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Old 02-21-2011, 08:06 AM    (permalink
J-Mike88
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88
Exactly.
And the Saints and Raiders would not have worked hard to keep those players around this long if they regretted taking the player, regardless of the spot they took him.

Let's not try and re-invent logic here.
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
yes, let me know when you actually have some vague clue what 'logic' is. or when you can actually defend the crap you just said.

unless, of course, you just finished digging yourself a hole and aren't man enough to climb back out of it.
You can fool some people here with your cryptic BS. But you don't fool everyone. Let me dumb it down for you:

Reggie Bush is clearly not a bust. Here are some things that prove he is not a bust:

#1- Many fans on every other NFL team would love to have him on their team.
#2- The Saints want to keep him, and he's entering his 5th year, and they could have parted ways with him by now if he was a bust.
#3- You want to know what a real bust is:
See: Charles Rogers, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Jamarcus Russell, Courtney Brown, Akili Smith, Tony Mandarich, Curtis Enis, Lawrence Phillips, Steve Emtman, Andre Ware.

Now, don't come back with more childish name-calling and insults. If you still can't see the difference between Reggie Bush's career and those guys in category #3, then nobody here can help you. Again, I think I made that simple and clear enough, there should be no argument here that Reggie Bush is not a bust, and he is who we thought he would be, as Scott said himself.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Scott Wright View Post
I don't count Reggie Bush as a bust either.
That's the bottom line right there.

/ReggieBush is a best talk. It's nonsense.

And Scott, you're not the only one who didn't have Cortland Finnegan rated as draft-worthy. No worries.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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Semantics.

Bush is a contributor and had better real value at the end of the first round.
However being selected #2, with comparisons to Barry Sanders/Gayle Sayers/Marshall Faulk, there's nothing else to call Reggie except a bust.

Being a bust doesn't mean you aren't an effective football player in spots throughout your career; Desmond Howard almost single handedly won a SB for GB as a returner and LB Aundray Bruce had a 9 year career despite never living up to his hype as the 1/1 in 1988 and the expectation he would be the next LT.

Reggie Bush in many ways reminds me a lot of Desmond Howard, electrifying college player without a position in the pros who's game doesn't translate well in the NFL.

You can't be called a genuine 'bust' IMO unless you were a top 20 pick, otherwise you were just a prospect who didn't pan out.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:56 AM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
That's the bottom line right there.

/ReggieBush is a best talk. It's nonsense.
Irony: Claiming that somebody is the infallible arbiter of truth as a means of argument in a thread devoted to pointing out that person's past errors.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RealityCheck View Post
Bulluck and Alexander yeah, but Janikowski is one of the greatest kickers of the decade and Pennington, well, was Pennington.
One of the greatest kickers of the decade?
2 seasons his field goal % was BELOW 70%!
5 total seasons his field goal % was BELOW 80%!
Just this past season he finished 23rd in field goal %.

2009 - 5th
2008 - 26th
2007 - 30th
2006 - 31st
2005 - 32nd
2004 - 4th
2003 - 6th
2002 - 15th
2001 - 10th
2000 - 27th

6 years he has finished in the bottom of the league in field goal percentage. I'm amazed he's still on the Raiders to be honest with those 3 straight years finishing as one of the worst kickers in the league.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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There needs to be some consensus on what 'bust' actually means. You can't just say that player B who was picked later is better so player A is a bust.

Maybe compare him to RBs historically taken in the top 5 in the last 20 years. How does he size up against them?

Bush is a unique talent and subjectively I think he is more of a mid round one talent to late mid round but I don't have any data to back that up.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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I'd classify Bush as a bust for where he was taken, but as a player he's been pretty solid production wise. Not worth his contract though, and where he was taken. At pick 2 for a RB, you want a 1800+ total rushing/receiving at minimum with 15+ rush/rec TD's IMO.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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I'll propose the following compromise:
If the Saints cut Reggie Bush this offseason, or pay him the egregious $12m salary he's due but cut bait after the 2011 season then he is a bust.

If the Saints extend Bush and Bush remains the same calibre of player he is now, then he is merely a disappointment.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jth1331 View Post
I'd classify Bush as a bust for where he was taken, but as a player he's been pretty solid production wise. Not worth his contract though, and where he was taken. At pick 2 for a RB, you want a 1800+ total rushing/receiving at minimum with 15+ rush/rec TD's IMO.
But do running backs picked that high typically produce like that? Its possible we are overrating how well a guy picked at that spot typically does. If Bush is just average for a guy that high, is he a bust? Its a tricky subject.

