2012 Draft Thread

[keylime_5]

Originally Posted by lacotomo

Not too much being said about Richardson although McShay thinks he is our guy and the mock on this site(although outdated) has us taking Richardson too. With Hillis being questionable, and Hardesty being brittle, I like the idea of getting a 'go to' RB who is able to break long runs and is good between the tackles. For their 2nd #1 pick, I am good with Floyd too. I know defense is a priority, as we are once again last against the run, but for once can we be the team that gets the playmakers? I am tired of someone else getting the Adrian Peterson's, and Calvin Johnson's, and Dez Bryant/AJ Green's etc. Someone above said that playmakers can make an average QB look great, and lack of playmakers can make them look terrible. I agree with to a certain extent. I think Colt is good enough. Is he Brees/Brady/Manning? No. Is he good enough to win with talent around him? I think/hope so. I know it works both ways (great QB makes average players sweet - see Lance Moore, Devery Henderson, Meachem, etc), but he also has had Coleston, a good running game, and a good to great TE every year too....Brady is not of this world when it comes to this and does not count...

Anyway, I say go 'O' early, give Colt one more year to show he can be good enough, then find some 'D' in free agency, or God forbid, try and score with other teams if you can't stop them. (Here is where I would quote the Browns embarrassing percentages of scoring on their first drive, total points per game average, red zone TD percentage, # of red zone drives per game, 2nd half scoring totals, 3rd quarter scoring totals, # of quarters this year without a TD)- did I miss any :)....

My philosophy on drafting runninbacks in the first round is that you don't do it unless you have all the other pieces in place. Certainly don't draft one in the top 5 unless he's a hall of famer type like Sanders, Tomlinson, or Peterson. Richardson is more of a Steven Jackson type, and we have so many needs, and fantastic RBs are so easy to find later in the draft, so I would much rather draft RGIII or Justin Blackmon at #4 overall. I think we have to find the QB this year, I don't think they can afford to wait on Colt another year, they have to make a move.

[kalbears13]

Obviously Cleveland needs a franchise quarterback but if they don't believe RGIII, Flynn or any other QB doesn't have the potential to be one, then they shouldn't waste a high pick(s) just because they "need" a quarterback. There is a lot of talent they can add instead and wait until next year with what seems to be a strong QB class. Colt and Seneca aren't great but they're not completely incompetent.

[Brown Leader]

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian

I agree, RG111 or Flynn, preferably RG111 although we will in all likelihood have to trade up to get the pick.
I also agree that Tannehill has to be in the picture if we fail to land the 1st 2. I'm not liking next year's crop of QB's one bit.
People forget that it takes time to develop a winning team capable of winning a Super Bowl, especially at QB. Every year you put off drafting one adds 2 or 3 years to your timetable for success.

Wait. You don't see anything special in Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, Logan Thomas, Brock Osweiler, E.J. Manuel, or James Franklin with another year of development?

[j05son]

Originally Posted by Brown Leader

Wait. You don't see anything special in Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, Logan Thomas, Brock Osweiler, E.J. Manuel, or James Franklin with another year of development?

IAC thinks Barkley is garbage because he returned to school for his senior season.

[JBCX]

Originally Posted by keylime_5

My philosophy on drafting runninbacks in the first round is that you don't do it unless you have all the other pieces in place. Certainly don't draft one in the top 5 unless he's a hall of famer type like Sanders, Tomlinson, or Peterson. Richardson is more of a Steven Jackson type, and we have so many needs, and fantastic RBs are so easy to find later in the draft, so I would much rather draft RGIII or Justin Blackmon at #4 overall. I think we have to find the QB this year, I don't think they can afford to wait on Colt another year, they have to make a move.

That's a very good strategy.

A RB is only worth a top-15 draft pick if you can confidently say that his career will be similar to one of the following players: Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Adrian Peterson, LaDanian Tomlinson, Marshall Faulk, or Edgerrin James.

If you have any doubts about including him in that pantheon, then he's not worth it.

[initial_flo]

Originally Posted by JBCX

That's a very good strategy.

