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Old 01-03-2012, 05:51 PM    (permalink
Bulldogs
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I still stand by the fact that you take an elite player if he's there. The Browns should have Mark Sanchez and Julio Jones right now, not Alex Mack, Greg Little, a couple late picks, and next years first.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
no need for a correction. I said we got 2 firsts, 1 second, and 2 fourths for ONE player, which we did. 5 picks for one pick.

I've said earlier in this thread that the trade is a win for both teams as long as Jones is a big time playmaker. Falcons needed one of those more than they needed the picks really b/c they are ready to compete for a super bowl and are maybe a couple players away from that.

Phil Taylor is going to be a beast, Greg Little looks like he'll be a pretty good #2 WR at least (which is decent for a late 2nd rounder eh?). Add in the other first we're getting this year and it's gonna work out very well for the Browns. That is 4 starters (maybe 5 if the other 4th round pick this year ends up starting) for one player so far. Those two first round picks are expected to equate to pro bowl players, and the second is expected to be a quality starter. Trading at least 2 potential pro bowlers and 4 - 5 potential starters is what the Falcons gave up for Jones. They knew it when they made the trade, that is why the trade is a little controversial for Atlanta. Very steep price for one non-QB.
Except to get RG111, we may have to give up that other 1st and the late round picks of Atlanta last year may equate only to 2 starters and not much more. Only time will tell if they are pro bowlers. Come back at me again when we win more than 4 games. Sorry to be critical but let's see that win total rise before I believe the Browns got anything out of the trade.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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I still stand by the fact that you take an elite player if he's there. The Browns should have Mark Sanchez and Julio Jones right now, not Alex Mack, Greg Little, a couple late picks, and next years first.
:shrug: I thought Phil Taylor was an elite talent in last year's draft who was really undervalued. Comparable talent to Raji. Not quite as good, but comparable.

How this trade ends up for Cleveland is entirely dependent on what they do with their two firsts this year. If they can somehow end up with an elite QB/player, it's a win.

Julio's better than I thought he'd be, but Mark Sanchez on the Browns? Really? People think he did a poor job this year because his team's talent dropped off...imagine him on the ******* Browns.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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I still stand by the fact that you take an elite player if he's there. The Browns should have Mark Sanchez and Julio Jones right now, not Alex Mack, Greg Little, a couple late picks, and next years first.
hmmm....something's doesn't add up here :D
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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this is the trade BTW

Atlanta gets:

2011 RD1-Julio Jones

Cleveland gets:

2011 RD1-Phil Taylor
2011 RD2-Greg Little
2011 RD4-Owen Marecic
2012 RD1-(TBD)
2012 RD4-(TBD)

what if the Packers franchise Matt Flynn, we trade that 1st for him, and he turns out to be a great QB? What if we use that 1st on Kendall Wright who turns out to be the next Steve Smith or Mike Wallace? With 5 high picks like that at least one of those guys are bound to be a great player if not bordering on "elite" as well.
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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hmmm....something's doesn't add up here :D
Agreed, Mark Sanchez isn't an elite quarterback, but I'm in the belief if you need a QB, and there's a good prospect on the board, you draft him. A good quarterback makes the the team around him much better. Maybe the pick would've busted for them, but the offense couldn't have been much worse than it is now. I still think Sanchez has talent, but barring some comeback season next year he might not even be a starter in the NFL after that.
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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Mark Sanchez sucks. Donkey balls.
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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keep in mind that at that point a lot of Browns people thought that Brady Quinn still potentially was the answer and we weren't aggressively pursuing QBs. In fact what Mangini told Randy Lerner when he hired him was that he "could win with Brady Quinn." They weren't dead set on finding a QB that offseason.

Alex Mack has scored more touchdowns in the pro bowl (1) than Sanchez will ever score there. :D If Sanchez worked out it would've been a bad trade (no denying Mangini was an awful GM) but in hindsight it worked out okay for us.
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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I still stand by the fact that you take an elite player if he's there. The Browns should have Mark Sanchez and Julio Jones right now, not Alex Mack, Greg Little, a couple late picks, and next years first.
The Mack/Sanchez trade would have been 10x better if Mangini wasn't running the draft, we screwed up so bad with the extra picks (Robiskie Veikune and Massaquoi in the second round that year... We could have had Malaluga and LeSean McCoy and they were both players that fans wanted at the time.)

