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Old 08-07-2011, 12:11 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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Originally Posted by Thecollegedropout View Post
Kind of sad to steal Jet players like Woodhead and Ellis just as a means to spite the Jets but I digress. What happened to using the Pats million of draft picks to develop starters/rotational players?

Lost a lot of respect for Ellis by joining the Pats. He is a decent situational DE at this point, the game vs the Pats was his lone breakout game. Wilkerson brings more at this point outside of experience.
Yeah because the Jets have never taken anybody from the Patriots before. (Parcells, Martin, Law) Even more recently they've taken studs like Kevin O'Connell.

Love the Ellis pickup. He'll be a very useful pickup, and I've always liked the guy. Plus a little more leadership at D-line never hurts especially with Haynesworth and all the young guys.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:23 PM    (permalink
Thecollegedropout
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Yeah because the Jets have never taken anybody from the Patriots before. (Parcells, Martin, Law) Even more recently they've taken studs like Kevin O'Connell.

Love the Ellis pickup. He'll be a very useful pickup, and I've always liked the guy. Plus a little more leadership at D-line never hurts especially with Haynesworth and all the young guys.
Jets traded for O'Connell when he was a Lion...and signed Ty Law on more than one occasion, even once after he became a Chief(Since Revis was our franchise player, Law was Revis' mentor as a kid)

Parcells was a Giant before a Patriot and he has been around with plenty of teams throughout his NFL tenure. He had been a proven commodity at coach and came in for the Jets not too long after their 1-15 debacle season led by Rich Kotite.

The last 2 Pats coaches in Carroll and Belichick were coming over from the Jets...(Carroll may have been the 49ers Def. Coordinator for 2 years though in between his awful Jets and Pats reign at HC)

Mangini I'll give you though but I think Woody was biting more on the fact that he was Belichick's disciple.

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Old 08-07-2011, 12:34 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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Jets traded for O'Connell when he was a Lion...and signed Ty Law on more than one occasion, even once after he became a Chief(Since Law was our franchise player, Darrelle Revis' mentor as a kid)

Parcells was a Giant before a Patriot and he has been around with plenty of teams throughout his NFL tenure. He had been a proven commodity at coach and came in for the Jets not too long after their 1-15 debacle season led by Rich Kotite.

The last 2 Pats coaches in Carroll and Belichick were coming over from the Jets...

Mangini I'll give you though but I think Woody was biting more on the fact that he was Belichick's disciple.

So it's somehow sad when the Patriots sign Jets players, but it's justified in every case when the Jets do it. Kevin O'Connell is a garbage QB, yet you kept him on your roster. The Pats needed a 3rd down runningback even before the Faulk injury because they had traded Maroney and had an open roster spot. Lawfirm, Morris, and Taylor aren't particularly good receivers so the Pats needed another RB who could catch and it worked out splendidly.

Ellis is still a pretty good player at this point in his career, and most Jet fans wanted him back. The Pats have pretty good depth in terms of penetrating DT's (Pryor. Haynesworth, Wright), but still needed someone who they can rely on in their base 3-4 scheme. There is no lock that Wilkerson will be better for the Jets than Ellis, and he isn't much of a rusher anyways. As it stands the Jets have very poor D-line depth and could certainly use Ellis. Even at his advanced age he's still a better rusher than Devito.

I think both teams are guilty of the gamesmanship of signing players from their rivals, but calling it sad when the other team signs your players is like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:45 PM    (permalink
Thecollegedropout
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So it's somehow sad when the Patriots sign Jets players, but it's justified in every case when the Jets do it. Kevin O'Connell is a garbage QB, yet you kept him on your roster. The Pats needed a 3rd down runningback even before the Faulk injury because they had traded Maroney and had an open roster spot. Lawfirm, Morris, and Taylor aren't particularly good receivers so the Pats needed another RB who could catch and it worked out splendidly.