A RB is only worth a top-15 draft pick if you can confidently say that his career will be similar to one of the following players: Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Adrian Peterson, LaDanian Tomlinson, Marshall Faulk, or Edgerrin James.

If you have any doubts about including him in that pantheon, then he's not worth it.

I agree with the above RBs and also on other 'lower' value positions. I think the same, "don't touch in 1st RD unless elite player/elite value" applies to RTs, Safeties, Guards, TEs.

Drives me crazy when I hear on local radio to draft Richardson and a RT in the 1st Round. It's so difficult to get elite QBs, DEs, CBs, and WRs later on. These are all things we desperately need to attend to and have a golden chance to address this spring. It needs to be done otherwise I really don't know how much longer I can stick with this thing.

[fear the elf]

If this was a year or two ago, I'd probably agree with all of you about the value of RB, RT, TE, etc. However, for whatever reason, I'm starting to think that all of that is bull****.

I want elite players, no matter what position they play. If our FO strongly believes that Richardson is going to be elite, take him. If it's so easy to find RB's later in the draft, why don't we have anyone worth anything? At this point I'd kill to have a guy like Marshawn Lynch on this team, let alone AD.

I want difference makers on this team . . . something to be excited about, and I don't give a damn what position they play.

[keylime_5]

well I'm sure that was the thinking behind taking CJ Spiller, Knowshon Moreno, Reggie Bush, and even the aforementioned Marshawn Lynch in the top 12 picks. Anyone you take in the top 5 is expected to be a great player, it's just that it's a whole lot harder to find great defensive linemen, defensive backs, quarterbacks, and wide receivers later in the draft than it is to find a pro bowl RB. For every Peterson and Tomlinson there are two dozen guys like Forte, Jones Drew, Arian Foster, Ben Tate, Terrell Davis, Ray Rice, etc. It just seems way more likely these days that a high pick used on a runningback will turn out like Ryan Matthews, Knowshon Moreno, Reggie Bush, CJ Spiller, Cadillac Williams, or Cedric Benson.

If we don't take Richardson then we probably take Griffin, Blackmon, or even Claiborne, and I definitely could get just as if not more excited about those guys in comparison. Now trading down and taking more role players is not what we need to do this year. We did that last year and it worked out good for this draft. We need to cash in on that and get a playmaking impact player or two.

[initial_flo]

^Griffin, Blackmon, Claiborne in some order would be my top 3 for sure outside of Luck. Not sure if I'm 100% sold on RGIII, still working on that...

But Blackmon would be great TO type number 1 and I think Little would benefit a ton also. And I think the Greg Little effect is very underrated. For a guy who didn't play football in two years and was the only guy that could create separation in this atrocious offense, I still think the sky is the limit as far as a top notch #2 threat. Maybe I'm still drinking the Koolaid, but I think he could be a monster with a legit guy like Blackmon on the other side.

And a dream pairing in the Defensive Back with Claiborne I would also be all in on. The Browns could have thee elite tandem by far in about 2-3 years. Blitzes options all over the place and having 2 possible lockdown corners in this NFL sounds like part of the winning formula to me.

[j05son]

We will be drafting 4th and 22nd now.

[kalbears13]

Originally Posted by j05son

We will be drafting 4th and 22nd now.

Thank you Giants D.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by Brown Leader

Wait. You don't see anything special in Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, Logan Thomas, Brock Osweiler, E.J. Manuel, or James Franklin with another year of development?

Looks like Osweiler will come out but I doubt he sees round 1. The other have potential but their ceiling isn't close to either Luck's or RG111's. They all carry question marks more serious IMO to Luck or RG111.

Another season may dispel their warts but right now they don't appear to be top 5 material outside of Barkley who I just don't care for. I question his mental toughness after he returned to school, Just another USC QB from a well off family who wants another year of fun and games at college before he has to get down to the serious business of pro football. Is he prepared to put in the time and hard work that you see from Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton. GM's are really going to want to be blown off their feet in the interview process next post season before he will earn respect from them.

