Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > Draft Countdown Forums > 2014 NFL Draft Forum

2014 NFL Draft Forum Discuss the 2014 NFL Draft

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-27-2011, 06:59 AM    (permalink
Halsey
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cookeville,TN
Posts: 4,932
Reputation: 617070
Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Roddy White will be 30 this year. I don't think that qualifies as a 'young' #1.
__________________
What?
Halsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 08:42 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dodge City
Posts: 7,423
Reputation: 1183720
FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

If the option is Little versus JJ, there's no choice but to go with Julio IMO.

Little is immature, totally raw as a WR prospect and probably won't be ready to start or contribute in a major way for Cleveland(?) until 2012.

Could Little develop into a Brandon Marshall type player?? Yeah.

But he could be another Devin Thomas who's still trying to figure out what it means to be an NFL WR.

If the Falcons end up in the NFCC in 2011 and Julio is the 2nd leading WR for Atlanta, IMO it was a good trade, short term.

Not every team has the Patriots philosophy that a potent passing game can be built around a roster of #2/#3 WRs.

If the Falcons had traded up for AJ Green instead at pick 6, would people still be upset???
__________________
FUNBUNCHER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 08:49 AM    (permalink
ATLDirtyBirds
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,916
Reputation: 1423028
ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkyRamsFan View Post
T

Also, some have said that they heard Billy Devaney say in a radio interview that he was looking to trade up or something to that effect. Heh!! That's really kinda funny, lol.

There is no one better at blowing smoke during and after the draft time, and I wouldn't put a bit of credence in anything Billy Devaney says about the Rams draft board and/or plans.

I'm not sure exactly what purpose it serves to throw out misinformation about the 2011 Draft in late May, but whatever.

From him:

"By far... except for the guy we drafted at 14... Julio was my favorite player in the class."

"Special kid on and off the field, I think he's going to be a great player."

"Future team leader, do whatever you have to do to get a guy like that."

"If Julio fell to a certain point, that's when we were ready to make our move. We just couldn't afford to give up a first round pick next year, because we aren't at the Falcons level."
__________________
ATLDirtyBirds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 11:02 AM    (permalink
descendency
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NC State
Posts: 8,043
Reputation: 943969
descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.descendency is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

The only clear way to tell if this was a good trade or not is to get a few years of football down.

Is it a bad trade if they get a young TO minus the attitude problems?
__________________
I was gone for 2 months doing things I can't talk about. It might happen again, but that's just the nature of what I do and who I am.
descendency is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 11:06 AM    (permalink
BamaFalcon59
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Alabama
Posts: 10,925
Reputation: 226837
BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BamaFalcon59 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

JMO but Julio fits the team better than Green anyways. Better for a ball control offense IMO and Julio is the better blocker as well. Not to mention the bust factor decreases substantially with him having time to learn behind Roddy.

AJ IMO needs to have a QB who can toss the rock deep, Matt has had some difficulties in that regard.
__________________
Virginia Tech.
ACC Champions 2004, 2007, 2008, 2010

Next Up: 2012
BamaFalcon59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 12:55 PM    (permalink
SativaDominant
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 113
Reputation: 41942
SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SativaDominant is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanHope View Post
At risk of getting sucked back into this, for me, the argument isn't Greg Little > Julio Jones, or even Little =/= Jones. It's that a 2011 1st RDer + Greg Little + 2012 1st RD'er + 2011 4th RD'er + 2012 4th RD'er > Jones.

Plus, the talent gap is diminished between the two based on the positional need and value. The player will be the #2 WR (at least at first), and not the go-to guy who is Roddy White. That lowers the ceiling, especially since I don't think the Falcons will be a heavy pass team regardless of Jones. They have a great back in Turner and I don't think that type of offense suits Matt Ryan, who is already a low percentage passer and has lapses in his decision making. I don't think there's a single person who believes Little is a better prospect than Jones. But that is through the vein of projecting a #1 WR (which both are expected to be in time, which is hard to project considering the Browns don't have a WR worth a damn in front of Little and Roddy White is entering prime at a position that has a long lifespan). Through the vein of a #2 WR, less will be required and both have the ability to fulfill that requirement, yet one was immensely cheaper than the other.