Ellis is still a pretty good player at this point in his career, and most Jet fans wanted him back. The Pats have pretty good depth in terms of penetrating DT's (Pryor. Haynesworth, Wright), but still needed someone who they can rely on in their base 3-4 scheme. There is no lock that Wilkerson will be better for the Jets than Ellis, and he isn't much of a rusher anyways. As it stands the Jets have very poor D-line depth and could certainly use Ellis. Even at his advanced age he's still a better rusher than Devito.

I think both teams are guilty of the gamesmanship of signing players from their rivals, but calling it sad when the other team signs your players is like the pot calling the kettle black.
O Connell was in competition with crap like Clemens, Ainge and Brunell. Dude was a Pat for 1 year. Now if you want to say Miami took O'Connell due to his ties as a Jet for the past 3 years, then that'd be a better comparison
(Which I don't have a problem with since the Dolphins QB is really wide open and not many teams would sign him)

Oh I am not saying Woodhead wasn't a need but I do think he was going to be strictly used more as a guy to give Belichick a mindset of Schottenheimer's offense for week 2 until Woodhead showed he can ball in practice for NE.

He was wanted back by the Jets because of his tenure with the team and because the Jets thought he could comeback on a cheap 1 year deal. Wilkerson has fresher legs and while he hasn't played a down yet and could be Gholston II, he has already been given a starting role at DE by one of the best defensive minds in the game today, meaning that Wilkerson might have done something right in Rex's eyes.

DeVito is the better player than Ellis, especially at run stopping(Ellis wasn't bad but DeVito is far better). Ellis has the better step when it comes to 1 on 1 vs an lineman but in a blitz package/overload, either one can get the job done as neither are standouts at pass rushing so no real difference there.

And I said its smart on the Pats end......I am not trying to hound you guys for doing it. Just calling it like it is in that despite having so many draft picks, that the Pats contend because of their flyer moves of stealing other teams players as FAs. Its a different philosophy than the Jets trading their picks in the draft for proven vets(Cromartie, Edwards, Holmes, Jenkins, T. Jones)...even though the Pats finally did it this year with 85 and Fat Albert.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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To be fair, NOBODY thought Woodhead would contribute the way he did and the fact he was picked up after week 1 last year and right before Pats/Jets I would lead you to think he would be nothing more a guy to try and pick the brain under. I don't seriously think Belichick knew Woodhead would come on the way he did, he gave nobody any indication of doing it when as a Jet. Shoot Woodhead went undrafted......
I had high expectations for Woodhead. A lot of people around these parts did, even. Thought he would be able to fill the Kevin Faulk niche perfectly. Maybe not quite as well as he did, but it was billed as a good signing in the Patriots team forum and not a "pick his brain" type thing. It's not like Woodhead was/is some skinny white kid who ran 4.6. He didn't miss making your roster by a whole hell of a lot, everyone with HBO can tell you that much. It wasn't entirely unreasonable to expect him to go on and produce for someone. I thought he would have been a great fit for the Broncos or Rams last year as well.

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Ellis doesn't have the burst anymore at this point but he can play the role of being an decent run stopper. Outside of the Pats game, a large part as to why the Jets could not get to the pass rusher(Outside of Calvin Pace underachieving, Vernon Gholston showing no heart and Bryan Thomas being Bryan Thomas) was because of Ellis lackluster play at times. Jason Taylor did more last year than Ellis.....it was just Ellis was money vs the Patriots in the playoffs last season in his only real good game.

I do think the Ellis move was a 1-Up by Belichick on Rex Ryan but its all fair game since the Jets didn't want to give Shaun a rewarding deal as a veteran. Mind games is what the Pats/Jets rivalry is all about and its no different here.
...that's all well and good, but he's a very good fit in our scheme right now, even if he's just an average guy. He might not be what he once was, but if you look at our rotation as it's presently constituted, you can see he's an upgrade and brings something to the table that could be valuable to us.