E.J. Manuel may well turnout to be the best of the lot.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by keylime_5

well I'm sure that was the thinking behind taking CJ Spiller, Knowshon Moreno, Reggie Bush, and even the aforementioned Marshawn Lynch in the top 12 picks. Anyone you take in the top 5 is expected to be a great player, it's just that it's a whole lot harder to find great defensive linemen, defensive backs, quarterbacks, and wide receivers later in the draft than it is to find a pro bowl RB. For every Peterson and Tomlinson there are two dozen guys like Forte, Jones Drew, Arian Foster, Ben Tate, Terrell Davis, Ray Rice, etc. It just seems way more likely these days that a high pick used on a runningback will turn out like Ryan Matthews, Knowshon Moreno, Reggie Bush, CJ Spiller, Cadillac Williams, or Cedric Benson.

If we don't take Richardson then we probably take Griffin, Blackmon, or even Claiborne, and I definitely could get just as if not more excited about those guys in comparison. Now trading down and taking more role players is not what we need to do this year. We did that last year and it worked out good for this draft. We need to cash in on that and get a playmaking impact player or two.

Just a couple of things, getting RG111 may require a trade up costing us either Atlanta's 1st rounder or our own 2nd rounder.
Blackmon is borderline elite for me, just have to see how fast he runs the 40 at the combine.

Claiborne would be a ridiculous pick for a team offensively deprived like us. However, he will remain in the conversation because this year's draft is terribly weak both in elite talent and in depth due to so many juniors declaring last year.

Looking at the trade last year, I'm sure Atlanta factored in the fact that their scouts told them next year's draft basically stinks and giving up picks in those circumstances was well worth the risk. I estimate the 22 nd pick to be not much more than a 2nd round talent and our talent evaluators will really be put to the task of finding anything more than an average starter from it. And now we may have to use that pick to get RG111.

Unless we can get RG111, I think getting impact players will be a very tough find.

[keylime_5]

I think we're pretty well set up to get an impact player at #4. If we don't get RGIII then Justin Blackmon should be available. Richardson and Claiborne IMO would be disappointments compared to those two, but nonetheless are impact players who will go to multiple pro bowls in their careers and should be among the best in the league with their skill sets. I would be disappointed if we had to trade up 1 spot to grab Griffin with the cost being the 22nd or 37th overall pick in addition to the #4 pick. I would rather just go for Matt Flynn and keep the #4 pick than do that trade.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by keylime_5

I think we're pretty well set up to get an impact player at #4. If we don't get RGIII then Justin Blackmon should be available. Richardson and Claiborne IMO would be disappointments compared to those two, but nonetheless are impact players who will go to multiple pro bowls in their careers and should be among the best in the league with their skill sets. I would be disappointed if we had to trade up 1 spot to grab Griffin with the cost being the 22nd or 37th overall pick in addition to the #4 pick. I would rather just go for Matt Flynn and keep the #4 pick than do that trade.

Flynn is certainly another option although the way he played against Detroit would have to factor in the mental letdown the Lions defenders suffered after being told Rodgers wasn't playing. It could have made him look a lot better than he really is. Add to that, the prospect that if GB franchises him, still a possibility, he may well cost more than RG111.
I know this, we simply have to get one or the other or our future will look awfully bleak. Blackmon, Richardson or Claiborne would all be weak substitutes.

[kalbears13]

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian

Another season may dispel their warts but right now they don't appear to be top 5 material outside of Barkley who I just don't care for. I question his mental toughness after he returned to school, Just another USC QB from a well off family who wants another year of fun and games at college before he has to get down to the serious business of pro football. Is he prepared to put in the time and hard work that you see from Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton. GM's are really going to want to be blown off their feet in the interview process next post season before he will earn respect from them.