I think what really has people disliking this trade is the waste. There is guaranteed waste in this, whether with the trade, Julio, or the current personnel. You make a blockbuster trade to pick a guy for the #2 WR spot, with the rationale that he might develop into a #1 WR when the current go-to WR diminishes. The plan is to put him in at #2 WR, let him develop and contribute for the likely 4 seasons for White to diminish, and then Jones transitions seemlessly into the go-to role for Matt Ryan. What happens if Julio lives up to his talent? Awesome, so how do you maximize both Jones, White, and Michael Turner for the years White/Turner are in their primes? It probably won't happen. One guy's talent will be wasted. And if it's Julio's, he'll be labeled a bust because you don't make this trade and take a guy that high to make him second (or 3rd) fiddle until he's entering his 2nd contract. Julio Jones doesn't live up to his talent? He'll be labeled a bust and the Falcons will have wasted all those picks they traded to get him. If Julio develops into a good #2 but can't make it at #1, he'll be labeled a bust and the Falcons would have wasted all those picks.

If there's a negative coming out of a trade when the player works out, how can I objectively call it a good trade? For me, I'm not going to label this a good or bad thing based on what Julio Jones develops into. It's going to be if the Falcons win. This trade is only good if the wins gained by having all these players at their disposal allows for more wins. If they lose, I don't care if Matt Ryan has the best WR tandem in the league or has an elite option for the rest of his career - the team got worse, which is the problem. And for most people to eventually approve of this, Julio will have to beast and the Falcons will have to win.
This post pretty much sums up my feelings on this situation far more succinctly than I've been able to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
If the option is Little versus JJ, there's no choice but to go with Julio IMO.

Little is immature, totally raw as a WR prospect and probably won't be ready to start or contribute in a major way for Cleveland(?) until 2012.

Could Little develop into a Brandon Marshall type player?? Yeah.

But he could be another Devin Thomas who's still trying to figure out what it means to be an NFL WR.

If the Falcons end up in the NFCC in 2011 and Julio is the 2nd leading WR for Atlanta, IMO it was a good trade, short term.

Not every team has the Patriots philosophy that a potent passing game can be built around a roster of #2/#3 WRs.

If the Falcons had traded up for AJ Green instead at pick 6, would people still be upset???
The Falcons wouldn't have to adhere to that philosophy because they already have a dominant first option on the roster. Further, if they had traded up for AJ Green, I'd like the trade even less. They'd be forced to give up even more than they did and Green's skill set would be redundant to White's - whereas Julio has a far better skillset for being a complimentary receiver to White.

And, again, I don't think and have never tried to make the argument that Julio Jones is a bad player, or will be a terrible NFL player - only that he was overvalued as a prospect and that the Falcons gave up too much to get him. Comparing him to Reggie Williams doesn't mean I think their careers will be similar, as I don't think it's possible to have a worse career as a top 10 receiver than Williams did. It was to point out a player with a similar skillset and playing style that was deemed an incredibly safe prospect and was compared most often to Terrell Owens coming out of college - a very similar pre-draft profile to Jones. Not only that, but I also conceded that Julio already has several advantages over Williams in terms of situation and personal temperament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by descendency View Post
The only clear way to tell if this was a good trade or not is to get a few years of football down.

Is it a bad trade if they get a young TO minus the attitude problems?
In a vacuum, no, because it's never bad to get good football players.

However, are we analyzing this in a vacuum? What if he's a young TO, but they make little-to-no progress in winning a Superbowl? What if a receiver drafted afterwards has a better career? What if the picks they gave up end up hurting their chances of supplementing their defense with young talent?

Last edited by SativaDominant : 06-27-2011 at 01:02 PM.
SativaDominant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 05:11 PM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dodge City
Posts: 7,423
Reputation: 1183720
FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

People IMO are too caught up into the fact of whether JJ will be the #2 WR for the Falcons, thus not worth the value of the trade.

Julio won't be a secondary option for Ryan, who gets the ball will be determined by coverage.

Who remembers when the Vikes drafted Randy Moss?? Chris Carter wasn't suddenly the '#2 WR' for the Vikes, neither was Moss. They were BOTH primary targets in the passing game, the only difference being Randy Moss ran more deep routes and Carter worked mainly underneath.

From 1998-2000, both WRs put up pro bowl numbers; the designation of #1 or #2 WR isn't always relevant in determining the role of every WR in a given offense.

Julio Jones ultimately won't be Ryan's secondary read in the passing game, coverage will determine who gets the ball, not who's the #1.

