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Old 06-25-2011, 02:01 PM    (permalink
Halsey
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The Falcons can get a DE in free agency. Seems like Draft fans often think the Draft is the only way to address needs.
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Old 06-25-2011, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by roscoesdad27 View Post

4) Free agency has very few, if any, of the kind of impact r.e. you will need and theres lots of competition for the scraps that are available.
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
The Falcons can get a DE in free agency. Seems like Draft fans often think the Draft is the only way to address needs.


The best options in FA are Ray Edwards and Charles Johnson both of which are LE's. Abraham's time is almost up and we still don't have a replacement for him. He is 33 years old and what do we currently have behind him right now? Sidbury who has yet to crack the field and show any signs of actually developing into a half decent player (yet Falcons fans think he will automatically be a beast because TD drafted him), Chauncey Davis?? Cliff Matthews?? Adding a DE in free agency this year would relegate Biermann to the bench and we are still stuck with the problem of finding Abraham's replacement.

Also what's stopping us from signing a #2 WR in FA and drafting a DE in the first? You realize what you said goes both ways right and it's not really a point. If we are trading that much to move up I'd rather it be for an impact position like DE and not a #2 WR.
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Old 06-25-2011, 02:59 PM    (permalink
Halsey
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So Falcons's fans are wrong to think a guy Dimitroff drafted will develop, so the Falcons would be better off had Dimitroff drafted another DE? Have you considered that perhaps the Falcons weren't thrilled with the DE crop and felt Julio Jones was a significantly better talent than any DE in the entire draft?

Also you point out that Abraham is 33. Roddy White will be 30 this year. The problem of replacing White in a couple of years is now likely solved.

Also, #2 WR is an impact position. It's a passing league. Are you suggesting guys like Donald Driver and Hines Ward don't make an impact?
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Old 06-25-2011, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Have you considered that perhaps the Falcons weren't thrilled with the DE crop and felt Julio Jones was a significantly better talent than any DE in the entire draft?
This was the best DE class in multiple decades, and that is not hyperbole.

If the Falcons weren't thrilled, they need to get out of the football business.
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Old 06-25-2011, 07:35 PM    (permalink
Halsey
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This was the best DE class in multiple decades, and that is not hyperbole.
And Julio was drafted ahead of all of them. The Falcons weren't going to draft the whole class of DEs. They could have only taken one and they didn't like any one of them that much, obviously.
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Old 06-25-2011, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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This was the best DE class in multiple decades, and that is not hyperbole.

If the Falcons weren't thrilled, they need to get out of the football business.
Name one pass rusher who would of been a good value pick at 27.
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Old 06-25-2011, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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Opinion: Teh best class of DEs in decadezzz!

Fact: One DE drafted in the top 10

lol.
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Old 06-25-2011, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Name one pass rusher who would of been a good value pick at 27.
How about I name a DE, a WR, a TE, and an OL? Those are what ATL really passed on for Julio, after all.

27. Brooks Reed or even Cameron Heyward (yeah, he's made for a 3-4, but he'd be fine in a 4-3)
59. Greg Little or Leonard Hankerson
124. DeMarcus Love
2012: Best available replacement for Tony G. Or trade this pick for something like Greg Olsen/Tony Scheffler + a 2011 third rounder or whatever.

or trade up and take Ryan Kerrigan, keeping next year's draft intact.

Heck, I'd have even used the first on Bowers and kept the other picks before doing this deal.

or even just give up all those same picks for Greg Jennings/Larry Fitzgerald. Or give up one first for Vincent Jackson/Brandon Marshall. It's dumb to use all those picks on a wideout, even if he's proven, but it'd be better than Julio, who may or may not take 1-4 years to break out, and who may or may not be a bust.

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Fact: One DE drafted in the top 10
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/non+sequitur

I'd have thought that by now, you'd have finally looked it up. You've been called on it enough.