Your hate on Barkley has no basis whatsoever. You have no idea what his personality is like and probably have never listened to an interview. The guy stayed at USC after his freshman year after the program was taken its bowl eligibility for his next two years. After all that happened he not only stayed at USC but also helped convince the other players to not transfer. I'm not sure how you can still endorse picking someone like Sanchez over Barkley. Also 3 of those 4 quarterbacks I believe stayed for their senior year. Barkley is a pretty devout Christian so I don't see him going around ******* off.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by kalbears13

Your hate on Barkley has no basis whatsoever. You have no idea what his personality is like and probably have never listened to an interview. The guy stayed at USC after his freshman year after the program was taken its bowl eligibility for his next two years. After all that happened he not only stayed at USC but also helped convince the other players to not transfer. I'm not sure how you can still endorse picking someone like Sanchez over Barkley. Also 3 of those 4 quarterbacks I believe stayed for their senior year. Barkley is a pretty devout Christian so I don't see him going around ******* off.

I'm just looking at trends and the current trend is that solid NFL QB's come out as juniors. When I look at QB's who returned for their seniors years in recent times, I'm not seeing a lot of success just yet. It may be too early to judge some but I'm not seeing a whole lot out of Leinart, Bradford or Locker.
I am unaware that Barkley is a devout Christian, it would definitely factor into my confidence in him.
I still have Luck and RG111 way ahead of next year's crop as prospects just based on talent, so I think we need to find a QB this year, either Flynn or RG111 whichever one Holmgren believes in.

[fear the elf]

Does anyone have news on Marcus Benard? How do you think he fits into the equation on the DL? Is he simply a pass rush specialist or is he the running for the full time RE gig? We all know how Sheard was moved to LE in week 2 and appeared to thrive. I would think they keep him there if they think Benard can come back 100% from his accident.

I ask because I've seen a lot people mocking a DE to us with the #22. While I would love to have an awesome defense with a ton of guys to get after the QB (like the Giants), I think this draft needs to focus almost exclusively on offense (unless the value is too good to pass up).

[WinslowBodden]

Originally Posted by keylime_5

I think we're pretty well set up to get an impact player at #4. If we don't get RGIII then Justin Blackmon should be available. Richardson and Claiborne IMO would be disappointments compared to those two, but nonetheless are impact players who will go to multiple pro bowls in their careers and should be among the best in the league with their skill sets. I would be disappointed if we had to trade up 1 spot to grab Griffin with the cost being the 22nd or 37th overall pick in addition to the #4 pick. I would rather just go for Matt Flynn and keep the #4 pick than do that trade.

If Griffin Luck and Blackmon are gone I don't see what would be wrong with drafting Kalil or trading down. We had what was probably the worst right tackle in the entire league, and we could upgrade our line immensely. Free agency is going to be the key to this draft.

[keylime_5]

I'm not worried about that scenario b/c IMO there is no way that the Vikings pass on Matt Kalil if he is there unless they sign/trade for a left tackle between now and the draft, which seems unlikely b/c left tackles rarely hit the open market and if they do then contenders are prone to sign them over young rebuilding teams like Minnesota.

[j05son]

Two guys I honestly want to avoid with our forth overall pick (most likely with negative reactions from the majority of the Cleveland Browns fan base) are:

Justin Blackmon WR Oklahoma St

Good QB's make WR's better; not the other way around. While Tom Brady did eventually get some serious weapons at WR it wasn't until every other part of the team was in full motion. Brady and the Patriots were hearing Dynasty talk before Welker and before Moss. New England even traded their top receiver in Deion Branch to Seattle and still didn't miss a beat. Furthermore - Moss' departure didn't seem to hinder Tom Brady's success.

How about a team like, the Baltimore Ravens; who seemingly have all the pieces and are just adding that must have WR. They've added Boldin, Evans, and Houshmandzadeh the past 2 seasons with what results? Would the answer be 2 dropped game winning touchdown passes in the playoffs (Boldin - 2011, Evans - 2012)? How about 4 catches for 36 yards in a playoff loss to Pittsburgh (who get torched over the air by Aaron Rodgers and company)? Boldin contributed with a single catch for -2 yards and TJ Housh with 3 receptions for 38 yards in said Pittsburgh loss. At least the duo of Boldin (6 rec 100 yards 0 tds and a fumble) along with Evans (3rec 39 yards and dropped the game winning TD pass) faired better in their playoff loss to New England.