We actually would have Mack Little and Phil Taylor instead of Mark Sanchez (OH NO I'M SO BUMMED WE DON'T HAVE ANOTHER MEDIOCRE QB ON OUR TEAM) and Julio Jones (Great player, but not worth Taylor, another late first, Greg Little etc...)

If we can snag Flynn/Blackmon this year then the trade makes perfect sense for us, and it is still a good trade for Atlanta. They have a lot more talent than we do so they were able to make a trade like this.
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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RG3 should start looking for a house in Ohio if the Browns are on the clock and he's still in the green room.
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Julio's better than I thought he'd be


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Old 01-03-2012, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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The Mack/Sanchez trade would have been 10x better if Mangini wasn't running the draft, we screwed up so bad with the extra picks (Robiskie Veikune and Massaquoi in the second round that year... We could have had Malaluga and LeSean McCoy and they were both players that fans wanted at the time.)

We actually would have Mack Little and Phil Taylor instead of Mark Sanchez (OH NO I'M SO BUMMED WE DON'T HAVE ANOTHER MEDIOCRE QB ON OUR TEAM) and Julio Jones (Great player, but not worth Taylor, another late first, Greg Little etc...)

If we can snag Flynn/Blackmon this year then the trade makes perfect sense for us, and it is still a good trade for Atlanta. They have a lot more talent than we do so they were able to make a trade like this.
Not to mention, the package of picks/players the Jets gave the Browns was complete garbage and not worth the draft slot.
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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this is the trade BTW

Atlanta gets:

2011 RD1-Julio Jones

Cleveland gets:

2011 RD1-Phil Taylor
2011 RD2-Greg Little
2011 RD4-Owen Marecic
2012 RD1-(TBD)
2012 RD4-(TBD)

what if the Packers franchise Matt Flynn, we trade that 1st for him, and he turns out to be a great QB? What if we use that 1st on Kendall Wright who turns out to be the next Steve Smith or Mike Wallace? With 5 high picks like that at least one of those guys are bound to be a great player if not bordering on "elite" as well.
A lot of what if's there. What if somebody trades up past us for RG111 and some other team offers higher than the #16 pick in the draft for Flynn. We are left in the dust with no future.
Holding my breath and doing a lot of praying.
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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my point was that there is a decent chance that out of all those picks the Browns end up with an elite player as well plus other starters on top of it.
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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Not to mention, the package of picks/players the Jets gave the Browns was complete garbage and not worth the draft slot.
I remember punching something when I saw what we got...
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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my point was that there is a decent chance that out of all those picks the Browns end up with an elite player as well plus other starters on top of it.
The main rebuttal of this point is that Julio Jones was pretty much a sure thing elite player. And he's proven that this year. So you traded a sure thing for a bunch of "chances."

There's no right answer here and I think it's possible/probable that the trade ends up being good for both teams long-term. I don't get why every trade needs to have a winner and a loser and why everyone needs to predict it with some sort of determinist certainty. When dealing with future draft picks, it's all subjective judging the trade at the time, and there's no reason to declare a winner until ALL the dust has settled (if even then).

I'd rather choose to view the trade from each team's perspectives, try to understand what they wanted to do, and judge it from there. So while I think it was a bad move to pass on a player like Jones for a team starving for playmaking offensive talent, I understand why the Browns did it and hope it works out for them.

From Atlanta's side, nothing they could have gotten with those picks will make the impact that Julio will/has/will next year (playoffs both years very possible). *Unless they drafted/draft absolutely perfectly with all of those picks which A) has never happened in history and B) wouldn't allow them to reap ALL the benefits from those picks (remember, in the dance right now), until years down the road (this is a now team).
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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If Atlanta lose this weekend to the NY Giants, the Browns will be picking either 22nd (If Denver win) or 23rd (If Denver lose) with the Falcons pick. Looking at the value chart, which not everybody likes but I'll use it as a guide, the #2 pick is worth 2,600 pts, the Browns #4 pick (1,800 pts) with #22 and #23 worth 780 and 760 pts respectively.