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Old 06-25-2011, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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or even just give up all those same picks for Greg Jennings/Larry Fitzgerald. Or give up one first for Vincent Jackson/Brandon Marshall. It's dumb to use all those picks on a wideout, even if he's proven, but it'd be better than Julio, who may or may not take 1-4 years to break out, and who may or may not be a bust.
You could also give up no picks and sign Sidney Rice as a free agent.

Atlanta's a lot scarier with Sidney Rice, Cameron Heyward, Greg Little, and a first round pick in 2012 than they are currently.
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Old 06-25-2011, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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non sequitur (noun) A term thrown out by people on the SWDC message boards when they can't argue with Halsey's point.

Oh, and based on what I'm hearing about Greg Little's involvement with the trouble at UNC, there's a good chance he wasn't on the Falcons' Draft board. Besides, if he was so close to Jones as a prospect, as many people seem to think, why did he last till pick 59?

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...ts-at-UNC.html
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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Actually, I believe "non sequitur" is the name of an old wooden ship used in the Civil War era.
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:57 PM    (permalink
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you're thinking of the CSS Virginia.
Damn it, I'm always mixing the two up!
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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This was the best DE class in multiple decades, and that is not hyperbole.

If the Falcons weren't thrilled, they need to get out of the football business.
The Falcons correctly predicted that their top 7 DEs would be gone by 27, which is why they decided to trade up to 6. (This after exploring options to move into the teens) And they most likely tried to move up for Von Miller FWIW. (I don't think they tried to trade up to #2 for Green/JJ)

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How about I name a DE, a WR, a TE, and an OL? Those are what ATL really passed on for Julio, after all.

27. Brooks Reed or even Cameron Heyward (yeah, he's made for a 3-4, but he'd be fine in a 4-3)
59. Greg Little or Leonard Hankerson
124. DeMarcus Love
2012: Best available replacement for Tony G. Or trade this pick for something like Greg Olsen/Tony Scheffler + a 2011 third rounder or whatever.

or trade up and take Ryan Kerrigan, keeping next year's draft intact.

Heck, I'd have even used the first on Bowers and kept the other picks before doing this deal.

or even just give up all those same picks for Greg Jennings/Larry Fitzgerald. Or give up one first for Vincent Jackson/Brandon Marshall. It's dumb to use all those picks on a wideout, even if he's proven, but it'd be better than Julio, who may or may not take 1-4 years to break out, and who may or may not be a bust.
The Falcons would have picked Gabe Carimi if they stood at 27. And picking Bowers just would have been incredibly dumb, so let that one go.

Dimitroff said the WRs in the league he would have done this deal for would never be traded by their respective teams.

As far as making a deal for VJax/Marshall, you're right. They come with no other concerns. That trade would be based solely on talent. Except for the large contracts as compared to whatever the wage scale gives #6, the off the field baggage this organization has avoided, and the fact that if Julio works out like they think he will, it assures Matt a #1 target for his entire career.

Whether Julio turns out like they think he will is what the deal hinges upon, obviously. If they are right, the trade is more than fine. If they aren't, obviously it sucks. It's a helluva risk, but I applaud them for being aggressive and seeking out someone they feel is an impact player as opposed to settling.
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Old 06-26-2011, 06:58 AM    (permalink
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Atlanta isnt a wr away from getting over the 48-24 GB hump. That FACT parlayed with a dismal d.e. free agency market, that is still yet to be underway, and an overall young team led by a young q.b. makes this a desperate trade. Its not about Julio vs. Reed, Bowers, Little etc....its about timing.

put it like this

My Ravens are superbowl contenders and was also in need of a w.r. to help us get over the hump and we actually are in a "window of opportunity" closing situation. As much as I love Julio that woulda also been a bad trade but atleast we have the "window of opportunity is closing" thing to semi justify it.