How much better does a rookie WR make you?
2011 - A.J. Green (CIN) 4-12 322 points before, 9-7 344 points after.
2011 - Julio Jones (ATL) 13-3 414 points before, 10-6 402 points after.
2011 - Johnathon Baldwin (KC) 10-6 366 points before, 7-9 212 points after.
2010 - Dez Bryant (DAL) 11-5 361 points before, 6-10 394 points after.
2010 - Demetrius Thomas (DEN) 8-8 326 points before, 4-12 344 points after.

Well, there's a learning curve with rookies, how about a big name WR?

Chad Henne w/out Marshall 60.8%, 12 TD, 14 INT, 6.4 YPA, 75.2 QB rating.
Chad Henne with Marshall 61.4%, 15 TD, 19 INT, 6.7 YPA, 75.4 QB rating.

Joe Flacco w/out Boldin 63.1%, 21 TD, 12 INT, 7.2 YPA, 88.9 QB rating.
Joe Flacco with Boldin 62.6%, 25 TD, 10 INT, 7.4 YPA, 93.5 QB rating.

Tom Brady with Branch 63%, 26 TD, 14 INT, 7.8 YPA, 92.3 QB rating
Tom Brady w/out Branch 61.8%, 24 TD, 12 INT, 6.8 YPA, 87.9 QB rating.

At the end of the day, WR's don't provide your team with this superior upgrade that justify a top selection when your team has so many other, glaring holes. A young team like ourselves should be addressing the answer of QB first and foremost (as Colt McCoy is still questionable right now), a RDE who can get after the QB, An WOLB who can get after the QB, Another CB to pair with Haden in this pass happy league (which allows Sheldon Brown to move to FS and solve another secondary issue), a RT to improve the awful side of our line, some depth for both sides of the line (games are won and lost in the trenches before they are ever won or lost on the wideout). We frankly have a lot of needs and I feel all of the above are far more important than a flashy WR who will have limited touches per game or even wasting the forth overall on a WR to try and overcome the bottleneck which is our QB.

Trent Richardson RB Alabama

RB's are a dime a dozen in the NFL. Honestly, this seems truer now than ever.

Let's alone look at Cleveland:

2011 - Chris Ogbonnaya signed off the streets has 2 games where he bares the workload. 19 carries for 90 yards (4.7 avg) along with 2 rec for 19 yards. Against Jax, 21 carries 115 yards (5.7 avg) 1 TD, 2 rec for 19 yards.

2010 - Peyton Hillis 270 carries 1,177 yards (4.4 avg) 11 TD (5 Fumbles Lost), 61 rec for 477 rec yards and 2 rec TD.

2009 - Jerome Harrison has 4 100+ rushing games (CIN - 121, KC - 286, OAK - 148, JAX - 127), only had 5 games of 15+ carries and finished the year with 862 yards (4.4 avg) with 5 TD.

2008 - Jamal Lewis 279 carries 1002 yards 3.6 avg, 4 TD.

2007 - Jamal Lewis 298 carries 1304 yards 4.4 avg, 9 TD.

2006 - Reuben Droughns 220 carries 758 yards 3.4 avg 4 TD.

2005 - Reuben Droughns 309 carries 1232 yards 4.0 avg 2 TD

So in the last 7 years with our RBs, we've had 4 1k rushers with basically a guy who was at the end of their career or journeymen who had their only successful year(s?) with us.

How about the teams who played in the Super Bowl during said time frame. What was their running back situation?

2011:
New England, 1764 team rush yards, leader - Green Ellis (undrafted) 667 yards, Ridley (3rd rounder) 441.
New York Giants, 1427 team rush yards, leader - Bradshaw (7th round) 659 yards, Jacobs (4th rounder) 571 yards.

2010:
Pittsburgh, 1903 team rush yards, leader - Mendenhall (1st round, 23 pick) 928 yards.
Green Bay, 1606 team rush yards, leader - Jackson (2nd round, 63 pick) 703 yards.

2009:
New Orleans, 2106 team rush yards, leader - Bell (undrafted) 654 yards, Thomas (undrafted) 793 yards.
Indianapolis, 1294 team rush yards, leader - Addai (1st round 30th pick) 828 yards.

