensive side of the ball, Perry Fewell’s defense has actually improved this year after two extremely poor regular seasons in a row. But there were suggestions again from players that the improvement came when Fewell simplified the defense. If that’s true, why does he continue to complicate it each offseason, especially when the CBA has dramatically cut back on practice time? There is a feeling that the Giants’ defense never out-smarts or out-schemes opponents for the easy sack. In tight games, Fewell seems to play scared and get too conservative. That all said, there is no denying the fact that Fewell’s star has risen with fans once he was given better players (i.e., at defensive tackle, middle linebacker, and safety)…once again suggesting that good players make coaches look good.

On special teams, Tom Quinn’s unit has been a chaotic mess all season and arguably the league’s worst.

I think the Giants are at a crossroads. Eli Manning probably has another good 5-6 years left in this league. Is he capable of reverting back to 2011 form, or was that his career year? That’s key question #1. If the cap-killing quarterback can revert back to form, the Giants need to quickly rebuild around him through the draft and free agency. Is this the right coaching to do so? This is key question #2. Will Coughlin still want to coach in three years? And relatedly, if the Giants make coordinator changes, do you want the 67-year old Coughlin, who has an inconsistent track record of picking good coordinators, making those decisions?

The Giants are a conservative organization. My guess is they retain Manning and Coughlin. And Coughlin retains his coordinators unless the organization forces Tom’s hand like it did after the 2006 season when they “encouraged” him to let go of John Hufnagel and Tim Lewis. If Coughlin and the coaching staff are retained, then the onus is even great on Jerry Reese and his staff to hit a home run in the draft and free agency. If they don’t, then we’re going to continue to see 7-9, 8-8, and 9-7 football or worse as the talent base continues to erode.

The Coughlin-Manning Super Bowls were not that long ago. But it’s time to stop living off of those laurels. It’s a bad division in watered-down NFL. The competition is not as tough as some would lead you to believe. A truly well-run organization with a good quarterback should be a perennial contender in this environment.

from http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/20...cember-1-2013/
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Old 12-02-2013, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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I don't think that's an accurate article at all for one glaring reason:

When he states the problems with the Giants, while he's correct in pointing out our flaws, he's completing ignoring the fact that no team enters the season without any holes.

Having mediocre talent in most places is the NFL norm. How many players on the Pats are mediocre in their starting 22? They're the 2 seed in the AFC. The key is being talented in the right positions: Qb, DL, WR, DB.

In the past, we were talented in all 4 positions that mattered the most. Now we're old and those positions aren't talented anymore or lack talent. It's time to replenish it.

Not having great RBs is not an issue at all. The OL is obviously an issue, but we don't need an elite OL, we need a passable one. Right now it's well below average.

DL got old and injured fast. But a healthy JPP, if Moore develops and a good DE in the draft fixes that immediately. We have promise in the secondary, we're just missing a piece or 2.

WR needs a guy.

The sky isn't falling. Yes, in a perfect world we have a lot of holes to fill. And I readily acknowledge that we need to fill as many as possible. But it's not doom and gloom at all.

Show me a complete team in the NFL. Every team has holes all over the place. I think as fans our expectations of the roster are incredibly unrealistic.

Take Seattle. Arguably the most talented team in the league. They have mediocre pass rushers, mediocre weapons on offense, and an average offensive line. No TE.

On paper they have holes. But they're a great team. You're not gonna be loaded everywhere. That's just unrealistic.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:09 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I don't think that's an accurate article at all for one glaring reason:

When he states the problems with the Giants, while he's correct in pointing out our flaws, he's completing ignoring the fact that no team enters the season without any holes.

Having mediocre talent in most places is the NFL norm. How many players on the Pats are mediocre in their starting 22? They're the 2 seed in the AFC. The key is being talented in the right positions: Qb, DL, WR, DB.

In the past, we were talented in all 4 positions that mattered the most. Now we're old and those positions aren't talented anymore or lack talent. It's time to replenish it.

Not having great RBs is not an issue at all. The OL is obviously an issue, but we don't need an elite OL, we need a passable one. Right now it's well below average.

DL got old and injured fast. But a healthy JPP, if Moore develops and a good DE in the draft fixes that immediately. We have promise in the secondary, we're just missing a piece or 2.

WR needs a guy.

The sky isn't falling. Yes, in a perfect world we have a lot of holes to fill. And I readily acknowledge that we need to fill as many as possible. But it's not doom and gloom at all.

Show me a complete team in the NFL. Every team has holes all over the place. I think as fans our expectations of the roster are incredibly unrealistic.

Take Seattle. Arguably the most talented team in the league. They have mediocre pass rushers, mediocre weapons on offense, and an average offensive line. No TE.

