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Old 03-15-2013, 03:10 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by raphael View Post
Numbers don't lie. 2011 QB class had the most rookie starts and sophomore starts ever. Not something I'm pulling out of my butt.
That doesn't mean they are a great class! This is example A of how numbers CAN lie. It's hard for me to believe you are being serious. How many starts did Cade McNown, Akili Smith and Tim Couch start early on??

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Old 03-15-2013, 03:12 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
What a weird comment.
LOL, I feel uncomfortable after having read that. Am I in the middle of some sort of experiment?
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by batsandgats View Post
Ponder could be a dual threat if they ran the read option, he is almost 230 and ran a 4.6 at the combine. He was known for his mobility in college. He doesn't just scramble when his first read isn't open, thats lazy analysis. I just watched the game vs the 49ers, he stands in the pocket and doesn't worry about pressure coming to him unless he sees an open lane, otherwise he stands tall and tries to make a play, I saw a ton of dropped passes in that game. Most of his runs come out on play action rollouts, cutting the field in half and the guys on that side fail to get seperation, although he will try to thread the needle and its been hit or miss. He was standing in there trying to make plays with guys like Aldon and Justin Smith in his face. The mistake that really stood out that I saw were some overthrows on deep plays.

Colin ran a decent amount of read option against the Saints, I remember watching that game. Just because he doesn't run the ball doesn't mean they don't do read option, part of the option is reading the defense and deciding whether to hand it off or not. Just running it 5 to 10 times a game slows the defense down and he ran it close to 10. The Saints had the worst defense, I think in history, and he put up 231 yards 1 td and 1 int, he also had a rushing td on a read option play but his qb play did not look spectacular, against the worst defense, granted his was one of his first games starting.

THe read option play fake is an awesome tool for a QB who can run. Don't talk like it's illegitimate. For guys like RG3 and CK, the read option ball fake will always cause a defense to hesitate a step, just like a good play action fake when a team is running the ball effectively will open up deep routes against safeties cheating up to stop the run.
Same principle.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:18 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by pierce2walker View Post
Ahh the classic "claim whoever disagrees with you is butthurt" post. Please sir do explain to me how I am so "butthurt" here.
I never made that general claim, I sad YOU were butt hurt as evidenced by you taking criticism of a player personally. Your "stud" comment is the funniest item in the thread.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
THe read option play fake is an awesome tool for a QB who can run. Don't talk like it's illegitimate. For guys like RG3 and CK, the read option ball fake will always cause a defense to hesitate a step, just like a good play action fake when a team is running the ball effectively will open up deep routes against safeties cheating up to stop the run.
Same principle.
And to that I would add that Ponder is athletic- David Carr level athletic. But he's not athletic enough to run the read option. Christian "The Stud" Ponder needs to worry about Matt Castle.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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And to that I would add that Ponder is athletic- David Carr level athletic. But he's not athletic enough to run the read option. Christian "The Stud" Ponder needs to worry about Matt Castle.
You're underrating Ponder's level of athleticism. In his soph year before he got good, he was pretty much a WR playing QB. All he did was run. He ran for over about 150 yards against Miami, and another 60 or so against Maryland. He's more on the level of Aaron Rodgers in terms of athleticism, he can definitely hurt you with his feet.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
And to that I would add that Ponder is athletic- David Carr level athletic. But he's not athletic enough to run the read option. Christian "The Stud" Ponder needs to worry about Matt Castle.

Yeah, but the beauty of the read option in the NFL is the QB only has to bust a 20+ yard gainer once, and D-coordinators will be afraid of that run threat all season.

I like the way Kaepernick ran it better than RG3, because he only took off when the DE/OLB totally blew contain and he had yards of green to run downfield.
He didn't force it like Griffin did too often.


There are several mobile QBs in the NFL, but not all are run threats like Locker/Wilson/Griffin/CK/Vick.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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I never made that general claim, I sad YOU were butt hurt as evidenced by you taking criticism of a player personally. Your "stud" comment is the funniest item in the thread.
My exact words were, "Locker certainly isn't a stud, but he isn't a bust either". So I said he isn't great, but isn't a bust yet. A ridiculous claim I know. Please show me how that is the "funniest item in the thread".

While you're at it please show me where I took anything personally. My post wasn't even directed at you, but you took it as so.

I don't think I'm the butt hurt one here...
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:13 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by pierce2walker View Post
My exact words were, "Locker certainly isn't a stud, but he isn't a bust either". So I said he isn't great, but isn't a bust yet. A ridiculous claim I know. Please show me how that is the "funniest item in the thread".

While you're at it please show me where I took anything personally. My post wasn't even directed at you, but you took it as so.

I don't think I'm the butt hurt one here...
I'm not going to pull up parts of this ongoing conversation in ths thread, but you can scroll back if you wish. You definitely took things personally. Did you forgot chastising me because you thought my comments were meant for you and you only, even though it was said in general? Even though there are many others in this discussion?