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And the draft pick mention was just all about how the Pats could continue to miss on alot of their draft picks and have to resort to these signings from other teams to bring in their talent.
Cool. So does everyone else. No one is trying at all to paint it any differently. You even went out of your way with that comment to prove it's not about "spiting the Jets". We could use a player like Ellis.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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I had high expectations for Woodhead. A lot of people around these parts did, even. Thought he would be able to fill the Kevin Faulk niche perfectly. Maybe not quite as well as he did, but it was billed as a good signing in the Patriots team forum and not a "pick his brain" type thing. It's not like Woodhead was/is some skinny white kid who ran 4.6. He didn't miss making your roster by a whole hell of a lot, everyone with HBO can tell you that much. It wasn't entirely unreasonable to expect him to go on and produce for someone. I thought he would have been a great fit for the Broncos or Rams last year as well.
It was a numbers game and Joe McKnight being a better special teams player/recent draft pick got him the 3rd RB spot over Woodhead. I have no problem with Woodhead going elsewhere and making a living and had liked his heart as a Jet. Just the timing of him signing with NE a few days before their encounter with the Jets had to have some meaning of BB wanting to pick his brain for the Jets offensive schemes, since Woodhead played vs the Ravens in week 1.


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...that's all well and good, but he's a very good fit in our scheme right now, even if he's just an average guy. He might not be what he once was, but if you look at our rotation as it's presently constituted, you can see he's an upgrade and brings something to the table that could be valuable to us.
He may be a good fit but as a poster here said before, BB may feel that signing Ellis will hurt the Jets more than anything and as a guy who saw his team lose to the Jets in the playoffs and see them as a legit AFC threat, why would he not try and hurt his rival team in the process by signing a big locker room influence in Ellis?

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Cool. So does everyone else. No one is trying at all to paint it any differently. You even went out of your way with that comment to prove it's not about "spiting the Jets". We could use a player like Ellis.
I don't want to make it look like sour grapes because every team does it in the NFL....just no team gets more love and garner like Belichick and the Pats do as far as their NFL Draft goes. "Belichick does it yet again in the NFL Draft" "The Pats always make the great moves in the draft by trading for future draft picks" "Belichick always finds the right guys for his team doesn't he?". The Jets usually get the "The outcast team" since alot of the team is from guys with either problems or are essentially mercenaries for hire.

That's why I just don't get it....the Pats have built themselves off of signing guys on friendly deals from other teams and often their draft picks never pan out.

EDIT: Going to cool off on the debate only since this is a FA thread rather than a Pats/Jets fans war. Don't want to take the thread too off course.

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Old 08-07-2011, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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lol Sounds to me like you're over thinking this too much...letting your inner Jets fan get the best of you
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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Yeah I'm not trying to start anything, but I think these moves have a lot less to do with the Jets than anything else. Woodhead was signed on a Saturday so it's not like the Pats had a ton of time to pick his brain before the game. Ellis is a guy who would make pretty much any team's 53 man roster and will in no uncertain terms contribute to the Patriots this year. The fact that the Jets could really use him makes it all the better.

There are certainly different philosophies in terms of drafting and free agency, and the pats certainly had their shortcomings drafting players from 2006-2008, but the Pats have one of the deepest rosters in the NFL while the Jets have one of the shallowest. Wilkerson and Kendrick Ellis might be relevations or they might play like rookies, but I think most there is going to be a point in this upcoming season where the Jets miss Ellis.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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I don't want to make it look like sour grapes because every team does it in the NFL....just no team gets more love and garner like Belichick and the Pats do as far as their NFL Draft goes. "Belichick does it yet again in the NFL Draft" "The Pats always make the great moves in the draft by trading for future draft picks" "Belichick always finds the right guys for his team doesn't he?". The Jets usually get the "The outcast team" since alot of the team is from guys with either problems or are essentially mercenaries for hire.

That's why I just don't get it....the Pats have built themselves off of signing guys on friendly deals from other teams and often their draft picks never pan out.
I actually agree with all of this, outside of the sob story about how the Jets are somehow unfairly portrayed as some kind of outcast team.

You guys have garnered just as much praise for making big, bold moves as we have making subtle ones jockeying for draft position. It's just about the kind of people you bring in. The most prominent example of that would be Santonio Holmes. He wasn't exactly the most popular guy nationally after some of the off the field incidents he had. A lot of Steelers fans were justifiably upset that they were losing a player of his caliber and that's a team that has a lot of sway nationally. It was never about not being a massive upgrade for your roster. Everyone could see that he would make you guys a significantly better team on the football field.