Saying that Julio is going to be the #2 in the Falcons offense IMO is severely underestimating his perceived role in Atlanta's offense.

Julio IMO was drafted to be a PLAYMAKER for the Falcons in their passing game, not just some guy to line up across from Roddy White to pick up first downs.
__________________
FUNBUNCHER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 05:21 PM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 20,784
Reputation: 1970937
LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Saying that Julio is going to be the #2 in the Falcons offense IMO is severely underestimating his perceived role in Atlanta's offense.
This is 1 thing I don't get, people keep saying #2 WR as to diminish how valuable he's gonna truly be. The Falcons were a running, slow paced offense because they had no other choice. Quick who is their #3 WR? Exactly. Michael Jenkins was the #2 and nobody is gonna open up anything with him on the other end.
__________________





Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wright View Post
I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
LonghornsLegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 05:43 PM    (permalink
ATLDirtyBirds
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,916
Reputation: 1423028
ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post


and, by most accounts, to protect a weak defense.
Our defense is spectacularly average. It's obviously not strong, but it is not weak.
__________________
ATLDirtyBirds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 06:14 PM    (permalink
d34ng3l021
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Back to back to back winning seasons ftw
Posts: 6,974
Reputation: 64327
d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.d34ng3l021 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
2 doesn't support 1. there is always a primary read in the passing game, sort of like there was in their passing game last year. sort of like there is in every passing game at every level beyond sand lot. if roddy is the primary read, he *is* the de facto #1 receiver. sort of like moss might've been the #1 read on down field plays, while carter was on shorter routes.
Exactly: each play has its own primary receiver. On any given play, Matt Ryan will either look for Roddy White first or Michael Jenkins first. What sort of plays do you think Mularkey opted for more often?? And in the case that the opposing DC guessed that Roddy White would be the #1 read (which isn't hard to do) Matt Ryan is stuck throwing to Michael Jenkins, Tony Gonzalez, and Michael Turner in the case that their route running ability allowed them to be free, because they aren't getting open on speed and talent alone.

Now if there is a much more capable #2 on the team than Michael Jenkins and Greg Little, does that or does that not open up the playbook for Mularkey and make the Falcons offense less predictable and more explosive? If the Falcons start making Julio Jones the #1 read on more plays, opposing defenses are less likely to roll over coverage to Roddy White. And with a higher chance to be beat deep against Jones than Jenkins/Little, opposing defenses are less likely to stack the box against Turner as well.
__________________

"He's the leader of the next great class of NFL players." - John Elway on Matt Ryan
d34ng3l021 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 07:05 PM    (permalink
TACKLE
All-NFLDC
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,904
Reputation: 4603369
TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TACKLE is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by d34ng3l021 View Post
Exactly: each play has its own primary receiver..
That's not really true. Each play has its own read progression which is dictated by the coverage. Yes each play has a primary receiver in a sense, but that's not based on the person as much as it's based on the play design and the route concept. The route concepts against certain defenses can be designed to get a specific guy the ball but predetermining who you're going to throw to as soon as the play is called is how turnovers are born.
__________________
TACKLE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 05:18 PM    (permalink
onejayhawk
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 905
Reputation: 48792
onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
This is 1 thing I don't get, people keep saying #2 WR as to diminish how valuable he's gonna truly be. The Falcons were a running, slow paced offense because they had no other choice. Quick who is their #3 WR? Exactly. Michael Jenkins was the #2 and nobody is gonna open up anything with him on the other end.
It is intriguing to put it this way, because another team was reported to be interested in moving up for JJ, just not quite that high. The team is Kansas City, who got involved in the other end of the Cleveland trade. The Chiefs had a Pro Bowl WR, Dwayne Bowe, and three buckets of warm WR spit. If not for a stud rookie TE, the passing attack would have been hard up. See, for example, the first half of 2009. As it was, they settled for the third WR, Jon Baldwin, who has a lot of the same physical aspects, but little of the leadership and intangibles.

In any event, it says a great deal that a WR is capable of holding down the WR2 slot as a rookie. Doubly so when the team is a contender. In this draft, there were only two players expected to be able to pull it off: Green and JJ. Of the rest, Baldwin stands above the pack. Little has been mentioned. He is a guy that might hope to fill the role of WR2 in 2-3 years. By that point, JJ is supposed to be a Pro Bowl player. Downgrading him because he is "only" a WR2 is silly.