One thing I do hate is the 'if the saints could go back in time' argument. Sure, they might pick someone else. Bush gets picked at the top of the second, is motivated to make a big contract and absolutely kills it. There are way too many variables in these things and probably a lot of luck.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Right, this will be his 5th year.
They 100% want him back, as Green Bay wants AJ Hawk back 100% but he has a ridiculously high $ on the books for 011, but you're talking about silly cap #'s..... not busts. Who the hell wouldnt want a decent, role playing contributor at a reasonable price? thats what both those guys are. Just because the team wants them back doesnt mean theyve lived up to their billing. Theyre not 'out of the league' bad, but neither is great.

People love to throw the word "bust" around these days. Guys like Bush may not have lived up to some people's unrealistic expectations, but he's certainly no bust. He's exactly who Scott said he was and he's been good enough that the Saints definitely want to keep him.
Scott said he was the second coming of marshall faulk. Bush has not been even close to faulk. Faulk is a hof'er. bush is a poor runningback, a decent reciever (who drops a lot more balls than youre admitting), and a solid if inconsistent return man who's also very injury prone and has missed a lot of games. In what way has he lived up to his draft status?
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Scott said he was the second coming of marshall faulk. Bush has not been even close to faulk. Faulk is a hof'er. bush is a poor runningback, a decent reciever (who drops a lot more balls than youre admitting), and a solid if inconsistent return man who's also very injury prone and has missed a lot of games. In what way has he lived up to his draft status?
Scott said in this thread he is not a bust.

Reggie Bush has stuck with the Saints as long as Faulk did with the team that drafted him give-or-take. Same with Jerome Bettis and his draft team the Rams.

I have no loyalty to the Saints and don't like USC, but I can't understand why some people hate on Reggie Bush so badly... yet if they were honest with us, they'd admit they'd take them on their team in a heartbeat of the contract was right.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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If Reggie Bush was on the open market he'd have a line of teams waiting to sign him.
Fact. But the Bush-haters will conveniently ignore this.....
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Fact. But the Bush-haters will conveniently ignore this.....
Thats because it has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand. Bush's value on the open market is absolutely a non-factor here. The real question is how many teams would draft Reggie Bush #2 overall knowing that this is the type of player he'd turn into? The answer is 0.
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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I could still see him playing like Faulk, health permitting. You'll need a dominant O-line, or at least something like the 09 Saints, but he could get those big ypc numbers, and receiving isn't a problem, that's all about play calling.

Over the past few years, Reggie has looked like a different runner when healthy, not Barry Sanders or Jim Brown, but definitely high caliber, but DAMN he always breaks on punt returns(either TDs, or his legs!!) =/

I still think the difference between guys like Felix Jones/Reggie, and someone like Chris Johnson/Jamal Charles is the consistency and confidence they were able to build by being healthy enough to sustain high carries.

Reggie might need a change of scenery, and a year of good health, but he's still got a size/speed combo that is very very rare, and he's a very intelligent and hard working guy, it's hard to see him not having successful years when he's healthy, but it's hard to build a gameplan around someone that misses so many games.

I hope he does break out for us, but even when he's a role player, I'm still happy he is here.

The beginning of 08, the end of 09 and the post season, and training camp and preseason of '10, Reggie looks like a more powerful and decisive runner than 07 or so, but he seems like he's pressing because his plays are limited, and his injuries keep knocking him two steps back.


Like I said though, I'd love to have Ngata, but I definitely don't hate having Reggie, and he's saved us quite a few times, and won a share of games for us in his time here. He's a solid and dynamic player who is knocking on the door of a breakout, and he's a captain and team leader, so we ain't mad :)

I can see why people would write him off and say he's a bust, and i know people that aren't as close to the situation think I'm just being a homer, but I still see too many flashes of dominance here and there to overlook it.

But yea, like APS said, no one in there right mind takes him at 2, because you can take Ngata or Mario Williams given a redo.
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Bulluck and Alexander yeah, but Janikowski is one of the greatest kickers of the decade and Pennington, well, was Pennington.
Lol, wut.

Pennington is an outstanding QB, I'd draft him over Janikowski just to be a QB coach, lol.
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Old 02-21-2011, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Thats because it has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand. Bush's value on the open market is absolutely a non-factor here. The real question is how many teams would draft Reggie Bush #2 overall knowing that this is the type of player he'd turn into? The answer is 0.
While true, there are many recent #2 picks that you can say the same for. In fact, there have only been 3 #2 overall picks that lived up to their draft position in the last ten years or so - Suh, Calvin Johnson, and Julius Peppers. It's too harsh to say if the #2 overall doesn't develop into a franchise caliber player then he is a bust.
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Old 02-21-2011, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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but it's cool.
You're not even tearing my **** apart and this still gets under my skin. You're too good at what you do sir. lol
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Old 02-21-2011, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Scott said in this thread he is not a bust.
.....this is relevant how? And i didnt say he's a bust, just a dissappointment. hes not nearly the runner youd expect from a #2 pick running back. hes been outplayed by no name RB's on his own team.