Same sort of thing with Braylon Edwards and Antonio Cromartie, although more for Cromartie. You aren't going to win a lot of support nationally for bringing in a dead beat Dad, regardless of how good of a football player they are.

We get a lot of praise for doing that type of thing for a few reason;

-We have an established history of buying low into guys that didn't work out with other teams and having it pay dividends. Woodhead, Moss, Rodney Harrison, Vrabel, and Dillon being the biggest names.

-We generally avoid guys with big time character concerns. That's changed a bit this season with the acquisition of Albert Haynesworth, but generally the guys we've brought in have just had problems in the lockeroom, not legally. The Haynesworth move has actually been a point of contention locally. A lot of people are going to have a hard time rooting for him, even if he does produce big time like some are expecting.

Draft pick wise, it's indisputable we've had a lot of trouble making our picks count over the past few seasons. Most of the Patriots team forum is on suicide watch come April due to how frustrating things have been lately. It's completely annoying that we're called "draft masters" for doing silly things like trading down and drafting Ryan Mallet to be our third string quarterback when we're two wins away from a Super Bowl every year. We've left so much talent on the board lately(you guys have been a beneficiary of that on more than one occasion) that a lot of us are completely perplexed with what we're trying to do at this point.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Thought the Patroits should have traded up to get Robert Quinn once he started to drop at 10+. Even if it meant using the 1st pick in second round, would have been worth it. They needed an elite edge rusher and Quinn could have been it. Very difficult to find an really talented pass rushers.

The 3rd down defense was worst in the league at 47.1, needed to do something about that. Haven't seen any move real move to help that much.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Thought the Patroits should have traded up to get Robert Quinn once he started to drop at 10+. Even if it meant using the 1st pick in second round, would have been worth it. They needed an elite edge rusher and Quinn could have been it. Very difficult to find an really talented pass rushers.

The 3rd down defense was worst in the league at 47.1, needed to do something about that. Haven't seen any move real move to help that much.
Yeah it's kind of perplexing that they didn't do that, especially with the rumored scheme switch to a 4-3 as their base defense. With where they pick every year, and their unwillingness to move up in the draft I have a hard time seeing where they'll pick up a pass rusher.

The 3rd down defense is a huge problem. Thankfully it got better as the year went along, and they started giving up more 3rd and shorts instead of 3rd and longs like they were at the beginning of the year which was infuriating. I think the Patriots are banking on the return of Bodden, and the pass rush to come more from the middle with Haynesworth on 3rd and short situations. Hopefully Dowling or Butler can develop because the Pats had severe problems with slot wide receivers last year. It's still the Achilles heel, but if they can even rush the passer a little bit this has the potential to be a top 5 defense.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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More on Dashon Goldson...

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Greg_A_Bedard Greg A. Bedard

Goldson wanted a huge contract (over 5 yrs, $20 mill) but the 49ers said "Well, bye" and signed Whitner.
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Greg_A_Bedard Greg A. Bedard

Can the Patriots get him on the cheap for one year? With the relationship between Patriots and Rosenhaus, it's certainly possible.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Can any Bengal or Bronco fan tell me anything about Daniel Coats the new TE the Giants signed?
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Looks like your wish came true - Snelling has agreed to a one-year deal with Atlanta.
Yeah, I saw that earlier. Wonder what this means for Jaquizz Rodgers' role. He's been extremely impressive thus far.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I saw that earlier. Wonder what this means for Jaquizz Rodgers' role. He's been extremely impressive thus far.
Does he seem like his career path will be more of a Darren Sproles type of role, or does anyone think he can be a 15-20 carry a week type of guy? It may be hard to tell without seeing him play in games, but he always seemed like a big, hard, tough runner that would have no problem running between the tackles at the next level. He's got incredible balance and vision.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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To be fair, NOBODY thought Woodhead would contribute the way he did and the fact he was picked up after week 1 last year and right before Pats/Jets I would lead you to think he would be nothing more a guy to try and pick the brain under. I don't seriously think Belichick knew Woodhead would come on the way he did, he gave nobody any indication of doing it when as a Jet. Shoot Woodhead went undrafted......
That's easy to say now, that not even Belicheck knew he would be good, or that he only picked him up to pick his brain or whatever. The facts are that he was really good for them, and was a key component for their offense last year. He was much more then just a guy to pick his brain.