Yeah, you WERE acting butt hurt. Do you remember saying things like "Don't flatter yourself.", "Stop acting like every post has to exactly address the point that you intended." and "I'm sorry Locker and Ponder took a collective piss in your cereal while holding hands."? Don't have and identity crisis now, this is where you wanted to take things, not me. Like I said, I'm good. I'm the guy who tried to tell everyone that Kaepernick could play and Locker and Ponder couldn't, Manuel was the second best pQB prospect this year, Smith was a top ten pick, etc., so feel pretty good right now.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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THe read option play fake is an awesome tool for a QB who can run. Don't talk like it's illegitimate. For guys like RG3 and CK, the read option ball fake will always cause a defense to hesitate a step, just like a good play action fake when a team is running the ball effectively will open up deep routes against safeties cheating up to stop the run.
Same principle.
did I ever say it was illegitimate? go back and read my posts..l said it was a good way to help young qbs transition to the league. The fact that Ponder and Locker aren't running them doesn't give them the advantage like other athletic qbs. Its more than a regular play action fake, the defense has one more thing to think about. Defenses said they would rather face Drew Brees than someone who runs read option, not because they are better than Brees, but because of so many things they have to worry about because of the read option. Why does Russel Wilson get to run read option plays when I don't recall him running them in college, yet a guy like Jake Locker did isn't allowed to? Yeah he is injury prone, but he is going to be injury prone regardless if he stays in the pocket or not, kind of like how Matt Stafford was.

Why isn't Ponder athletic enough? he ran a 4.6 which is plenty fast for a dual threat qb, one that is 230 pounds. He was known for mobility in college and has shown he can run in the NFL on broken down plays. I never saw happy feet from him, especially in the game I just watched against San Fransico, he stood tall in the pocket with guys all in his face trying to make throws. Now when he rolls out, that splits the field in half leaving less progressions for him to go through, so if those guys on the side of the field aren't open, then yes he is going to run.

It seems like some on here glorify the athleticism of some quarterbacks yet downplay the athleticism of others, I wonder why that is. His 3 cone time was identical to Kaepernick and his shuttle was identical to Wilson (while his 3 cone time was better than Wilson and his shuttle time was better than Kaepernick). His vertical was better than Kaepernick and identical to Wilson who weighs much less (more than 20 pounds) than him and their broad jumps were all around the same. The vertical and broad show initial burst which is the most important for a qb running the read option. His 10 yard dash was only .02 slower than Wilson and .05 faster than Kaepernick. The shuttle and 3 cone times are equally as important.

His 20 yard dash was .01 faster than BOTH of them.

Jake Locker has Kaepernick beat in every single category except broad where they are equal and his shuttle was .03 slower than Wilson and Ponder.

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Old 03-15-2013, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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I guess Ponder could run it, but he would actually have to keep the football a few times and pick up big chunks of yardage to have teams respect that play fake.

Ponder is mobile and can scramble, but I don't know if he's really a run threat.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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did I ever say it was illegitimate? go back and read my posts..l said it was a good way to help young qbs transition to the league. The fact that Ponder and Locker aren't running them doesn't give them the advantage like other athletic qbs. Its more than a regular play action fake, the defense has one more thing to think about. Defenses said they would rather face Drew Brees than someone who runs read option, not because they are better than Brees, but because of so many things they have to worry about because of the read option. Why does Russel Wilson get to run read option plays when I don't recall him running them in college, yet a guy like Jake Locker did isn't allowed to? Yeah he is injury prone, but he is going to be injury prone regardless if he stays in the pocket or not, kind of like how Matt Stafford was.

Why isn't Ponder athletic enough? he ran a 4.6 which is plenty fast for a dual threat qb, one that is 230 pounds. He was known for mobility in college and has shown he can run in the NFL on broken down plays. I never saw happy feet from him, especially in the game I just watched against San Fransico, he stood tall in the pocket with guys all in his face trying to make throws. Now when he rolls out, that splits the field in half leaving less progressions for him to go through, so if those guys on the side of the field aren't open, then yes he is going to run.
He is athletic, but please, he's not athletic enough to run the pistol, not to mention his low durability. You have to acknowledge this before you claim he didn't have the same advantage some of the other young top QBs had.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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read what I added to my post

It seems like some on here glorify the athleticism of some quarterbacks yet downplay the athleticism of others, I wonder why that is. His 3 cone time was identical to Kaepernick and his shuttle was identical to Wilson (while his 3 cone time was better than Wilson and his shuttle time was better than Kaepernick). His vertical was better than Kaepernick and identical to Wilson who weighs much less (more than 20 pounds) than him and their broad jumps were all around the same. The vertical and broad show initial burst which is the most important for a qb running the read option. His 10 yard dash was only .02 slower than Wilson and .05 faster than Kaepernick. The shuttle and 3 cone times are equally as important.

His 20 yard dash was .01 faster than BOTH of them.

Jake Locker has Kaepernick beat in every single category except broad where they are equal and his shuttle was .03 slower than Wilson and Ponder.

by that logic Cam Newton wouldn't be athletic enough to run the read option, don't act like the pistol is some hard thing to run, read option is read option, pistol is just a formation.

and just like I said with Locker, durability is going to be factor regardless if they run the option or not, look at Matt Stafford who stayed in the pocket, did he not have durability issues? Ponder has problems with his elbow, not his knees. Its not like Rg3 lasted an entire season. I see no problem with them running it 15 times a game, that doesn't mean the qb runs 15 to 20 times a game, just that they run the read option 15 to 20 times a game. Hell even 10 times would help them out.

so you are saying a guy who has almost identical 20 yard dash as to the guys who run the read option can't run it? thats ridiculous. You only want your qb picking up 20 yards anyway and avoiding hits. Its not like we don't have dozens of runningbacks who run slower than Ponder, Greene, BenJarvus Green Ellis, Alfred Morris the list goes on. A 4.6 is not slow, and its not like we don't have dozens of runningbacks with injury concerns that last a good while in the league. I am saying its something you run for a few years to ease them into the transition, it shouldn't be a career thing, not even for the most athletic qbs. I guess the rb in the pistol can run close to a 4.7 (alfred morris) but a 4.6 is too slow for the qb to be running it when Newton ran close to a 4.6, yeah that makes total sense.