2008:
Pittsburgh, 1690 team rush yards, leader - Parker (undrafted) 791, Moore (4th rounder) 581.
Arizona, 1178 team rush yards, leader - hightower (5th rounder) 399, James (4th overall pick) 514.

2007:
New England, 1849 team rush yards, leader - Maroney (1st rounder) 835 yards.
New York Giants, 2148 team rush yards, leader - Jacobs (4th rounder) 1009 yards.

2006:
Chicago, 1918 team rush yards, leader - Jones (7th overall pick) 1210 yards.
Indianapolis, 1762 team rush yards, leader - addai (1st round 30th pick) 1081.

Top draftees or those "once in a decade running backs" aren't taking their team to the big game (exception Thomas and that Chicago D in '06). Guys like Peterson and Johnson aren't carrying their teams to playoff berths this year or deep into the playoffs so far in their young careers. Tomlinson could never get over the hump for a once in a decade player. McFadden, Bush, Brown, Benson, Cadillac Williams, Ricky Williams, Steven Jackson, McGahee, and William Green never accomplished much in the playoffs or seen a Super Bowl.

Running Back just frankly isn't a top priority in the NFL and the adage of a dime a dozen is true. We have far to many holes that need to be addressed before we look at a running back in the first round no matter how talented the individual.

Originally Posted by WinslowBodden

If Griffin Luck and Blackmon are gone I don't see what would be wrong with drafting Kalil or trading down. We had what was probably the worst right tackle in the entire league, and we could upgrade our line immensely. Free agency is going to be the key to this draft.

Would love to draft Kalil or trade down and get more picks for a team desperate to add talent in multiple areas.

[fear the elf]

Originally Posted by j05son

lot's of stuff

I think your assertions about the WR and RB position are misguided.

I'm of the belief that these positions aren't necessary in the presence of an elite level QB, however, we don't/will not have an elite level QB in 2012. Therefore, that makes talented players at these positions necessary.

People keep bringing up guys like Tom Brady, Matt Stafford, etc. as proof that you don't need great players around a young QB for him to develop and make your team a contender. I wrote a pretty long post about it in the RGIII trade rumors thread that I thought showed that almost nobody develops into a top QB alone. Drew Brees didn't just enter the NFL as a stud and elevate the play of a bunch of JAG's. That's just now how it has ever worked.

In my opinion, talent + situation = success. And this team is not a good situation for a young QB. That's why I think you take Blackmon or Richardson, to improve the situation for when a QB is drafted.

I'm of the belief that this year should be about getting a WR/RT/RB and then next year you can sell out by trading your 1st RD and next years 1st RD to get Barkley or Wilson. Again, just my opinion on how to foster the growth of a young QB.

Originally Posted by fear the elf

Again, I'd like to point out that I'm not against drafting RGIII at #4 if available, but I am against giving up picks to move up when the talent around him is among the worst supporting cast in the league.

Cudders, I think you are being far too kind in your evaluation of our current roster and, as you mentioned, there is no guarantee that Hillis (arguably the most talented skill player) will even be back.

I guess I'm a little confused by those that say "give up whatever it takes" to get yourself a (possible) franchise QB. Are you making these comments keeping in mind the current offensive talent on this roster or in a vacuum? I ask because I feel like people think that a rookie QB is going to magically elevate the play of the offense somehow. We are talking about a rookie, not some 5 year vet...

Just look at the list of "franchise" QBs and the help they had in their first year as a starter (first year as a starter mind you, not as a rookie; so some of these guys had a chance to watch and learn). I indicated All-pros (AP), Pro Bowls (PB), and yardage for anybody who you wouldn't think is anything special (ex., Selvin Young and Travis Henry):

QB, 1st Yr as Starter

Manning, 1998
Harrison
Faulk

Brady, 2001
Troy Brown (PB)

Brees, 2002
Tomlinson (PB)

Vick, 2002
Dunn

Roethlisberger, 2004
Bettis (PB)/Staley (comb. 1770 yds)
Ward (PB)
Burress
OL (2 AP's & 1 PB)

Manning, 2005
Barber (AP)
Shockey (PB)
Burress (1200 yds)