The Browns on the other hand come out golden which will be further emphasised in next years first round where I have them picking up uber talented USC r.e. Nick Perry with YOUR pick while your in dire need of a r.e. . The good news for Falcons fans is that pick is made at selection 30 meaning I have you guys making it further than last year. The bad news is you have to play the pack in GB and you did next to nothing in trying to slow down the guy who put up astronomical numbers and propelled himself into the top tier of NFL qb's pretty mudh in that game.
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:49 AM    (permalink
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Atlanta isnt a wr away from getting over the 48-24 GB hump. That FACT parlayed with a dismal d.e. free agency market, that is still yet to be underway, and an overall young team led by a young q.b. makes this a desperate trade. Its not about Julio vs. Reed, Bowers, Little etc....its about timing.
No, the FACT is, we had no chance at coming back at any point in that game. Our offense was entirely dependent on controlling the clock. That was the only way we could beat a team (how we beat GB in the regular season, along with a host of other teams). While we were very successful with this, the GB proved we seriously lacked an explosive element. Turner is declining, and Roddy can only do so much with constant help being rolled over to him, and no one else being a threat to make a play. We were severely lacking explosiveness and thus we made the move for Julio.

And you (or anyone else for that matter) have very little idea of what Free Agency is going to even look like, so I'm not sure how you can declare the class "dismal".


As far as the timing goes, I'll let the guy who gave the approval of the deal, and the guy who made the deal explain it.

Quote:
“This move here was not a move for us to make a statement that we were one player away,” Dimitroff said. “That’s not what we are saying here. We are not one player away from anything. This is a player that is going to add to our explosiveness.”
Quote:
“We are about trying to win now and trying to win for the future,” Blank said. “That’s sustainable winning. We’ve done that for three years in a row, and we have to keep going. We need playmakers and difference-makers. Guys that are special. He’s a special athlete, and he’s a special player.”
Quote:
"Though the compensation was significant, we felt it was in the best interest of the organization and Matt Ryan and our progressing offense that we make a bold and aggressive move to go up and get another playmaker that would complement Roddy White and the rest of our receiver corps," Dimitroff said.
Quote:
"Because I truly don't believe any one player can make or break a team," he said. "We all have to come together. Everything has to be in the proper alignment for us to be an upper-tier championship-caliber team."
Doesn't really sound like a hasty, panic move decision, but rather one that in conjunction with the pieces we have already assembled and will add to in FA, will give us what we feel is the best opportunity to be a successful football team.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:27 AM    (permalink
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Im sure Julio will make the team better and will even change them from a ball control offense to a more pass first offense, that still wont be enough to beat the pack who has a top notch defense to go along with their offense. So basically yea I think they will improve next season and advance a round further. Mission accomplished if thats your goal but just know that next year is your best chance, which sucks for a young qb, cause missing that first rounder will HURT in the near future.

I agree Roddy White needs a better compliment to take pressure off but you dont have to make the trade of an aging team on the cusp to do it! Greg Little woulda been just as good for that role AND you coulda took a shot at Brooks Reed last year and/or Nick Perry this year or a top caliber cb from 2012 like Dennard or Minnifield if Reed woulda panned out.

B. Reed, G. Little and A. Dennard >>> just Julio....lol unless your satisfied for being slightly better for just 1 yea.
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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Im sure Julio will make the team better and will even change them from a ball control offense to a more pass first offense, that still wont be enough to beat the pack who has a top notch defense to go along with their offense. So basically yea I think they will improve next season and advance a round further. Mission accomplished if thats your goal but just know that next year is your best chance, which sucks for a young qb, cause missing that first rounder will HURT in the near future.

I agree Roddy White needs a better compliment to take pressure off but you dont have to make the trade of an aging team on the cusp to do it! Greg Little woulda been just as good for that role AND you coulda took a shot at Brooks Reed last year and/or Nick Perry this year or a top caliber cb from 2012 like Dennard or Minnifield if Reed woulda panned out.

B. Reed, G. Little and A. Dennard >>> just Julio....lol unless your satisfied for being slightly better for just 1 yea.
I'm not really sure how you can see the future and know how the season is going to turn out for us. Just because the Packers crushed us doesn't mean we are doomed to repeat that fate.