Carr was close to a 4.7 at a pro day, not a combine and didn't crack 7 seconds in the 3 cone drill although he had a nice vertical but barely cracked 9' in the broad and had a 4.28 shuttle. Ponder is much more athletic than he is.

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Old 03-15-2013, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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read what I added to my post

It seems like some on here glorify the athleticism of some quarterbacks yet downplay the athleticism of others, I wonder why that is. His 3 cone time was identical to Kaepernick and his shuttle was identical to Wilson (while his 3 cone time was better than Wilson and his shuttle time was better than Kaepernick). His vertical was better than Kaepernick and identical to Wilson who weighs much less (more than 20 pounds) than him and their broad jumps were all around the same. The vertical and broad show initial burst which is the most important for a qb running the read option. His 10 yard dash was only .02 slower than Wilson and .05 faster than Kaepernick. The shuttle and 3 cone times are equally as important.

His 20 yard dash was .01 faster than BOTH of them.

Jake Locker has Kaepernick beat in every single category except broad where they are equal and his shuttle was .03 slower than Wilson and Ponder.

by that logic Cam Newton wouldn't be athletic enough to run the read option, don't act like the pistol is some hard thing to run, read option is read option, pistol is just a formation.

and just like I said with Locker, durability is going to be factor regardless if they run the option or not, look at Matt Stafford who stayed in the pocket, did he not have durability issues? Ponder has problems with his elbow, not his knees. Its not like Rg3 lasted an entire season. I see no problem with them running it 15 times a game, that doesn't mean the qb runs 15 to 20 times a game, just that they run the read option 15 to 20 times a game. Hell even 10 times would help them out.

so you are saying a guy who has almost identical 20 yard dash as to the guys who run the read option can't run it? thats ridiculous. You only want your qb picking up 20 yards anyway and avoiding hits. Its not like we don't have dozens of runningbacks who run slower than Ponder, Greene, BenJarvus Green Ellis, Alfred Morris the list goes on. A 4.6 is not slow, and its not like we don't have dozens of runningbacks with injury concerns that last a good while in the league. I am saying its something you run for a few years to ease them into the transition, it shouldn't be a career thing, not even for the most athletic qbs.
They are not athletic enough to run the read option. I know you don't want to believe it, but it's true. Talk to me when the prove it.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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I guess Ponder could run it, but he would actually have to keep the football a few times and pick up big chunks of yardage to have teams respect that play fake.

Ponder is mobile and can scramble, but I don't know if he's really a run threat.
Ponder has a freaking arm injury from a hit. He will not last a second as a read option QB. He can be effective scrambling every now and then, but he is not a ball carrier. I'd say Locker is a little better than him in this area, but he is not a true read option QB either.

What this guy doesn't know or want to accept is that there is different between a good athlete and true ball carrier. Cam Newton ran a 4.58 which isn't blazing, but he is easily twice if not three times the runner that Ponder or Locker is.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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yeah you never gave any reasons why they aren't athletic enough....maybe the first part of your user name is what they need to be considered athletic enough because thats all the players you hype as having the "athleticism"

quarterbacks are going to get hit regardless if they run the read option or not, whats better, getting hit from the blindside in a throwing motion or running forward where you have control of where you go an when you can slide? hmmm... Gee I wonder. Lets just keep getting him hit in the pocket. The best thing to stop pressure from the defense is to have your qb run, but lets just get him hit every snap while in the pocket like its any different

Locker was a much more electrifying runner than Cam Newton in college and he didn't have the genius Gus Malazahn running the offense perfectly, stuck on some crappy college team running a rinky dink version of the spread option.

Yeah a true ball carrier has to have certain credentials, like your user name. Only those guys can run the ball I suppose, right? even though the other guys showed they can run it college, with the ball in their hand, as ball carriers, yeah that makes perfect sense. Athletes who run the ball don't = ball carriers unless they meet your user name credential, because those are the "Real athletes who are meant to carry the ball", right?

I guess Tebow couldn't run the ball either, except that he proved it in the NFL as well as college. Not saying that he is a great qb, but he is a proven "ball carrier"

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Old 03-15-2013, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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yeah you never gave any reasons why they aren't athletic enough....maybe the first part of your user name is what they need to be considered athletic enough because thats all the players you hype as having the "athleticism"

quarterbacks are going to get hit regardless if they run the read option or not, whats better, getting hit from the blindside in a throwing motion or running forward where you have control of where you go an when you can slide? hmmm... Gee I wonder. Lets just keep getting him hit in the pocket. The best thing to stop pressure from the defense is to have your qb run, but lets just get him hit every snap while in the pocket like its any different
Dude, please don't try to bait me. You are looking for an excuse to call me a racist and I saw it coming a mile away. What I can tell you is that there are different types of athleticism and those guys don't have what it takes to run the read option. If you want reason, I can't help you because I am not the almighty creator. I know that they aren't elusive enough or physically tough enough to get up and do it over and over again. Just like some people may test well, but couldn't play a lick of CB. Or tomahawk dunk. Now you can write an angry thesis, make a bunch of spread sheets or reference my handle in an underhanded manner, but you can't change reality. Those two guys are athletic to and extend, but they can't do what Newton, RG3, Kaepernick or Wilson can do.

Oh, and for the record, I think Doug Flutie and Johnnie Football probably could, so do whatever it is you do with that.

PS: Who told you about "gats?"

