Tebow and the triple option - Page 11

someone447 · 12-01-2011, 12:52 PM

Maybe the defense is playing better as a direct result of Tebow playing--because they run the ball every play. If I'm not mistaken Denver's time of possession has leapt from 30th when Orton was starting to 5th when Tebow was.

That makes an incredible amount of difference in points allowed. So Tebow's inability to throw, rather than his ethereal "intangibles" or "motivation" is what has caused the defense's points allowed to drop so dramatically.

I'm sure them getting healthy also plays a major role--but motivation is severely overrated. You do not make the NFL(or stay in, in the case of JaMarcus Russell) if you are not already tremendously motivated. Every player in the league is incredibly competitive and does not want to lose, that is how they got to where they are at.

Denver Bronco56 · 12-01-2011, 12:56 PM

First of all Tebow is having an impact on the game, plain and simple he is playing smart football if you look at his % of touches to TD if i recall its the highest in the NFL, he isnt turning the ball over and is able to keep defenses on their toes due to his threat to run.. which is helping mcgahee tear it up.

I will agree the D is playing out of their minds.. GREAT. But if Tebow was throwing INT's like orton was they wouldnt be near as rested and fresh as they are when tebow and mcgahee are running all over teams..

He might not be "lighting it up" but he is not turning the ball over, the team is running great and keeping the Defense rested... he is getting better and so is the Defense i cant understand why people fail to understand he is going to get better passing the more he works on it... Human beings get better at things the more they do it, Tebow is no exception

Denver Bronco56 · 12-01-2011, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone447

Maybe the defense is playing better as a direct result of Tebow playing--because they run the ball every play. If I'm not mistaken Denver's time of possession has leapt from 30th when Orton was starting to 5th when Tebow was.

That makes an incredible amount of difference in points allowed. So Tebow's inability to throw, rather than his ethereal "intangibles" or "motivation" is what has caused the defense's points allowed to drop so dramatically.

I'm sure them getting healthy also plays a major role--but motivation is severely overrated. You do not make the NFL(or stay in, in the case of JaMarcus Russell) if you are not already tremendously motivated. Every player in the league is incredibly competitive and does not want to lose, that is how they got to where they are at.

How they got here was talent, the difference between winning and losing is being motivated.. the difference between being decent, good, great or a bust is motivation

If Dawkins, or Ray lewis dont "motivate" people around them..and Tebow also then we must being watching different games because i know for sure people around those players are hyped, and know the other 10 players have their backs

Prowler · 12-01-2011, 01:00 PM

Honestly, it hasn't changed TOP at all. He has too many 3 and outs to have an impact on time of possession. The biggest thing he brings to the table is lack of interceptions.

I do believe that NFL players are spiritual or at least superstitious. He may be a rallying symbol, but he isn't necessarily the cause for the change.

njx9 · 12-01-2011, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone447

Maybe the defense is playing better as a direct result of Tebow playing--because they run the ball every play. If I'm not mistaken Denver's time of possession has leapt from 30th when Orton was starting to 5th when Tebow was.

i noted the oakland game earlier (i believe), where we had a whopping 30 seconds more time of possession in the game (with tebow starting than with orton starting, and it was still well under 30:00). the offense still can't convert on third down, ever. the fact that we don't allow tebow to throw (and thus turn the ball over) *is* probably helping, since we can take advantage of colquitt.

Halsey · 12-01-2011, 01:06 PM

If the triple option stops being effective for the Broncos, there's an easy solution: THE QUADRUPLE OPTION! OMFG UNSTOPPABLEZZ!

someone447 · 12-01-2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denver Bronco27

How they got here was talent, the difference between winning and losing is being motivated.. the difference between being decent, good, great or a bust is motivation

If Dawkins, or Ray lewis dont "motivate" people around them..and Tebow also then we must being watching different games because i know for sure people around those players are hyped, and know the other 10 players have their backs

No, the talent level of the team is what determines winning and losing. The better team wins the vast majority of the games. If you are not already self motivated no one will be able to motivate you. Motivation does play a big role, but it is self-motivation. The type of motivation needed needs to come from inside oneself. Tebow is not willing the Broncos to wins. He is winning games by playing smart football and doing it within his skill set.

I'm not arguing that Tebow doesn't play a huge role in the Broncos recent success. I am just pointing out that one man does not change the culture of a locker room. Tebow has just put them in a better position to win than did Orton. He doesn't turn the ball over, and since they run on nearly every play they control the clock much better than they did with Orton.

There is no magic "intangible" that Tebow has and no one else possesses, and it is ridiculous to make the argument otherwise.

someone447 · 12-01-2011, 01:10 PM

According to ESPN the Broncos have jumped 25 sports in TOP since Tebow took over.

http://frontrow.espn.go.com/2011/11/...lie-tim-tebow/

Oakland is probably not the best example due to the fact that they thrive on their running game also.

Even a 3 and out with 3 straight runs takes a minute and a half off the game clock.