J
onejayhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 10:29 PM    (permalink
etk
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,140
Reputation: 46580
etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.etk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
JMO but Julio fits the team better than Green anyways. Better for a ball control offense IMO and Julio is the better blocker as well. Not to mention the bust factor decreases substantially with him having time to learn behind Roddy.

AJ IMO needs to have a QB who can toss the rock deep, Matt has had some difficulties in that regard.
Why do people act as though it's a foregone conclusion and universal opinion that Green is better than Jones? I've never supported that.

I wouldn't have made the trade personally because WR isn't a big value position, but the Falcons won't be crippled by it or anything. Julio really improves the offense and makes the Falcons even more difficult to get off the field on 3rd downs. I prefer to think long-term and accumulate picks but the trade should provide instant pay-off.

The rest of the Falcons draft was solid. Dent is very underrated. He's pwerfully explosive and athletic. Quiz is a workhorse that can catch the football. Bosher is far from the best kicker in the draft but he has elite intangibles and versatility. I wouldn't bet against him.
__________________

sig by BoneKrusher
etk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 01:11 AM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 20,784
Reputation: 1970937
LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by etk View Post
Why do people act as though it's a foregone conclusion and universal opinion that Green is better than Jones? I've never supported that.
I have no idea.

I've always felt Julio was a better prospect, and the only questions Julio had he answered this past season. Yes AJ has more consistent hands and Julio does drop some easy ones, but overall, I'd take Julio 10 out of 10 times and I think AJ has a better chance to be just "solid" then Julio. I know I'm certainly in the minority which is fine, but I'm sticking with my guns.


Julio is a big, strong, powerful, explosive WR who is gonna terrorize DB's in the NFL. More then anything he's a high character guy, who bust his tail and wants to be the best, as well as pushes himself to be that type of player. Alot of people overlook that aspect, but it's hard to ask for more to get a guy with a very high ceiling, and the work ethic to want to achieve it.


That's not to say AJ is lazy by any means, just not taking him over Julio. He's gonna struggle early until they get something to resemble an offense.
__________________





Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wright View Post
I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
LonghornsLegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 01:25 AM    (permalink
Halsey
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cookeville,TN
Posts: 4,932
Reputation: 617070
Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

AJ is a better pass catcher, but I believe both will be great. Their success will be heavily affected by who is throwing them the ball and who stays healthy.
__________________
What?
Halsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 12:38 PM    (permalink
ATLDirtyBirds
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,916
Reputation: 1423028
ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ATLDirtyBirds is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by etk View Post
Why do people act as though it's a foregone conclusion and universal opinion that Green is better than Jones? I've never supported that.

Green is much more explosive out of his routes/breaks. He's also much more explosive over the top. Better hands, body control, and a larger catching radius. I personally just like him as a more polished, and complete receiver.

That being said, I don't see him having the potential to dominate the middle of the field/intermediate routes like Julio might be able to. And as Sativa said before, that's more of what the Falcons need right now, with Roddy being where he is. Not to mention, the fact that Tony Gonzalez is no longer a major factor outside of 3rd and shorts/red zone.
__________________
ATLDirtyBirds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 01:30 PM    (permalink
FTRWRTR
Rookie
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 308
Reputation: 10147
FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FTRWRTR is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by prock
Not one person in this thread who is pro-Julio trade has answered how one rookie receiver with a high ceiling (whom I absolutely loved as a prospect) is better than 5 picks
IMO the deal can't be looked that way. You have to consider the players they could've gotten with those picks and what they do this year, you have to see who the falcons get in free agency and how well they perform this year, and you have to wait and see how Jones impacts both the offense and defense this year.

A wr affecting the defense may sound crazy but hear me out. Remember when the bucs had a killer defense led by warren sapp but they were just an ok team? Sapp would say all they needed was an offense that could give them 17 points per game and they would win. Well eventually dungy was fired, gruden was hired and they added some offensive firepower. The defense stayed the same but with a new offense they went from a team that was one and done to a team that won a SB. Like sapp said the offense helped the defense because instead of being able to take a few sips of gatorade and getting a brief rest, they could drink a whole cup of gatorade and get five minutes of rest. A better rested defense is a more effective defense. I'm not saying Jones will give ATL 17 more ppg but he will help keep the chains moving and allow their young defense to get more rest and thus be more productive.