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Old 03-15-2013, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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You don't know if they can run it or not because you haven't seen them run it. Alfred Morris who runs close to a 4.7 can be a proven ball carrier yet Ponder can't? Shonn Greene is a proven ball carrier yet he has had no runs over 40 yards in his career and maybe 2 or 3 that went for a little over 30? Yeah your logic really makes sense

You knew that statement was coming because you know what your agenda is, why else would you be expecting it? Thats proof right there.

They don't just test well, they did it in college, Ponder ran quite well his sophomore year and Locker ran well throughout his career on the read option, and they tested out with the measurables, but yet that still isn't enough to convince that they can be proven ball carriers? If Russel Wilson never got to run the read option, how would we know he could handle it? he is like 5'11 205 pounds and didn't do it in college. Yet somehow he has the athleticism to do it, yeah keep up with your racist thinking. They can be elusive enough to move around the pocket and run with it when nothing is open. Play through injuries (Locker played through quite a bit in college an still did well) but I guess they still aren't elusive or tough. Yeah, that sure makes a whole lot of sense. Just ignore the whole point about getting hit in the pocket continuously, yeah because that doesn't suit your argument.

Yeah because Manziel is a freak of nature and better than all of these guys combined when it comes to running the ball, but I am sure people will find negatives about him as his career in college goes along, after he won the Heisman they were already saying why he wouldn't translate into an NFL qb. Mentioning those two names is the equivalent of a white racist saying "but ive got black friends".

btw, you don't "know" anything, it called an opinion.

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Old 03-15-2013, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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You don't know if they can run it or not because you haven't seen them run it. Alfred Morris who runs close to a 4.7 can be a proven ball carrier yet Ponder can't? Shonn Greene is a proven ball carrier yet he has had no runs over 40 yards in his career and maybe 2 or 3 that went for a little over 30? Yeah your logic really makes sense

You knew that statement was coming because you know what your agenda is, why else would you be expecting it? Thats proof right there.

They don't just test well, they did it in college, Ponder ran quite well his sophomore year and Locker ran well throughout his career on the read option, and they tested out with the measurables, but yet that still isn't enough to convince that they can be proven ball carriers? If Russel Wilson never got to run the read option, how would we know he could handle it? he is like 5'11 205 pounds and didn't do it in college. Yet somehow he has the athleticism to do it, yeah keep up with your racist thinking. They can be elusive enough to move around the pocket and run with it when nothing is open. Play through injuries (Locker played through quite a bit in college an still did well) but I guess they still aren't elusive or tough. Yeah, that sure makes a whole lot of sense. Just ignore the whole point about getting hit in the pocket continuously, yeah because that doesn't suit your argument.

Yeah because Manziel is a freak of nature and better than all of these guys combined when it comes to running the ball, but I am sure people will find negatives about him as his career in college goes along, after he won the Heisman they were already saying why he wouldn't translate into an NFL qb.

btw, you don't "know" anything, it called an opinion.
Yeah, I do know they can't run it. I also know what running backs, corner backs and deep threat WRs look like. So yeah, I know they can't run it. And I also knew Russell Wilson could run it. Was I right?

Immediately you delve back in to what you are comfortable with, 40 times. It's pitiful to watch. Call me a racist all you want if it makes you feel better, but the reality doesn't adjust to your wishes. Everyone else knows what you don't want to admit. I can't even get myself up to get mad at you at this point because a) I am too busy feeling sorry for you and b) you'll probably mature out of this one day.

Hey, since you are a number cruncher, just ask yourself one simple question: How is it that basketball, skill and speed positions in football and outfield positions in baseball all dominated by one demographic when that same demographic is only about 12% of the US population?

PS: I guess we agree, Johnnie Football is a real freak of nature.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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racial stereotyping that starts before high school, go read Tony Dungy's opinion on it. Why do guys like Eric Weddle get converted safety? I guess he doesn't have that magical "hip swivel" despite shutting down Calvin Johnson in a bowl game.

I am not just basing my opinions just on numbers, I am basing them on what I see as well. You are basing them on things you can't measure. and vague opinions about what you see.

Ever notice that white players who play at majority black positions are usually on the elite level? like JJ Watt, Jared Allen, Justin Smith, Clay Matthews etc, or at least above average like Eric Weddle (Harrison Smith is looking like he will be elite, close to it in his first season playing). You won't find any guys playing average to below average at those positions for very long when the league is full of below average guys who bounce around and still manage to get starting time because of their unlimited "upside" that may take 6 years to reach, like a Thomas Jones, not fast, no wiggle, average power only got what the blocking gave him and nothing more, yet he is one of the 30 guys to have 10k rushing, and he didn't rush for 1k until his 6th year in the league, meanwhile Brian Leonard is written off as a starting tailback after a handful of games when 4 of the starting linemen were injured, despite showing flashes, oh yeah the starting qb was out for a while during that period as well and averaged the same ypc Steven Jackson did with those linemen out. Now he is stuck in a 3rd down/fullback role. Why do guys like Brock Forsey get benched after rushing for 100 yards in a game and don't get a shot. Why don't guys get chances to play tailback at the NFL like Jacob Hester, despite running a 4.6 and rushing for 1k in the sec, and looking damn good doing it, putting the team on his back. Why do people say Rex Burkhead must be a fullback when he is 210? Why didn't any NFL team want Jesse Lumsden who ran a 4.4 at like 220 pounds? and tore it up when he played in an all star game. Its all about opportunities. How many crappy corners are out there? plenty, yet I am supposed to believe not one white guy can play corner when I see Jason David get burnt every single game for several years? Please. Guys drafted in the first round at corner not even in the league after 3 years. Every year defensive linemen bust but are never talked about, its always "ryan leaf" or "mike mamula" (whose career wasn't actually that bad when you compare him to other first round picks).