I like Greg Little a good deal, but
a. We probably wouldn't have drafted him anyway due to off the field concerns.
b. There's a reason in the draft process that he was viewed as a 2nd round player and Julio was widely held as a top 10 prospect. That's not to say Greg Little can't wind up being better, but to say that he's just as good at this point is silly.


And thinking who we could get next year is an exercise in futility due to how volatile the draft process is. There are also more ways than draft picks to improve your team. Dimitroff has already stated that a part of the reasoning behind the move was faith in our how we've developed our depth and their ability to step into more prominent roles, and of course, there is free agency.
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Old 06-26-2011, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, not buying the 'Greg Little is just as good as Julio' talk. Julio is faster, more mature, more productive and better coached in college than Little.
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Old 06-26-2011, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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I don't question Julio's talent at all. I think he's going to be a beast, I was a big Julio fan. Especially with White opposite of him.

I just think it's way too steep of a price to pay for a WR when you have other pressing needs.

They still need pass rushers, and players in that secondary, a quick explosive slot WR and a future TE. They made a win now move when in my opinion, they are not in position to make such a move.

They're a good team. But I don't think this move gets them over the hump this year, and hurts them in the long term bc they lost so many chips in the process.

And that division is intense, that won't do them any favors either.
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Old 06-26-2011, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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Atlanta's offense seemed too conservative. They never really tried opening up the passing game calling for more down the field shots. Their game was to pound the rock and call for short to mid route pass plays with the occasional shot down the field. Roddy White was a playmaker last year.

Julio won't make the offense better unless they open up the offense.
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Old 06-26-2011, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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I can't believe this is still going.
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Old 06-26-2011, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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At risk of getting sucked back into this, for me, the argument isn't Greg Little > Julio Jones, or even Little =/= Jones. It's that a 2011 1st RDer + Greg Little + 2012 1st RD'er + 2011 4th RD'er + 2012 4th RD'er > Jones.

Plus, the talent gap is diminished between the two based on the positional need and value. The player will be the #2 WR (at least at first), and not the go-to guy who is Roddy White. That lowers the ceiling, especially since I don't think the Falcons will be a heavy pass team regardless of Jones. They have a great back in Turner and I don't think that type of offense suits Matt Ryan, who is already a low percentage passer and has lapses in his decision making. I don't think there's a single person who believes Little is a better prospect than Jones. But that is through the vein of projecting a #1 WR (which both are expected to be in time, which is hard to project considering the Browns don't have a WR worth a damn in front of Little and Roddy White is entering prime at a position that has a long lifespan). Through the vein of a #2 WR, less will be required and both have the ability to fulfill that requirement, yet one was immensely cheaper than the other.

I think what really has people disliking this trade is the waste. There is guaranteed waste in this, whether with the trade, Julio, or the current personnel. You make a blockbuster trade to pick a guy for the #2 WR spot, with the rationale that he might develop into a #1 WR when the current go-to WR diminishes. The plan is to put him in at #2 WR, let him develop and contribute for the likely 4 seasons for White to diminish, and then Jones transitions seemlessly into the go-to role for Matt Ryan. What happens if Julio lives up to his talent? Awesome, so how do you maximize both Jones, White, and Michael Turner for the years White/Turner are in their primes? It probably won't happen. One guy's talent will be wasted. And if it's Julio's, he'll be labeled a bust because you don't make this trade and take a guy that high to make him second (or 3rd) fiddle until he's entering his 2nd contract. Julio Jones doesn't live up to his talent? He'll be labeled a bust and the Falcons will have wasted all those picks they traded to get him. If Julio develops into a good #2 but can't make it at #1, he'll be labeled a bust and the Falcons would have wasted all those picks.

If there's a negative coming out of a trade when the player works out, how can I objectively call it a good trade? For me, I'm not going to label this a good or bad thing based on what Julio Jones develops into. It's going to be if the Falcons win. This trade is only good if the wins gained by having all these players at their disposal allows for more wins. If they lose, I don't care if Matt Ryan has the best WR tandem in the league or has an elite option for the rest of his career - the team got worse, which is the problem. And for most people to eventually approve of this, Julio will have to beast and the Falcons will have to win.
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Old 06-26-2011, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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I don't question Julio's talent at all. I think he's going to be a beast, I was a big Julio fan. Especially with White opposite of him.