You don't have anyone to blame but yourselves for good players you let go. Woodhead is better then McKnight but he didn't cost a draft pick so you opted to go with the guy you spent a pick on.


Everyteam in the league could just pick up bums who had played for division rivals for a week or 2, and let them go. Roster spots are valuable, nobody is just throwing them away because "well he played for the Jets he's got some info". Not gonna act like it never happens, but your naive if you think that's the sole reason the Pats are getting these players.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Jerricho Cotchery is visiting the Steelers today. I have always liked him and hope he signs.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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More on Dashon Goldson...
It sounds like he's expected to be a Patriot soon. Don't have a solid link right now, but I just heard a Boston Globe writer on the radio say that the early word out of camp is that Meriweather is continuing to disappointing and that the team is very unhappy with the safety play overall. As mentioned, we've got a good relationship with Rosenhaus so if he'll take a one year deal to try this thing again in a sellers market, we've got an inside track.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Thought the Patroits should have traded up to get Robert Quinn once he started to drop at 10+. Even if it meant using the 1st pick in second round, would have been worth it. They needed an elite edge rusher and Quinn could have been it. Very difficult to find an really talented pass rushers.

The 3rd down defense was worst in the league at 47.1, needed to do something about that. Haven't seen any move real move to help that much.
I was hoping for a trade up for Quinn but it became obvious after about the 12th pick they weren't going to move up for him.

The thing with Belichick is, he is more of a coverage co ordinator than a pressure guy. He places more value on having top notch guys at the back end than an elite pass rusher. Whether this is a good strategy in today's game is debatable but that's how he goes. It's why they have spent high draft picks recently on McCourty, Butler, Dowling, Wheatley, Merriweather and Chung and also got Bodden in FA. He would prefer to have potentially 6 better than average cover guys than 2 or 3 with an elite pass rusher.

I can only assume that he would prefer that it takes a team 10+ plays and 7+ minutes to score rather than have holes in the secondary to give up quick long scores.

The Pats also had a pretty good red zone defense last year which is part of his thinking.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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That's easy to say now, that not even Belicheck knew he would be good, or that he only picked him up to pick his brain or whatever. The facts are that he was really good for them, and was a key component for their offense last year. He was much more then just a guy to pick his brain.


You don't have anyone to blame but yourselves for good players you let go. Woodhead is better then McKnight but he didn't cost a draft pick so you opted to go with the guy you spent a pick on.


Everyteam in the league could just pick up bums who had played for division rivals for a week or 2, and let them go. Roster spots are valuable, nobody is just throwing them away because "well he played for the Jets he's got some info". Not gonna act like it never happens, but your naive if you think that's the sole reason the Pats are getting these players.
You can't tell me that the Pats didn't ask Woodhead about any specific offensive signals that Schotty likes to call in advance for the game in Week 2. Now its assumption as to if it was a big reason as to why Woodhead was brought in or not but heading into week 2 and not knowing Woodhead would be this good, you have to think that Woodhead's familiarity with the Jets system was a reason he got signed by NE. I mean if the Pats were in love with Woodhead from the start, they would have drafted him in the late rounds.

And it is on the Jets for letting go of Woodhead but McKnight actually projects to be our kick returner along with Kerley moving forward this year so Woodhead would not find a spot...but I give NE more credit for developing Woodhead as he showed nothing as a member of the Jets to make anyone think he can stick in the NFL. Woodhead has always had heart and dedication though which is something that has kept him afloat with NE.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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I actually agree with all of this, outside of the sob story about how the Jets are somehow unfairly portrayed as some kind of outcast team.