Why is Chase Reynolds stuck on the practice squad when he was a dominant runningback at Montana, better than Lex Hilliard, yet Lex Hilliard has gotten more opportunities than Reynolds has, and they went to the same damn school, but Reynolds was better, and the only reason he even got a shot is because Jeff Fisher's son played with him and is now on the coaching staff, the same reason Mariani got a shot, and surprise, he did well as a return man. If didn't know those guys they wouldn't even be in the league.

Its because coaches put their asses on the line if they put a guy that sticks out there, so he better be pretty damn good because if not everyone will be calling for his head. How many white receivers were starting last year? about the same amount that had 1k seasons. Where are all the marginal players? Yeah there is Kevin Walter who had a primarily blocking role but thats about it. They might get to start for a few years but solid won't cut it, like a Scott Shanle, whenever the defense played horrible he was blamed, even though Jonathan Vilma came out and said he wouldn't be making all the plays he does if it weren't for Shanle. Shanle doens't start in 2012 and the Saints have the worst defense in history, no one single player got blamed. Why is Roman Harper playing when he can't cover worth a damn? he got chased down by Sam Bradford of all people, a 5 second guy. Why didn't anyone want Wes Welker? he was only offered a scholarship because a top recruit pulled out at the last second. If the kicker had kicked any further he wouldn't have had a chance to return it for a td, would have never gotten to lead Miami in receiving and would have never been traded to the Patriots. Chargers didn't want him because "they already had a guy like him in Tim Dwight", Nick Saban wanted to cut him in favor of Marcus Vick. Despite playing 60 percent of the snaps he led Miami in receiving in 2006, oh yeah, and the only other player to have more all purpose yards in his first 3 years was Gale Sayers.

How come a guy who never played football can come in and do so well like Margus Hunt?

You can sit there and live in fantasy land like there is some superiority but there isn't. NFL is only an American sport and rarely do guys from other countries come and play. A guy like Kevin Love can be hated on despite putting up record setting numbers "oh because the team was garbage", its all excuses as to why these guys do so well. There have been a ton of excuses made for Welker as well. Yeah more blacks have broken the 10 second barrier, but only like 30 have broken it in the past decade or so. Thats out of the entire world. LeMaitre, a white man broke it. In high school I see track stars switched to the 400 and 800 meters no matter how good they are at 100 meters. Jordy Nelson ran a 10.6, the same as Devin Hester, and many of whites have run from 10.3 to 10.8, and running in a straight line for 100 meters isn't what makes a great football player. Brian Hartline was a track star as well. Jake Sharp who had tremendous potential at runningback ran a 10.4, these are all high school times.

why are there so many terrible cornerbacks when teams limit themselves to 12 percent of the population? Last year more cornerbacks ran 4.66 or slower than ones that ran 4.5 or faster. Gee, what do they have? I guess its those magical qualities that you can't quantify.

Its the stereotypical thinking of people like you who keep them out, mainly rivals and scout, because they rank like a handful of whites in their top 100. Coaches get benefits from recruiting guys with stars behind their names. Go look up Knile Knapp, led Georgia in rushing, where is he now? working at Chik fil a because they wanted him to walk on and he didn't have the money. Notice how many successful white college players are walk on? not every white kid can afford that. Whites can lead their states in rushing, have great measurables and not get any offers (the other year 26 state leading rushers were white). Why was Gerhart only viewed as a fullback or linebacker by every program at Stanford, and even then they had their doubts, this is after breaking the all time cali rushing record, and being 3rd best in the history of high school, which a hand time of 4.48, which matches up with his electronic time of 4.53.

David Seeman was the starting tailback at John Curtis, not Joe McKnight who was a jack of all trades. McKnight got SHUT DOWN in the state championship, David Seeman was the mvp, he rushed for well over 1k that season, 10 ypc, had the size, ran a 4.5, McKnight is recruited by tons of top programs, Seeman offers by no one.

Why did Swope have to switch to slot receiver? because it seems like that has become a position appropriate for whites now, yet he dominated in high school at tailback and has the size and measurables to back it up and no problems like Christine Michael, btw Welker was also a runningback in high school.

Despite showing they can run with the ball in college, and having the measurables to back it up, I am supposed to believe these guys aren't capable of it in the NFL? why doesn't Tannehill get to run the read option, he played wide receiver for christ sake, I know he has the athletic ability to do it. Its the same stereotypical bs over and over, whites = pocket passers, blacks = dual threats and no one wants to go against the stereotypical thinking.

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Old 03-15-2013, 09:30 PM    (permalink
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racial stereotyping that starts before high school, go read Tony Dungy's opinion on it. Why do guys like Eric Weddle get converted safety? I guess he doesn't have that magical "hip swivel" despite shutting down Calvin Johnson in a bowl game.

I am not just basing my opinions just on numbers, I am basing them on what I see as well. You are basing them on things you can't measure.