On paper they have holes. But they're a great team. You're not gonna be loaded everywhere. That's just unrealistic.
Michael Bennett, Cris Clemons, Bruce Irvin, and Cliff Avril. That's mediocre? They have an embarassment of riches at pass rusher, actually.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Michael Bennett, Cris Clemons, Bruce Irvin, and Cliff Avril. That's mediocre? They have an embarassment of riches at pass rusher, actually.
None of those guys are anything more than mediocre. Having 5 mediocre pass rushers doesn't mean you have great pass rushers. It just means you have a bunch of mediocre ones. To me if you're a 8 sack a year guy, you're mediocre.

I want pass rushers who are the 15 a year type. They dictate protections.
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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None of those guys are anything more than mediocre. Having 5 mediocre pass rushers doesn't mean you have great pass rushers. It just means you have a bunch of mediocre ones. To me if you're a 8 sack a year guy, you're mediocre.

I want pass rushers who are the 15 a year type. They dictate protections.
Cliff Avril
2010: 8.5 sacks
2011: 11.0 sacks
2012: 9.5 sacks
2013: 7.5 sacks so far

Cris Clemons
2010: 11.0 sacks
2011: 11.0 sacks
2012: 11.5 sacks
2013: 3.5 sacks in limited action due to injury

Michael Bennett
2012: 9.0 sacks
2013: 6.5 sacks so far

Bruce Irvin
2012: 8.0 sacks (rookie)
2013: 3.0 sacks so far

Bennett hasn't done much consistently so far but has talent. Irvin is only in his second year but has talent.

Cris Clemons and Cliff Avril are consistent top-tier pass rushers. What more do you want out of a guy than consistent 9-11 sack years one after another?

Let's look at the stats of DEs on the Giants as a counterpoint:

Justin Tuck
2010: 11.5 sacks
2011: 5.0 sacks
2012: 4.0 sacks
2013: 6.5 sacks

Jason Pierre Paul
2010: 4.5 sacks
2011: 16.5 sacks
2012: 6.5 sacks
2013: 2.0 sacks so far

I don't know about you, but if you're talking sacks, it looks like most of the Seahawks pass rushers (with the exceptions of Irvin and Bennet who are younger and not as proven) are more consistently productive than either of the two best Giants pass rushers. Would you rather have one 16+ sack season and not much else or would you rather have 9-12 sacks every year?
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:59 PM    (permalink
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The giants pass rush has sucked this year, being more productive than us doesn't make your pass rush anything other mediocre. Clemens is a quality specialist but 11 sacks isn't anything earth shaking.
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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The giants pass rush has sucked this year, being more productive than us doesn't make your pass rush anything other mediocre. Clemens is a quality specialist but 11 sacks isn't anything earth shaking.
It's very hard to have an elite defense without at least a quality pass rush.

Clemons, and the rotatation with Bennet, Avril, and Irvin are cornerstones of the Seattle defense. It's what lets the CBs play press man coverage on the WRs - they know that they don't have to cover long and can get away with aggressive press coverage at the line.

I mean, to say that Clemons/Avril/Bennett/Irvin are mediocre is ridiculous. The Seattle pass rushers are far better than anything the Giants have, and probably better than what 80% of the rest of the NFL has.
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Old 12-05-2013, 05:19 AM    (permalink
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I know you're trying to rustle jimmies by keep referring to them being better than the giants pass rushers but that argument won't get you anywhere because the giants pass rushers have been straight garbage this year so that won't work even a little bit.

And trust me, if there's a fan base that knows what pass rushers do for a defense, it's us. So we don't exactly need that lecture. You've got a top secondary in the league. Coverage sacks are a factor as well. We won in the playoffs starting a Geoffrey pope at cb. And RW mc quarters at age a million, so trust me, we know
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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I'd love to see a 5 tech like Mo Wilkerson in that Seattle defense. Lord knows how unstoppable they'd be with that kind of player.

Red is basically a Noseguard playing base Elephant in their defense.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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I'd like to finally beat that doofus on Sunday.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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I honestly don't think we do.

You read the interviews this week? There's still animosity there. Eli is like meh, but they're all salty. Rightfully so though. Let's be real, Eli and the Manning Family did them dirty.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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That's great but they made the right decision and that was all Archie and not Eli.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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Yeah it was. He didn't want Eli and Peyton in the same conference. That's why I knew no NFC team had a chance in hell of signing Peyton last year, for the same reason.

Honestly it worked out for everyone. Eli would be successful anywhere he went, but Ben landed in the perfect situation in Pittsburgh, he wouldn't be as successful anywhere else and the NY media would eat him alive bc he's a gigantic douchebag. And Rivers landed in the perfect situation bc his noodle arm wouldn't work on the East Coast and he's also a gigantic douche who wouldn't survive the NY media.

All 3 qbs went exactly where they belonged.