Quote:
Reggie Bush has stuck with the Saints as long as Faulk did with the team that drafted him give-or-take. Same with Jerome Bettis and his draft team the Rams.
? what are you trying to say with this? that because he stuck with the team that long he must be good? or because faulk and reggie both stayed on their first teams for the same amount of time scott was right in saying they were the same?

Because i dont think scott was saying bush's career path would be the same as faulk, but that his talent and impact level would be. Which it has not, thus why he was wrong.

Quote:
I have no loyalty to the Saints and don't like USC, but I can't understand why some people hate on Reggie Bush so badly... yet if they were honest with us, they'd admit they'd take them on their team in a heartbeat if the contract was right.
and neither do i in any way. I dont hate bush at all. But you are overrating him.

Bolded: so if the price were right youd take him?
would the contract of a number two overall pick be worth it? because thats what everyone is arguing, that hes not worth that pick and therefore a dissappointment.

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Old 02-21-2011, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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Every team in the league of course would have room on their roster for Reggie Bush because of his versatility.

But NO team in the NFL would draft him again in the top 30. 70% of the time he was a decoy for the Saints, that was his primary impact for Payton's offense.

There are different levels of bust, IMO. There are the alltime busts like Jemarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf, and there are those guys drafted with the expectation they would be multiple pro bowl selections, when instead they are merely serviceable, sometimes effective NFL subs/starters.



Based on expectations, Lavar Arrington was a bust, but still a very good pro most of his career, ( but never better than Bulluck or Urlacher, the two LBs picked after him), and rarely the offensive destroying, weapon-of-mass-destruction he was touted to be.
His teammate, Courtney Brown, was an alltime bust, because of injuries.

That said, I still believe Bush could have his best football ahead of him and may experience a comeback late in his career.
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Old 02-21-2011, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
But NO team in the NFL would draft him again in the top 30.
I'm quite certain that a lot of teams would.

If you think that about 30% of 1st round picks give you absolutely nothing, Bush would be a very solid pick in the late 1st.
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Old 02-21-2011, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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The important thing is even if teams line up to sign Bush if he hits the open market, the only team who would pay him $12,000,000 for next year is the Saints.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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Right, so Bush doesn't deserve $12 mil, nobody would argue that outside of his agent and some family members.

But that doesn't make him a bust or even close to it.

And bearsfan 51 is right. If a Bear & Packer fan agree 100% on something unrelated to either club, you really should realize you're misremembering what Bush has done and meant to his club. It must be the name "" that just brings the hate from certain people.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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because that's certianly proof ******* positive. *eyeroll*

learn 2 facts.
the burden of proof is on the reader of the post njx... you of all people should know that.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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LOL@Reggie Bush not being a bust.


The same guy who has yet to reach 600 rushing yards in any season? The same guy who has proved injury prone the last 4 seasons and not durable enough to finish a season? The same guy who hasn't learned to run between the tackles yet? The same guy who has been consistently outplayed and outproduced by two UDFA's Pierre Thomas and Chris Ivory?



Nobody hates Reggie Bush, that's a lame excuse for people who can't come up with enough reasons for why he was worth the #2 overall pick in the draft. I keep hearing some of the same excuses as to why Marcus Spears was never a bust. Just because you stick with the team you drafted, and contributed, doesn't mean your not a bust. Paging Barbie Carpenter anyone?



Bush can't even avg 4 ypc, can you imagine if someone had told you this before he was drafted? The big play Reggie Bush who is compared to Marshall Faulk and Gale Sayers.


I guess I'm the only one who notices his sharp decline in production since he came into the league? You need to scheme to put him in the right place to be productive, he's not a focal point of the offense. Do you think anyone is taking him over Deangelo Williams?



Bush was a key cog in their SB run, he's certainly useful to the Saints and helps open things up for players, but it's laughable to me people think he's not a bust because the Saints still have use for him.



You would have to combine all of his totals for the last 3 seasons combined for him to be worth a damn. He's not supposed to be a small portion of the offense who has a few gadget plays, the #2 pick is supposed to carry an offense similiar to Chris Johnson or Adrian Peterson. Not sure why this is hard for some people to understand.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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Lol, wut.

Pennington is an outstanding QB, I'd draft him over Janikowski just to be a QB coach, lol.
Outstanding injuries you mean.
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