Ever notice that white players who play at majority black positions are usually on the elite level? like JJ Watt, Jared Allen, Justin Smith, Clay Matthews etc, or at least above average like Eric Weddle. You won't find any guys playing average to below average at those positions when the league is full of below average guys who bounce around and still manage to get starting time because of their unlimited "upside" that may take 6 years to reach, like a Thomas Jones, not fast, no wiggle, average power only got what the blocking gave him and nothing more, yet he is one of the 30 guys to have 10k rushing, and he didn't rush for 1k until his 6th year in the league, meanwhile Brian Leonard is written off as a starting tailback after a handful of games when 4 of the starting linemen were injured, despite showing flashes, oh yeah the starting qb was out for a while during that period as well and averaged the same ypc Steven Jackson did with those linemen out. Now he is stuck in a 3rd down/fullback role. Why do guys like Brock Forsey get benched after rushing for 100 yards in a game and don't get a shot. Why don't guys get chances to play tailback at the NFL like Jacob Hester, despite running a 4.6 and rushing for 1k in the sec, and looking damn good doing it, putting the team on his back. Why do people say Rex Burkhead must be a fullback when he is 210? Why didn't any NFL team want Jesse Lumsden who ran a 4.4 at like 220 pounds? and tore it up when he played in an all star game. Its all about opportunities. How many crappy corners are out there? plenty, yet I am supposed to believe not one white guy can play corner when I see Jason David get burnt every single game for several years? Please. Guys drafted in the first round at corner not even in the league after 3 years. Every year defensive linemen bust but are never talked about, its always "ryan leaf" or "mike mamula" (whose career wasn't actually that bad when you compare him to other first round picks).

Its because coaches put their asses on the line if they put a guy that sticks out there, so he better be pretty damn good because if not everyone will be calling for his head. How many white receivers were starting last year? about the same amount that had 1k seasons. Where are all the marginal players? Yeah there is Kevin Walter who had a primarily blocking role but thats about it. They might get to start for a few years but solid won't cut it, like a Scott Shanle, whenever the defense played horrible he was blamed, even though Jonathan Vilma came out and said he wouldn't be making all the plays he does if it weren't for Shanle. Shanle doens't start in 2012 and the Saints have the worst defense in history, no one single player got blamed. Why didn't anyone want Wes Welker? he was only offered a scholarship because a top recruit pulled out at the last second. If the kicker had kicked any further he wouldn't have had a chance to return it for a td, would have never gotten to lead Miami in receiving and would have never been traded to the Patriots. Chargers didn't want him because "they already had a guy like him in Tim Dwight", Nick Saban wanted to cut him in favor of Marcus Vick. Despite playing 60 percent of the snaps he led Miami in receiving in 2006, oh yeah, and the only other player to have more all purpose yards in his first 3 years was Gale Sayers.

How come a guy who never played football can come in and do so well like Margus Hunt?

You can sit there and live in fantasy land like there is some superiority but there isn't. NFL is only an American sport and rarely do guys from other countries come and play. A guy like Kevin Love can be hated on despite putting up record setting numbers "oh because the team was garbage", its all excuses as to why these guys do so well. There have been a ton of excuses made for Welker as well. Yeah more blacks have broken the 10 second barrier, but only like 30 have broken it in the past decade or so. Thats out of the entire world. LeMaitre, a white man broke it. In high school I see track stars switched to the 400 and 800 meters no matter how good they are at 100 meters. Jordy Nelson ran a 10.6, the same as Devin Hester, and many of whites have run from 10.3 to 10.8, and running in a straight line for 100 meters isn't what makes a great football player. Brian Hartline was a track star as well. Jake Sharp who had tremendous potential at runningback ran a 10.4, these are all high school times.

why are there so many terrible cornerbacks when teams limit themselves to 12 percent of the population?

Its the stereotypical thinking of people like you who keep them out, mainly rivals and scout, because they rank like a handful of whites in their top 100. Whites can lead their states in rushing, have great measurables and not get any offers (the other year 26 state leading rushers were white). Why was Gerhart only viewed as a fullback or linebacker by every program at Stanford, and even then they had their doubts, this is after breaking the all time cali rushing record, and being 3rd best in the history of high school, which a hand time of 4.48, which matches up with his electronic time of 4.53
Yeah, it's a real shame you believe you are so smart but in reality, you are completely lost and you don't even realize. I am not even talking about foolish incorrect claims like Gerhart was viewed as a fullback when he was picked in the second round or that Kevin Love, who is a great basketball player but not a great athlete has anything to do with this discussion. But the idea that somehow the lack whites at certain positions such as cornerback is due to them not being able to play the position, oh no no no. It's because the NFL in which the vast majority of owners, front office administrators and head coaches are white, are committing white on white discrimination for god knows what reason. If that is your world view, then bless you and have a nice day. I'm sure you have a some sort of data which supports Warren Moon not being drafted as well.

I'll end this by saying Jason Sehorn was an average to slightly above average CB with excellent size. That's it for my lifetime. Now crunch those numbers.

PS: Rex Burkhead is a nice college running back. He won't be crap in the NFL.

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Old 03-15-2013, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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David Seeman was the starting tailback at John Curtis, not Joe McKnight who was a jack of all trades. McKnight got SHUT DOWN in the state championship, David Seeman was the mvp, he rushed for well over 1k that season, 10 ypc, had the size, ran a 4.5, McKnight is recruited by tons of top programs, Seeman offers by no one.

Why did Swope have to switch to slot receiver? because it seems like that has become a position appropriate for whites now, yet he dominated in high school at tailback and has the size and measurables to back it up and no problems like Christine Michael, btw Welker was also a runningback in high school.

Despite showing they can run with the ball in college, and having the measurables to back it up, I am supposed to believe these guys aren't capable of it in the NFL? why doesn't Tannehill get to run the read option, he played wide receiver for christ sake, I know he has the athletic ability to do it. Its the same stereotypical bs over and over, whites = pocket passers, blacks = dual threats and no one wants to go against the stereotypical thinking.

yes Warren Moon fits the bill because he was a pocket passer. There is no rule that states whites can't discriminate against whites or have prejudice towards whites, and btw about half of the guys running things are Jews, not white.