You guys have garnered just as much praise for making big, bold moves as we have making subtle ones jockeying for draft position. It's just about the kind of people you bring in. The most prominent example of that would be Santonio Holmes. He wasn't exactly the most popular guy nationally after some of the off the field incidents he had. A lot of Steelers fans were justifiably upset that they were losing a player of his caliber and that's a team that has a lot of sway nationally. It was never about not being a massive upgrade for your roster. Everyone could see that he would make you guys a significantly better team on the football field.

Same sort of thing with Braylon Edwards and Antonio Cromartie, although more for Cromartie. You aren't going to win a lot of support nationally for bringing in a dead beat Dad, regardless of how good of a football player they are.

We get a lot of praise for doing that type of thing for a few reason;

-We have an established history of buying low into guys that didn't work out with other teams and having it pay dividends. Woodhead, Moss, Rodney Harrison, Vrabel, and Dillon being the biggest names.

-We generally avoid guys with big time character concerns. That's changed a bit this season with the acquisition of Albert Haynesworth, but generally the guys we've brought in have just had problems in the lockeroom, not legally. The Haynesworth move has actually been a point of contention locally. A lot of people are going to have a hard time rooting for him, even if he does produce big time like some are expecting.

Draft pick wise, it's indisputable we've had a lot of trouble making our picks count over the past few seasons. Most of the Patriots team forum is on suicide watch come April due to how frustrating things have been lately. It's completely annoying that we're called "draft masters" for doing silly things like trading down and drafting Ryan Mallet to be our third string quarterback when we're two wins away from a Super Bowl every year. We've left so much talent on the board lately(you guys have been a beneficiary of that on more than one occasion) that a lot of us are completely perplexed with what we're trying to do at this point.
The Jets are...but they do get some flack since Rex Ryan really likes the bad guy type of persona and likes to work the "Us against the world" mentality. Belichick despite being caught with the whole spygate scandal has somehow(To his credit) kept his team look like the good guys vs the Jets. Don't know if its because they are much more quiet than NYJ or what not but I do give Belichick credit in this case.

Just two guys to throw out there for character issues that pop off at the top of my head: Brandon Meriweather and Brandon Spikes. Meriweather had plenty of issues with the Hurricanes, including being armed around his campus. He was also trying to assault FIU players on the field with his helmet in a melee. Same with Spikes who tried to gauge a player's eye out in college and has been caught with illegal substances and filming a sex tape in-season.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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You can't tell me that the Pats didn't ask Woodhead about any specific offensive signals that Schotty likes to call in advance for the game in Week 2. Now its assumption as to if it was a big reason as to why Woodhead was brought in or not but heading into week 2 and not knowing Woodhead would be this good, you have to think that Woodhead's familiarity with the Jets system was a reason he got signed by NE. I mean if the Pats were in love with Woodhead from the start, they would have drafted him in the late rounds.
Let's pretend that this did happen. Let's also pretend that the Jets traded for Kevin O'Connell five days after the Patriots waived him and in the same week that the Patriots signed Woodhead. Oh wait, we don't have to pretend that happened, because it actually DID happen! Trying to get information about opposing schemes is something almost everyone in the league does.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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but I think most there is going to be a point in this upcoming season where the Jets miss Ellis.
His leadership is definitely going to be missed and I think that is what the young Pats D will enjoy most with Ellis. He might be a better mentor for some of the young defensive players on the team and it might be his role on the team.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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Does he seem like his career path will be more of a Darren Sproles type of role, or does anyone think he can be a 15-20 carry a week type of guy? It may be hard to tell without seeing him play in games, but he always seemed like a big, hard, tough runner that would have no problem running between the tackles at the next level. He's got incredible balance and vision.
I'd like to think that eventually he could become a 15-20 touch guy, but like you said, tough to tell until we actually see him.

As far as this year goes, it will be interesting. Matt Ryan has said Quizz has looked great and that'd he'd be our 3rd down back. So I'm just curious as to how we work in both Quizz and Snelling.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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The Patriots are getting ready to release Brandon McGowan
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