The Rams will almost certainly be listening to offers from teams willing to trade up for RG3 and the Browns have the ammo to make such a move while also allowing the Rams to stay in the Top 4. St Louis could trade down to #4 where they would still grab an elite prospect, pick up another 1st rd pick in the low 20s and the Browns would then grab Griffin as their QB of the future without having to give up any 2013 draft picks. On the draft chart it would be 2,600 pts v 2,580/60 so the Browns could throw in a 5th rd as well to even things up.

So in effect, over the 2011 and 2012 drafts, the Browns would then have spent the equivalent of 4th and 6th overall picks for RG3, Phil Taylor, Greg Little, Owen Marecic and a 2012 4th rd pick. Of course if there is a bidding war for Griffin with a team known to spend like Washington (6th overall), the Browns may have to spend more than that.

Just a few days ago Browns coach Pat Shurmur acknowledged that he's already watched tape of the 2011 Heisman Trophy winner. "I’ve watched him," Shurmur said. "[He’s a] tremendous talent, good player." Asked if Griffin could fit into Cleveland's West Coast offense, Shurmur replied "Good players fit in every offense."

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Old 01-03-2012, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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Mark Sanchez sucks. Donkey balls.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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+10 million, I couldn't + this enough times
Can you even + someone? Your neg rep is pretty terrible..
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:22 AM    (permalink
keylime_5
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The main rebuttal of this point is that Julio Jones was pretty much a sure thing elite player. And he's proven that this year. So you traded a sure thing for a bunch of "chances."

There's no right answer here and I think it's possible/probable that the trade ends up being good for both teams long-term. I don't get why every trade needs to have a winner and a loser and why everyone needs to predict it with some sort of determinist certainty. When dealing with future draft picks, it's all subjective judging the trade at the time, and there's no reason to declare a winner until ALL the dust has settled (if even then).

I'd rather choose to view the trade from each team's perspectives, try to understand what they wanted to do, and judge it from there. So while I think it was a bad move to pass on a player like Jones for a team starving for playmaking offensive talent, I understand why the Browns did it and hope it works out for them.

From Atlanta's side, nothing they could have gotten with those picks will make the impact that Julio will/has/will next year (playoffs both years very possible). *Unless they drafted/draft absolutely perfectly with all of those picks which A) has never happened in history and B) wouldn't allow them to reap ALL the benefits from those picks (remember, in the dance right now), until years down the road (this is a now team).
they didn't necesarily trade a sure thing for a bunch of chances, that's a very black & white way to put it. There is gray area....it's more like they traded a sure thing elite for several guys who were surefire good starters with the potential to be more. It'll make more sense after this year's draft.

Agree on viewing it from both sides. Browns needed talent in numbers and quality starters across the team. The Falcons needed an elite playmaker to put them over the top after being the NFC #1 seed the year before. It made sense for both teams.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:27 AM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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I don't believe there is such a thing as a "sure fire elite player." Literally everything in the draft is subject to at least some risk. The "safest player in the draft" is not-infrequently a bust, and the "most pro ready QB" frequently can't play in the pros at all.

Nothing about the draft should be phrased in the context of surety, and even speaking in terms of probabilities is pushing it. Better to speak in terms of "chances" e.g. "we think he has a chance to be an elite player."

That being said, Julio Jones is not yet an elite player, nor is there any guarantee that he will ever get there. (For a rookie wide receiver, he is very good, however.)

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Old 01-04-2012, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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yeah, there's not really any sure things (except aaron curry apparently). we're being relative here. just what guys are expected to be at the next level realistically.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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Can you even + someone? Your neg rep is pretty terrible..


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Old 01-04-2012, 08:51 AM    (permalink
bucfan12
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As much as I didn't like that Atlanta gave that much up for Julio, it has paid off big time. I still think they have to be more of a run first team to be effective in the passing game, but no doubt, that passing offense has improved tremendously this year.

As much as I dislike the Falcons, I think they hit it big with Julio and have built a strong team overall. I think next year, with a full off-season for Matt Ryan to work with his weapons, will be the year they make a Super Bowl run.
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