Yes blacks have done such a tremendous job at playing corner that is routine for a qb to throw for 4k a season.

It starts with scout and rivals, but goes back to the high school level, guys are weeded out before they even have a chance to prove themselves. Thats why a fullback like Zach Zwinak can come in and put up 1k in the big 10 without even getting carries the 1st 3 games, then the white kid from Iowa had to wait for like 6 injuries and had the best 3 game stretch in Iowa football. It took 6 runningbacks for Peyton Hillis to get a chance and he did very well, next year didn't even see the field, replaced by a slower, smaller Moreno, yeah he made some bonehead mistakes and is plagued by hamstring injuries (probably because his dumbass insists on pulling trucks in the offseason which tightens them up), but he proved that he can be a starting NFL back.

and how exactly is Kevin Love not a great athlete, I guess he gets it all done with that high motor and hustle, right? despite having similar measurables to Blake Griffin
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Originally Posted by batsandgats View Post
David Seeman was the starting tailback at John Curtis, not Joe McKnight who was a jack of all trades. McKnight got SHUT DOWN in the state championship, David Seeman was the mvp, he rushed for well over 1k that season, 10 ypc, had the size, ran a 4.5, McKnight is recruited by tons of top programs, Seeman offers by no one.

Why did Swope have to switch to slot receiver? because it seems like that has become a position appropriate for whites now, yet he dominated in high school at tailback and has the size and measurables to back it up and no problems like Christine Michael, btw Welker was also a runningback in high school.

Despite showing they can run with the ball in college, and having the measurables to back it up, I am supposed to believe these guys aren't capable of it in the NFL? why doesn't Tannehill get to run the read option, he played wide receiver for christ sake, I know he has the athletic ability to do it. Its the same stereotypical bs over and over, whites = pocket passers, blacks = dual threats and no one wants to go against the stereotypical thinking.

yes Warren Moon fits the bill because he was a pocket passer. There is no rule that states whites can't discriminate against whites or have prejudice towards whites, and btw about half of the guys running things are Jews, not white.

Yes blacks have done such a tremendous job at playing corner that is routine for a qb to throw for 4k a season.

It starts with scout and rivals, but goes back to the high school level, guys are weeded out before they even have a chance to prove themselves. Thats why a fullback like Zach Zwinak can come in and put up 1k in the big 10 without even getting carries the 1st 3 games, then the white kid from Iowa had to wait for like 6 injuries and had the best 3 game stretch in Iowa football. It took 6 runningbacks for Peyton Hillis to get a chance and he did very well, next year didn't even see the field, replaced by a slower, smaller Moreno, yeah he made some bonehead mistakes and is plagued by hamstring injuries (probably because his dumbass insists on pulling trucks in the offseason which tightens them up), but he proved that he can be a starting NFL back.

and how exactly is Kevin Love not a great athlete, I guess he gets it all done with that high motor and hustle, right? despite having similar measurables to Blake Griffin
All these random examples are supposed to prove what, that there is white on white discrimination? Ah, no. You are asking me to believe the utterly ridiculous. If there was a way for a white person to help another white person to get ahead, it would happen just like it happens in other arenas. Are you familiar with the history of the country or not?

Again, I could go through every one of your "examples" and tell you why they aren't example of anything but your own wishful thinking, but I'll pick one for argument sake. Peyton Hillis from a skill standpoint is a very good power runner. Unfortunately, this isn't the 80's and power runners aren't the trend in a pass first league. But the reason Hillis isn't an established starter has nothing to do with stereotyping whatsoever. He isn't a starter because a) he is injury prone, b) most teams nowadays aren't interested in power running offenses, c) he is known to be big prick and d) he is not a three down back. Now, despite all that, it just so happens that this supposed victim of white on white discrimination happened to be selected for the cover of Madden based on one productive year. In your example, I guess you failed to realize that he BENEFITED from being a white running back! If Ron Dane had the exact same production, it would not have crossed anyone's mind to put him on the cover of freaking Madden. Dude, cry me a river.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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fans voted him on the cover, not the NFL, so that doesn't prove jack. Yeah teams don't want power runners, thats why we have guys like Trent Richardson, Shonn Greene (who just got a new deal with another team), Eddie Lacy is supposed to a be a featured back as well. Hillis is not just a powerback, he has moves as well, and there are plenty of backs like that. He can catch well out of the backfield, he had 60+ catches his season starting, and he had a 100 yard game receiving with the Broncos....so yeah that doesn't fit this passing league? sure....you made an excellent point.

Yea I can't think of any other injury prone backs that get chance after chance, like a Ryan Matthews or a Darren McFadden. Teams still use power runners and one that can catch well is not common, Shonn Greene can't even catch, slower than Hillis as well, yet the Titans plan on him splitting carries with Johnson, him being the thunder.. Hillis had his main injury problems one season, thats it. Was it a passing league when Brandon Jacobs got his chance? yep, was he prone to injury? yep. There are dozens of examples of injury prone backs getting chance after chance. Its not like its his knees, he has a nagging hamstring issue that can easily be corrected. Hillis still has plenty of tread left being that he wasn't a featured back in college (although he played fb, wr, te, return man) and only one season of starting in the NFL. The injury with the Broncos was a fluke, dude landed on his head. Teams are still looking at Beanie Wells despite his injury problems and lack of production, with only 1 good year out of 4, and unlike Hillis, he was given opportunity after opportunity.