Last edited by FTRWRTR : 06-29-2011 at 01:40 PM.
FTRWRTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 08:04 PM    (permalink
onejayhawk
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 905
Reputation: 48792
onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.onejayhawk is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by prock View Post
Not one person in this thread who is pro-Julio trade has answered how one rookie receiver with a high ceiling (whom I absolutely loved as a prospect) is better than 5 picks.
Funny, that part was made clear enough to me. In the simplest terms, one good player is worth more than any number of poor players. A very good player is worth more than several marginal ones. It is not unreasonable for the Falcons to believe that Julio Jones is going to be worth more, this year, than five much lower picks. Longer term, we will see.

There is a level of of talent that is simply available, ie players signed off the street. Above that are players that make the roster. Then solid rotation players, then starters, then stars, then elite players. The key to remember is that a new player does not step into a vaccuum, but rather pushes someone down, or off, a depth chart. Each drafted player represents an improvement in some area. If the player pushed out is good, then the improvement is smaller than if he were mediocre. For a good team, like the Falcons, rookies often have little impact except on special teams.

One elite player cannot make a bad team into a good one, but he could make a good team into a contender. That is what the Falcons are seeing. They think that JJ can be a bigger upgrade on their poor WR depth than the collective improvement of 5 later picks.

I am not saying they are correct, but given Cleveland's record in the draft, I would be a bit surprised if JJ's career does not over match all picks they gave up.

J
onejayhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 08:28 PM    (permalink
ArkyRamsFan
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 549
Reputation: 11378
ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ArkyRamsFan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by onejayhawk View Post
I am not saying they are correct, but given Cleveland's record in the draft, I would be a bit surprised if JJ's career does not over match all picks they gave up.

J
Another non sequitur argument. What Cleveland has done in past drafts is not indicative of what they will do with the picks acquired in this trade because of a myriad of reasons.

Chiefly among them is the new regime featuring Mike Homgren which has only been in place for 2 years now.

If the Browns had the same bumbling management team in place currently as they had in the past, your point would have more credibility.

BTW it wasn't too long ago that the Falcons themselves were also among the worst organizations at the draft.

Things can and do change.
ArkyRamsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 11:57 PM    (permalink
Halsey
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cookeville,TN
Posts: 4,932
Reputation: 617070
Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkyRamsFan View Post
Things can and do change.
Non sequitor argument! Just because things changed in the past does not mean they'll change in the future!
__________________
What?
Halsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 12:19 AM    (permalink
TitanHope
Website Contributor
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 12,968
Reputation: 6041227
TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitanHope is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by d34ng3l021 View Post
Matt Ryan was ranked 9th in the league in terms of attempts/game in 2010, and this is while he was a 3rd year QB with a running game that was ranked 5th in attempts/game. As this league continues to emphasize the passing game and Michael Turner takes more punishment, I don't see why the Falcons and their growing franchise QB can't become a pass heavy team. I don't think the argument that "Matt Ryan is a low percentage passer" (what does that even mean? Ryan's comp. % in his first 3 years is 60.7. Peyton Manning: 61.1, Drew Brees: 61.3, Tom Brady: 61.9. I guess those offenses aren't going to become pass-orien-oh wait...) or that he has lapses in decision making (damn, a 3rd year QB is still having lapses in decision making? instead of throwing an interception every 42 passes, it should be 100!).
By low percentage passer, I mean he throws for 6.5 Y/A and only completes 62.5% of his passes. Normally, the percentage would be ok - I think it's 12th in the league. But at 6.5 Y/A, that's not good - It's t-26th in the league. When you compare that to other QB's with 5 or fewer seasons as a starter, you have Rivers who is #3 in % and #1 in Y/A, Rodgers who is #5 in % and #2 in Y/A, Joe Flacco who is #10 in % and #9 Y/A, and Josh Freeman who is #16 in % and 12th in Y/A. And Ryan was worse the year before, where he threw for 6.5 Y/A at 58.3%. The best he's done was his rookie year where he completed 61.1% of his passes at 7.9 Y/a. What happened to that guy, and how does a more experienced player with an added Tony Gonzalez get worse in that regard?

The lapse in decision making accusation was probably unfair, especially when you factor in Ryan's clutch resume.