Rivers, 2006
Tomlinson (AP)
Gates (AP)

Romo, 2006
Owens
Witten (PB)
Terry Glenn (1000 yds)

Cutler, 2007
Marshall
Young/Henry (combined 1400 yds)

Schaub, 2007
Johnson
Daniels

Rodgers, 2008
Driver
Jennings
Grant (1200 yds)

Ryan, 2008
Turner (AP)
White (PB)

Stafford, 2009
Johnson

So the guys that got the "least" help where probably Brady, Brees, Vick, and Stafford, right? So I guess if we trade up using our #22 pick to get RGIII we can expect him to elevate the play of his team if he's a HOFer and possible GOAT (Brady); a HOFer (Brees), a mediocre QB that goes to jail, gets signed by a much more talented team, and rides the bench for a year (Vick); or has a Decepticon (and probable HOFer at this rate) at WR (Stafford). [/sarcasm]

Almost nobody does it on their own, you need talent around a young QB. Anybody that thinks this team is talented enough to just trade away a 1st RD pick and insert RGIII into the lineup and he's going to succeed isn't facing the facts. This offense is bereft of NFL caliber starters at the skill positions.

[fear the elf]

For the record, I'd love for the draft to go something like:

#4 :: Justin Blackmon, WR Oklahoma State
#22 :: Mike Adams, OT Ohio State
#37 :: Doug Martin, RB Boise State

[j05son]

Originally Posted by fear the elf

I think your assertions about the WR and RB position are misguided.

I'm of the belief that these positions aren't necessary in the presence of an elite level QB, however, we don't/will not have an elite level QB in 2012. Therefore, that makes talented players at these positions necessary.

People keep bringing up guys like Tom Brady, Matt Stafford, etc. as proof that you don't need great players around a young QB for him to develop and make your team a contender. I wrote a pretty long post about it in the RGIII trade rumors thread that I thought showed that almost nobody develops into a top QB alone. Drew Brees didn't just enter the NFL as a stud and elevate the play of a bunch of JAG's. That's just now how it has ever worked.

In my opinion, talent + situation = success. And this team is not a good situation for a young QB. That's why I think you take Blackmon or Richardson, to improve the situation for when a QB is drafted.

I'm of the belief that this year should be about getting a WR/RT/RB and then next year you can sell out by trading your 1st RD and next years 1st RD to get Barkley or Wilson. Again, just my opinion on how to foster the growth of a young QB.

Atlanta:
They draft Michael Vick first overall by trading up for him (I'll agree with that, you have to have a qb in this league to compete and they felt he was their guy). How do they add talent around Vick? They draft a RB in TJ Duckett with their first pick the next year. They then trade their first round the following year to Buffalo for Peerless Price (WR). The next 3 years selections are used on DeAngelo Hall (cb), Michael Jenkins (wr), Roddy White (wr). Vick is then arrested and out of football the next two years. So Atlanta used 4 of their 5 selections to upgrade their offense around Vick and accomplished what? Two playoff appearances with Vick at the helms and two head coaches getting fired. The two losses in the playoffs came by the hands of Philadelphia who not only went to both NFC championship games and a Super Bowl those 2 years, they also used their first rounders on a corner, an offensive tackle, 2 defensive tackles and a defensive end.

Now you fast forward a bit and you get Matt Ryan 2nd overall as your new QB. Atlanta spends their next 3 first round picks to improve the trenches and defense. Along with some offensive weapons left over for the previous failed attempts in..........yeah just White. They eventually sign Tony Gonzlez and Michael Turner (who was a 5th round pick and proves RB's are a dime a dozen and you don't need to spend top 10 picks to get one). They go to the playoffs 2 out of the next 3 years and then they make that dreaded trade with Cleveland. They go after that once in a decade WR in Julio Jones, I mean they mortgage the future by giving up 5 draft picks, 2 of them are first rounders for a WR that helped the organization take a step back from where they were previously. Julio Jones along with White, Gonzo, Turner and Matty Ice - a dynamic offense showed the world what their offense was capable in the playoffs as they didn't put up a single point in the wild card loss to New York. Now they're going into this offseason still missing draft picks including their first rounder to help them get over that hump.