Not a 3 down back, except that he is a great pass blocker and can catch extremely well, yeah that makes total sense....

The media in the Cleveland area blew up a few incidents, he got bad advice from his agent and sat out a game and failed to show up at a kid's event, which was his agent's fault, yeah that makes him a big prick somehow, yet he has had no character concerns with the Chiefs or the Broncos. The Browns didn't want him as their back, the new regime wanted their guy and the guy couldn't fart in public without the papers writing about it. Like he is the only player that messed up things due to contract disputes. Please..... Richardson comes in and averages the same ypc as Hillis when he was having nagging injuries (3.6) yet is considered a stud. If he were not white he wouldn't be hated on this much, and apparently putting up 100 yards towards the final of the season despite Charles getting the bulk of the carries means nothing? The Browns with the new staff wanted Montario Hardesty to be the feature back but he kept injuring his knees, yet they still wanted him and he was garbage when he was finally healthy, so they drafted Richardson, and why is it that despite having similar production (actually Hillis had better) and measurables out of high school, Wells was considered one of the top tailbacks, and Hillis one of the top fullbacks?

Id love to hear you go through all of these examples, because those are only some, like how Nate Kmic broke the all time rushing record with 8k yards, ran a 4.5, small but not that small, like 5'9 200, yet no tryout or anything. Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts from the same school got plenty of opportunities. Danny Woodhead broke the record before him, put up great numbers at his pro day (not invited to the combine) and went undrafted, Jets wanted to keep Clowney over him, now he is used as a utilitiy player when he should be getting at least half the carries, he is comparable to Darren Sproles, except bigger. The rushing leader before that was Justin Beaver, ran a 4.3 at his pro day, no interest from the NFL either.

Dude I coach high school football and was an assistant at the FCS level, and white coaches believe it or not! still have stereotypical views on players, without even seeing a kid play they are slotted to their racially appropriate position. So you think whites have this secret society where they help out other whites all the time. Get over yourself.

The only thing he benefited from by being white is being put on the Madden cover whoopty doo, which has nothing to do with how coaches use him on the field. He was 6th among backs that year with yards from scrimmage and had double digit tds. Ron Dayne was a big guy that ran with no power, people liked seeing Hillis run over people and hurting them, as well as jumping over people.

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Old 03-15-2013, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by batsandgats View Post
fans voted him on the cover, not the NFL, so that doesn't prove jack. Yeah teams don't want power runners, thats why we have guys like Trent Richardson, Shonn Greene (who just got a new deal with another team), Eddie Lacy is supposed to a be a featured back as well. Hillis is not just a powerback, he has moves as well, and there are plenty of backs like that. He can catch well out of the backfield, he had 60+ catches his season starting, and he had a 100 yard game receiving with the Broncos....so yeah that doesn't fit this passing league? sure....you made an excellent point.

Yea I can't think of any other injury prone backs that get chance after chance, like a Ryan Matthews or a Darren McFadden. Teams still use power runners and one that can catch well is not common, Shonn Greene can't even catch, slower than Hillis as well, yet the Titans plan on him splitting carries with Johnson, him being the thunder.. Hillis had his main injury problems one season, thats it. Was it a passing league when Brandon Jacobs got his chance? yep, was he prone to injury? yep. There are dozens of examples of injury prone backs getting chance after chance. Its not like its his knees, he has a nagging hamstring issue that can easily be corrected. Hillis still has plenty of tread left being that he wasn't a featured back in college (although he played fb, wr, te, return man) and only one season of starting in the NFL. The injury with the Broncos was a fluke, dude landed on his head. Teams are still looking at Beanie Wells despite his injury problems and lack of production, with only 1 good year out of 4, and unlike Hillis, he was given opportunity after opportunity.

The media in the Cleveland area blew up a few incidents, he got bad advice from his agent and sat out a game and failed to show up at a kid's event, which was his agent's fault, yeah that makes him a big prick somehow, yet he has had no character concerns with the Chiefs or the Broncos. The Browns didn't want him as their back, the new regime wanted their guy and the guy couldn't fart in public without the papers writing about it. Like he is the only player that messed up things due to contract disputes. Please..... Richardson comes in and averages the same ypc as Hillis when he was having nagging injuries (3.6) yet is considered a stud. If he were not white he wouldn't be hated on this much, and apparently putting up 100 yards towards the final of the season despite Charles getting the bulk of the carries means nothing? The Browns with the new staff wanted Montario Hardesty to be the feature back but he kept injuring his knees, yet they still wanted him and he was garbage when he was finally healthy, so they drafted Richardson

Id love to hear you go through all of these examples, because those are only some, like how Nate Kmic broke the all time rushing record with 8k yards, ran a 4.5, small but not that small, like 5'9 200, yet no tryout or anything. Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts from the same school got plenty of opportunities. Danny Woodhead broke the record before him, put up great numbers at his pro day (not invited to the combine) and went undrafted, Jets wanted to keep Clowney over him, now he is used as a utilitiy player when he should be getting at least half the carries, he is comparable to Darren Sproles, except bigger. The rushing leader before that was Justin Beaver, ran a 4.3 at his pro day, no interest from the NFL either.

Dude I coach high school football and was an assistant at the FCS level, and white coaches believe it or not! still have stereotypical views on players, without even seeing a kid play they are slotted to their racially appropriate position. So you think whites have this secret society where they help out other whites all the time. Get over yourself.
Um, it's not a secret and none of this is about me. At this point I'm going to say go ahead and lead your idiotic one man revolution against imaginary white on white discrimination and get out of my face.
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