Quote:
And yes, Little is the much more cheaper option as a #2 WR, and yes, they both reach the baseline ability level of being a good WR 2, but how are you going to leave it at that? Both will meet the requirement, but if one WR, due to his excess talent and work ethic, is able to beat coverages more often than the other, why doesn't be get props for that? Assuming a scenario where both Jones or Little are the Falcon's #2 WR, my guess is that Jones beats coverages more often, becomes more of a reliable option for Ryan, and opens up the big play ability between him and White more consistently. The last reasoning is exactly why the Falcons traded the farm for a WR (that and defenses have to be honest against Turner).
It does count, but is that excess worth all those picks that could improve other parts of the team? Sure, Julio is better and will offer more than Little, but my argument is could Little meet the requirements that Michael Jenkins failed to meet and allow the Falcons to use those picks, which would have been two 1st RD picks and two 4th RD picks since the pick of Little would have been a 2nd RD'er, to improve other parts of the team?

So in essence, you're choosing the difference in Jones's ability to beat coverages and becoming a more reliable option at #2 WR over four picks, two of which are premium 1st RD selections.

Quote:
Wasting talent is exactly what won't happen - I guess it is a matter of how you look at it. White is a perfectly capable #1 for the next 2-3 years while Jones won't be ready to be a #1 for the next 2-3 years (or a little more). Julio Jones was brought in to take the heat off Roddy White and make defenses honest against the run - if he can stretch the defense more consistently than slow-as-molasses Michael Jenkins, he is already doing his part in oiling up the machine that is the Falcons' offense. I don't see how talent is getting wasted if White, Turner, and Jones are all starters and on the field at once. On every given pass play, they BOTH have a chance to beat their coverage and Matt Ryan has more options for making decisions. Of course, Roddy between the ages of 30-33 will get more targets than Jones between the ages of 22-25, but I don't consider that talent wasting - I think you do?
I do, because as I stated, if there isn't waste with Julio or the current personnel, there is in the trade. I'm not sure you make this trade for a WR at all, let alone one who will be relegated to the #2 option until he's 25. Do you use two 1st RD picks, a 2nd RD pick, and two 4th RD picks to improve two players who posted 115/1,389/10 and 1,371/4.1/12 seasons? How much do you reasonably expect those players to improve, and at the same token, how do you improve those two and get the most out of them while also getting the most out of a guy who has massive talent and just cost you a massive amount?

White and Turner are already elite, so I'm not sure Jones will make them significantly better - or at least enough to support this trade. And in order to take advantage of said improvement, it will take opportunities away from Julio, who himself needs to make enough an individual impact to support the trade and #6 overall pick. Not to mention for any of this to happen, Matt Ryan has to become elitely efficient, which he hasn't been over the past two years. Maybe adding Jones and another year under his belt will get him there though, so who knows.

For me, in order for there not to be waste in talent or from the trade, Matt Ryan has to complete more passes and throw further down the field, Roddy White has to improve a great season, Michael Turner has to improve a great season, Roddy White has to put up a very promising rookie season, and the Falcons have to win. That's a lot to do, and I'm not sure it'll happen.

Quote:
Exactly. It's nice to finally agree on something. Julio Jones' impact on this team is more than the number of catches and yards he gains. Matt Ryan, Michael Turner, and Roddy White all had career lows in YPA and YPC (6.5, 4.1, and 12.1) and that is what caused the offense to sputter out. Some of the non-explosiveness was on purpose to keep the weak Falcon's defense off the field, but explosive plays are needed to if the Falcons are to fall behind more than 14 points. The immediate returns of this trade are going to be measured through the increase in the star trio's efficiency averages; Jones can gain anywhere between 300-900 yards, but if the trio's YPA and YPC rises noticeably to 7.0, 4.5, and 14.0, I will consider the Jones' trade a success. That is how the success of this trade is to be measured because that is why the trade happened. I know that next season people will be calling the Julio Jones trade a bust because he didn't put up 850 yards with 8 TDs in his rookie season, but remember to check out the rest of the team's success.
100% agreed.

But this whole "falling behind 14 points" thing is kinda silly. If you go down by two TD's, it's not supposed to be expected to comeback and win. That's not the norm, and the ones who do usually need opposing turnovers or defensive scores to do so. I'm not sure if adding Jones will buck this trend, but he'll definitely improve the odds.
__________________
Still Team The Ke$ha!!!

[@TDWinstead]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) View Post
Damn Ke$ha is sexy.