Detroit:
So Detroit drafts Joey Harrington in 2002 and add talent by getting wr Carlos Rogers (03), wr Roy Williams (04), rb Kevin Smith (05), wr Mike Williams (05), lb Ernie Simms (06), wr Calvin Johnson (07), ot Gosder Cherilus (08), qb Matt Stafford (09) - lol at all the "help" Joey got, te Brandon Pettigrew (10), de Suh (11). Detriot has been awul for years up until now and they've drafted 2 "franchise" qb's, 4 "once in a decade" wrs, 1 tackle to protect their "franchise" qbs, a tight end, and a linebacker. I get what you were saying in "Look at megatron is helping Stafford" but I wonder what a ******* offensive line would have done for Stafford. I wonder how talented Detroit could have been witout 75% of their first round WR corps busting, or 80% of their offensive play-makers busting before Stafford got there. If anything, Detroit proves my point more than it proves yours.

Pittsburgh:
They've drafted 2 offensive play-makers in the last decade. I went back 12 years to include Plaxico since you listed him. So 3 play-makers in 12 years in which 2 of them were let go by Pittsburgh (Holmes and Burress) where once is about to go to his third team and the other is on his third team. Then you have Mendenhall whos nothing more than a product of the system; the same system in fact that has always had success running the ball no matter if it was Jerome Bettis, Duece Staley, or Willie Parker. Pittsburgh's success at WR is with Hines Ward (3rd rounder), Mike Wallace (3rd rounder), Antonio Brown (6th rounder), and Heath Miller (1st rounder) - but I value TE morose than WR. I'm not saying Big Ben came into a bad situation or anything, hell he came in with a damn good defense and a great offensive line, he had a strong running game but the fact is that he is making his WRs better not the other way around. There's a reason why Ben is brought up in elite QB conversations even though Pitt has let go 2 of their "elite" first round receivers. I still wouldn't let my girlfriend/sister/close-female-friend go into a unisex bathroom with him though.

Cincinnati:
How about Carson Palmer and the 3-11 Bengals vs the 8-6 San Deigo Chargers. Carson had the best statistical night of his life going 16-21, 269 yards, 12.8 ypa, 4 TD, 0 INT, 157.2 QB rating. Leading rusher for Cincinnati had 52 yards with a 2.2 ypc and both Chad Ochocinco and Terrel Owens sat that game - neither played. While I'm not saying that the current Carson Palmer is a good QB, the point that good QBs make the team better is true and evident by a statline with the teams top 2 offensive "play-makers" out.

I'm not going to go and do every example you posted (plus I've already done New England) and I'm not saying WR and RB don't help a QB out it's just not so important as many make it out to be. There are many other positions that should hold a premium over wr and rb in today's game that I would rather go best player available (Luck, Claiborne, Kalil, RG3 - in that order) or trade down and get more picks to help a team lacking talent in key spots (RDE, CB, RT, LB opposite Gocong) and desperate for depth (particularly the lines).

[fear the elf]

The point isn't that already established guys need a great WR or RB. The point is that the great QBs in the NFL all had talent at either WR or RB to get to where they are today.

You cite guys like Joey Harrington and Michael Vick. Those guys were drafted onto teams bereft of talent when they got there. I'm saying, they should have added at least one playmaker the year before in the draft or during free agency. That playmaker makes it easier for the QB to develop into a franchise guy that (this is where we agree) doesn't need high draft picks at WR and RB to be great, because he already is great!

For example, Roethlesberger was able to lean on guys like Hines Ward, Jerome Bettis, and Plaxico Burress in his first few seasons. Once he established himself as a franchise QB, the Steelers didn't need the big names around him anymore. Going back to my point, if he doesn't have those three guys in his first few seasons, he gets killed out there and never develops into the QB that you see today.

That's my stance on developing young QBs. You need guys to help them in their first few years. No QB is entering this offense next year and making the guys around him better. Without a WR or RB to lean on (either from the draft or free agency), he will go the way of Tim Couch before him...