SD fans have a right to be upset bc I'm sure some look at it like they'd have 2 SBs if they had Eli, but hey. That's life. Rivers had his chances. And AJ Smith's arrogance crippled that franchise for the last 4 years.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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The owner too. He's cheap as **** and wants to get that team out of San Diego or get a new stadium that he doesn't want to fund. When was the last time San Diego signed a free agent? Or re-signed a decent player of theirs outside of Rivers?

I don't think it had to do with them both being in the AFC. San Diego is a terrible franchise. Rivers miraculously keeps them somewhat relevant and competent.

That being said, I'm not comfortable. I'm starting Rivers in fantasy in a must win game for me cause I think he'll have a big day.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:13 AM    (permalink
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Do you blame the owner for wanting to move out of SD? Their fans are awful. Even when they were SB contenders their stadium was filled with the opposition's fanbase in the playoffs.

SoCal doesn't deserve a football team at all. They're such bandwagoners, don't get me started.

And honestly, you don't need to spend to be successful. Look at GB. When did they ever sign a FA?

I'm in the same boat as you. It's the first round of the playoffs and I have Rivers as my qb as well.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:19 AM    (permalink
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Giants are pitching their first shutout of the season.

I'm going against Jughead in fantasy and winner gets in the playoffs in our league.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:19 AM    (permalink
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GB is an exception. It leaves them very little room for mistakes. They're just run better than San Diego. It's hard to run at that level. Also they've had two exceptional QBs for the last 25 years. Rivers is great but he isn't that good. And if they didn't have Rodgers, which they don't now, they're extremely bad.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jomoz View Post
It's very hard to have an elite defense without at least a quality pass rush.

Clemons, and the rotatation with Bennet, Avril, and Irvin are cornerstones of the Seattle defense. It's what lets the CBs play press man coverage on the WRs - they know that they don't have to cover long and can get away with aggressive press coverage at the line.

I mean, to say that Clemons/Avril/Bennett/Irvin are mediocre is ridiculous. The Seattle pass rushers are far better than anything the Giants have, and probably better than what 80% of the rest of the NFL has.
Actually the reason their corners can play so aggressive is because Earl Thomas is so ridiculously awesome covering behind them, that lets them disrupt routes since even if they get beat, ET will clean it up. That's also why their pass rush has been as productive as it has been, they get a number of coverage sacks because the QB just has no where to go with the ball.

And again out producing the giants pass rush, doesn't make you no mediocre.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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Do you blame the owner for wanting to move out of SD? Their fans are awful. Even when they were SB contenders their stadium was filled with the opposition's fanbase in the playoffs.

SoCal doesn't deserve a football team at all. They're such bandwagoners, don't get me started.

And honestly, you don't need to spend to be successful. Look at GB. When did they ever sign a FA?

I'm in the same boat as you. It's the first round of the playoffs and I have Rivers as my qb as well.
To be fair if I lived in SD I wouldn't be going to too many games either, with weather and nature that beautiful I'd be hiking a lot of those weekends instead of sitting in a listless stadium.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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Giants are pitching their first shutout of the season.

I'm going against Jughead in fantasy and winner gets in the playoffs in our league.
You don't necessarily get in. You actually would likely not get in. You'd have to win, Dom lose, and score 55 more points than him. You are pretty much out no matter what. You would just be knocking me out.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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You don't necessarily get in. You actually would likely not get in. You'd have to win, Dom lose, and score 55 more points than him. You are pretty much out no matter what. You would just be knocking me out.
That's true but I'm putting up a monster day. MONSTER.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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Cliff Avril


I don't know about you, but if you're talking sacks, it looks like most of the Seahawks pass rushers (with the exceptions of Irvin and Bennet who are younger and not as proven) are more consistently productive than either of the two best Giants pass rushers. Would you rather have one 16+ sack season and not much else or would you rather have 9-12 sacks every year?
Well duh, our team stinks this year. That's not earth shattering insight. Our production everywhere is down. Our pass rushers are off this season, our offense is so bad that we had to cut the balls of it, and now dead in the water. Our OL can't pass block or run block which was the core of the problem. Our X is useless, along with our whole TE corps. Our Z makes good plays but then makes idiotic ones that result in INTs. Our first round RB is on IR, and we go through Cbs like a ***** goes through men.

So saying we are not productive is not revealing hidden information of any sort. We are what our record states. Reese and Ross need to get their heads out of their butts this off season. They have a lot of work ahead of them.
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Old 12-08-2013, 01:40 AM    (permalink
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I am thinking we should look at bringing in Gary Kubiak as an OC

Also we should look at moving to a zone blocking scheme
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:33 AM    (permalink
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Kubiak could be a solid OC choice. My only issue with him is his offense uses a lot of bootleg so your qb needs to have some mobility. I don't know if Eli is a great fit for that scheme.

I like Chan Gailey.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:35 AM    (permalink
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I'm more interested in Wade Phillips as a possible DC honestly.
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