I just think it's way too steep of a price to pay for a WR when you have other pressing needs.

They still need pass rushers, and players in that secondary, a quick explosive slot WR and a future TE. They made a win now move when in my opinion, they are not in position to make such a move.

They're a good team. But I don't think this move gets them over the hump this year, and hurts them in the long term bc they lost so many chips in the process.

And that division is intense, that won't do them any favors either.
I agree the price was too steep.

I think the move was made in part on counting on some of the guys we have/can get in Free Agency. Our needs really aren't that great. That's not to say there aren't more than a few places that can be improved on, but the only thing that's a true necessity would be another pass rusher. Our secondary just lacks depth, but we have all of the starters filled with at least solid players. Slot WR necessity is mitigated by getting Jones, but Harry Douglas still deserves one more year, fully recovered. And future TE is more of a luxury, and something that can be drafted next year.

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Atlanta's offense seemed too conservative. They never really tried opening up the passing game calling for more down the field shots. Their game was to pound the rock and call for short to mid route pass plays with the occasional shot down the field. Roddy White was a playmaker last year.

Julio won't make the offense better unless they open up the offense.
Well, you'd certainly have to hope that finally having someone with some explosive ability other than Roddy would influence Mularkey to make some changes. Otherwise, ugh.
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Old 06-26-2011, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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At risk of getting sucked back into this, for me, the argument isn't Greg Little > Julio Jones, or even Little =/= Jones. It's that a 2011 1st RDer + Greg Little + 2012 1st RD'er + 2011 4th RD'er + 2012 4th RD'er > Jones.

Plus, the talent gap is diminished between the two based on the positional need and value. The player will be the #2 WR (at least at first), and not the go-to guy who is Roddy White. That lowers the ceiling, especially since I don't think the Falcons will be a heavy pass team regardless of Jones. They have a great back in Turner and I don't think that type of offense suits Matt Ryan, who is already a low percentage passer and has lapses in his decision making. I don't think there's a single person who believes Little is a better prospect than Jones. But that is through the vein of projecting a #1 WR (which both are expected to be in time, which is hard to project considering the Browns don't have a WR worth a damn in front of Little and Roddy White is entering prime at a position that has a long lifespan). Through the vein of a #2 WR, less will be required and both have the ability to fulfill that requirement, yet one was immensely cheaper than the other.
Matt Ryan was ranked 9th in the league in terms of attempts/game in 2010, and this is while he was a 3rd year QB with a running game that was ranked 5th in attempts/game. As this league continues to emphasize the passing game and Michael Turner takes more punishment, I don't see why the Falcons and their growing franchise QB can't become a pass heavy team. I don't think the argument that "Matt Ryan is a low percentage passer" (what does that even mean? Ryan's comp. % in his first 3 years is 60.7. Peyton Manning: 61.1, Drew Brees: 61.3, Tom Brady: 61.9. I guess those offenses aren't going to become pass-orien-oh wait...) or that he has lapses in decision making (damn, a 3rd year QB is still having lapses in decision making? instead of throwing an interception every 42 passes, it should be 100!).

And yes, Little is the much more cheaper option as a #2 WR, and yes, they both reach the baseline ability level of being a good WR 2, but how are you going to leave it at that? Both will meet the requirement, but if one WR, due to his excess talent and work ethic, is able to beat coverages more often than the other, why doesn't be get props for that? Assuming a scenario where both Jones or Little are the Falcon's #2 WR, my guess is that Jones beats coverages more often, becomes more of a reliable option for Ryan, and opens up the big play ability between him and White more consistently. The last reasoning is exactly why the Falcons traded the farm for a WR (that and defenses have to be honest against Turner).