Last edited by TitanHope : 06-30-2011 at 12:22 AM.
TitanHope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 10:54 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
Team Leader
Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 28,829
Reputation: 3934030
bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I also like Julio better for Atlanta than AJ. It's a better fit. You want Roddy's compliment to be a guy who can just beat up DBs underneath while White takes the top off the defense.

Green would be another seam stretcher, but Julio compliments better. Plus he's a better run blocker.

I'd probably take Julio over Green straight up as a prospect. I was a big Julio fan. Not to take anything away from AJ, but I just like Julio's body type more.

It depends on what you're looking for I guess. I think Julio was a better compliment to White, so they took the right WR in my eyes.
__________________
bigbluedefense is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 11:03 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
Team Leader
Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 28,829
Reputation: 3934030
bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

In regards to Atlanta's defense, they are average. Not bad, not great, but average.

Very blue collar. You won't see star names or talent jump out at you, but a bunch of solid blue collar guys who work together to get the job done. I think this will be an issue when you face a team like the Packers bc when you go against a star studded offense, a blue collar D can only do so much, but as a defense that can hold up in the regular season and do enough to compliment your offense, it gets the job done.

But that's the problem, the playoffs are a different animal and there is just not enough talent on that defense to really get after it in the postseason, and it will show. You can't hide anything in the playoffs. Ask the Patriots, they can't stretch the field, and it got exposed by the Jets in the playoffs.

The Falcons blue collar D couldn't hide in the playoffs. You can't hide in the playoffs, and if they really want to take the next step, they need more talent on defense.

I will say this, I do like their LB core quite a bit. Lofton is a beast, and I think Spoon will develop to be a nice compliment to him. The problems I have is

1. They rely WAY too much on Abraham for a pass rush. The guy is good every other year, and he's getting old. You can't rely on him to be your pass rush anymore, he needs help. They need another pass rusher, specifically a DE in the worst way.

2. I will give their safeties a pass, I think Moore can develop into a playmaker at safety, or at least a blue collar guy back there that gives them a good enough presence, but they need better depth at CB. In today's league, you need 3 very good CBs. They have 2 solid guys in Robinson and Grimes (both of whom I think aren't as great as their perception), but you need that nickel CB to be just as good as your 2 starters.

Their defense is built to compliment their offense, so going after star talent on offense wasn't a terrible idea. I just think they have more holes to fill and it won't be easy with how much they gave up to get that explosive player.
__________________
bigbluedefense is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 12:21 PM    (permalink
ImBrotherCain
SWDC Mafia
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 11,089
Reputation: 2886887
ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ImBrotherCain is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
In regards to Atlanta's defense, they are average. Not bad, not great, but average.

Very blue collar. You won't see star names or talent jump out at you, but a bunch of solid blue collar guys who work together to get the job done. I think this will be an issue when you face a team like the Packers bc when you go against a star studded offense, a blue collar D can only do so much, but as a defense that can hold up in the regular season and do enough to compliment your offense, it gets the job done.

But that's the problem, the playoffs are a different animal and there is just not enough talent on that defense to really get after it in the postseason, and it will show. You can't hide anything in the playoffs. Ask the Patriots, they can't stretch the field, and it got exposed by the Jets in the playoffs.

The Falcons blue collar D couldn't hide in the playoffs. You can't hide in the playoffs, and if they really want to take the next step, they need more talent on defense.

I will say this, I do like their LB core quite a bit. Lofton is a beast, and I think Spoon will develop to be a nice compliment to him. The problems I have is

1. They rely WAY too much on Abraham for a pass rush. The guy is good every other year, and he's getting old. You can't rely on him to be your pass rush anymore, he needs help. They need another pass rusher, specifically a DE in the worst way.

2. I will give their safeties a pass, I think Moore can develop into a playmaker at safety, or at least a blue collar guy back there that gives them a good enough presence, but they need better depth at CB. In today's league, you need 3 very good CBs. They have 2 solid guys in Robinson and Grimes (both of whom I think aren't as great as their perception), but you need that nickel CB to be just as good as your 2 starters.

Their defense is built to compliment their offense, so going after star talent on offense wasn't a terrible idea. I just think they have more holes to fill and it won't be easy with how much they gave up to get that explosive player.
Is it just me or did you say "Blue" a lot.
__________________
ImBrotherCain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 12:29 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
Team Leader
Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 28,829
Reputation: 3934030
bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

What can I say, that's the best way to describe their defense. I think Falcon fans will back me up on that.
__________________
bigbluedefense is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.