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I think what really has people disliking this trade is the waste. There is guaranteed waste in this, whether with the trade, Julio, or the current personnel. You make a blockbuster trade to pick a guy for the #2 WR spot, with the rationale that he might develop into a #1 WR when the current go-to WR diminishes. The plan is to put him in at #2 WR, let him develop and contribute for the likely 4 seasons for White to diminish, and then Jones transitions seemlessly into the go-to role for Matt Ryan. What happens if Julio lives up to his talent? Awesome, so how do you maximize both Jones, White, and Michael Turner for the years White/Turner are in their primes? It probably won't happen. One guy's talent will be wasted. And if it's Julio's, he'll be labeled a bust because you don't make this trade and take a guy that high to make him second (or 3rd) fiddle until he's entering his 2nd contract. Julio Jones doesn't live up to his talent? He'll be labeled a bust and the Falcons will have wasted all those picks they traded to get him. If Julio develops into a good #2 but can't make it at #1, he'll be labeled a bust and the Falcons would have wasted all those picks.
Wasting talent is exactly what won't happen - I guess it is a matter of how you look at it. White is a perfectly capable #1 for the next 2-3 years while Jones won't be ready to be a #1 for the next 2-3 years (or a little more). Julio Jones was brought in to take the heat off Roddy White and make defenses honest against the run - if he can stretch the defense more consistently than slow-as-molasses Michael Jenkins, he is already doing his part in oiling up the machine that is the Falcons' offense. I don't see how talent is getting wasted if White, Turner, and Jones are all starters and on the field at once. On every given pass play, they BOTH have a chance to beat their coverage and Matt Ryan has more options for making decisions. Of course, Roddy between the ages of 30-33 will get more targets than Jones between the ages of 22-25, but I don't consider that talent wasting - I think you do?

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If there's a negative coming out of a trade when the player works out, how can I objectively call it a good trade? For me, I'm not going to label this a good or bad thing based on what Julio Jones develops into. It's going to be if the Falcons win. This trade is only good if the wins gained by having all these players at their disposal allows for more wins. If they lose, I don't care if Matt Ryan has the best WR tandem in the league or has an elite option for the rest of his career - the team got worse, which is the problem. And for most people to eventually approve of this, Julio will have to beast and the Falcons will have to win.
Exactly. It's nice to finally agree on something. Julio Jones' impact on this team is more than the number of catches and yards he gains. Matt Ryan, Michael Turner, and Roddy White all had career lows in YPA and YPC (6.5, 4.1, and 12.1) and that is what caused the offense to sputter out. Some of the non-explosiveness was on purpose to keep the weak Falcon's defense off the field, but explosive plays are needed to if the Falcons are to fall behind more than 14 points. The immediate returns of this trade are going to be measured through the increase in the star trio's efficiency averages; Jones can gain anywhere between 300-900 yards, but if the trio's YPA and YPC rises noticeably to 7.0, 4.5, and 14.0, I will consider the Jones' trade a success. That is how the success of this trade is to be measured because that is why the trade happened. I know that next season people will be calling the Julio Jones trade a bust because he didn't put up 850 yards with 8 TDs in his rookie season, but remember to check out the rest of the team's success.
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Old 06-26-2011, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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And Julio was drafted ahead of all of them. The Falcons weren't going to draft the whole class of DEs. They could have only taken one and they didn't like any one of them that much, obviously.
How does Julio going ahead of those ends have any relevance?

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Opinion: Teh best class of DEs in decadezzz!

Fact: One DE drafted in the top 10

lol.
Oh yeah, only players in the top 10 are good.

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Yeah, not buying the 'Greg Little is just as good as Julio' talk. Julio is faster, more mature, more productive and better coached in college than Little.
Not one person said this in the entire thread. You really are too dumb to argue with.

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"Because I truly don't believe any one player can make or break a team," he said. "We all have to come together. Everything has to be in the proper alignment for us to be an upper-tier championship-caliber team."
Based on the fact he traded 5 players for 1, I don't really know what to make of this quote.
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