Denver Bronco56 · 12-01-2011, 01:17 PM

Im not saying that Tebow is the only one with the "magic quality" but if you are telling me there is no such thing as being able to motivate someone... then you my sir have never heard a motivational speech, heard someone talk to you that inspired you, or have heard of other's doing this.. so taking in account you live under a rock and dont talk or hear of people with the quality to motivate i will show you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZaGh6HIZ0c

i actually think this video is perfect since it brings up multiple people with this "magical quality"

And i dont think everyone is capable of motivating men, it takes someone with the "magical ability"

someone447 · 12-01-2011, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denver Bronco27

Im not saying that Tebow is the only one with the "magic quality" but if you are telling me there is no such thing as being able to motivate someone... then you my sir have never heard a motivational speech, heard someone talk to you that inspired you, or have heard of other's doing this.. so taking in account you live under a rock and dont talk or hear of people with the quality to motivate i will show you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZaGh6HIZ0c

i actually think this video is perfect since it brings up multiple people with this "magical quality"

I am saying that in order to be in the NFL--one of the absolute best in the world at what you do--you have to be incredibly self motivated. You do not make it to the top of your profession(which the NFL obviously is) without an inner fire that is constantly burning. NFL players already have the intense motivation they need--otherwise they wouldn't be in the NFL or last through a single training camp. Tebow has not magically pumped up the Broncos team. They are not playing harder for him. The team is playing better because of him, because he brings a skill set that fits tremendously well with what John Fox wants to do and with how the team is built. But it is not him "willing" the team to win.

someone447 · 12-01-2011, 01:25 PM

I would be willing to bet that the younger posters on this board are the ones who are saying Tebow has "willed" the Broncos to victory.

Prowler · 12-01-2011, 01:35 PM

Broncos vs whoever Time of Possession by game
27-32
30-30
29-31
27-33
20-40-Tebow entered the game
34-33-Tebow's 1st start, Dolphins Game
30-30
32-28
34-26-Kansas City game and the first and only game TOP really favors them
28-32
37-37

ESPN is just making ******** up now

TOP with Tebow is a myth

Sloopy · 12-01-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone447

Maybe the defense is playing better as a direct result of Tebow playing--because they run the ball every play. If I'm not mistaken Denver's time of possession has leapt from 30th when Orton was starting to 5th when Tebow was.

That makes an incredible amount of difference in points allowed. So Tebow's inability to throw, rather than his ethereal "intangibles" or "motivation" is what has caused the defense's points allowed to drop so dramatically.

I'm sure them getting healthy also plays a major role--but motivation is severely overrated. You do not make the NFL(or stay in, in the case of JaMarcus Russell) if you are not already tremendously motivated. Every player in the league is incredibly competitive and does not want to lose, that is how they got to where they are at.

Exactly, the offense helping the defense is by design only. Not turning the ball over and letting them rest is aiding the D tremendously.

You could put me in the game and I would hand off every time, as long as we didn't turn the ball over and sustained drives; it would help the D. Does this mean that I am willing the team to win or motivating my teammates to do so? no.

Sloopy · 12-01-2011, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denver Bronco27

How they got here was talent, the difference between winning and losing is being motivated.. the difference between being decent, good, great or a bust is motivation

If Dawkins, or Ray lewis dont "motivate" people around them..and Tebow also then we must being watching different games because i know for sure people around those players are hyped, and know the other 10 players have their backs

So if I'm more motivated than these players because I'll get payed for one game, more than I will make this year... I will be the best player on the field... got it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halsey

If the triple option stops being effective for the Broncos, there's an easy solution: THE QUADRUPLE OPTION! OMFG UNSTOPPABLEZZ!

... my god... they would need... quadruple teams to stop it...

someone447 · 12-01-2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prowler

Broncos vs whoever Time of Possession by game
27-32
30-30
29-31
27-33
20-40-Tebow entered the game
34-33-Tebow's 1st start, Dolphins Game
30-30
32-28
34-26-Kansas City game and the first and only game TOP really favors them
28-32
37-37

ESPN is just making ******** up now

TOP with Tebow is a myth

So, crunching the numbers(and taking out the game Tebow entered since that is an obvious outlier and am not sure who to give that to) the Broncos controlled the clock for 47.67% of the game while Orton was the QB. Since Tebow became the QB they have controlled the clock for 51.18% of the time. That is a pretty big difference in football. I would venture a guess that ESPN was correct in 51.18 TOP being 5 best in the league.

Crazy_Chris · 12-01-2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prowler

Broncos vs whoever Time of Possession by game
27-32
30-30
29-31
27-33
20-40-Tebow entered the game
34-33-Tebow's 1st start, Dolphins Game
30-30
32-28
34-26-Kansas City game and the first and only game TOP really favors them
28-32
37-37

ESPN is just making ******** up now

TOP with Tebow is a myth

BSPN really found something they could twist to look amazing in favor of Tebow. The T.O.P. is pretty much the same, the only difference is Tebow got to play in 2 overtime games which added about 10 extra mins to hiis total.

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone447

So, crunching the numbers(and taking out the game Tebow entered since that is an obvious outlier and am not sure who to give that to) the Broncos controlled the clock for 47.67% of the game while Orton was the QB. Since Tebow became the QB they have controlled the clock for 51.18% of the time. That is a pretty big difference in football. I would venture a guess that ESPN was correct in 51.18 TOP being 5 best in the league.

9:43 in overtime T.O.P. makes it look a lot better.

jrdrylie · 12-01-2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone447

So, crunching the numbers(and taking out the game Tebow entered since that is an obvious outlier and am not sure who to give that to) the Broncos controlled the clock for 47.67% of the game while Orton was the QB. Since Tebow became the QB they have controlled the clock for 51.18% of the time. That is a pretty big difference in football. I would venture a guess that ESPN was correct in 51.18 TOP being 5 best in the league.

Actually 9th. 51.18% of TOP comes out to 30:42. Cincinnati and Carolina are just behind at 30:39.

someone447 · 12-01-2011, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy_Chris

BSPN really found something they could twist to look amazing in favor of Tebow. The T.O.P. is pretty much the same, the only difference is Tebow got to play in 2 overtime games which added about 10 extra mins to hiis total.

Look at my post above it. 47.67% compared to 51.18%. That is a pretty big difference.

Crazy_Chris · 12-01-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone447

Look at my post above it. 47.67% compared to 51.18%. That is a pretty big difference.

If that includes the overtime it isn't a good comparison to Ortons T.O.P.

someone447 · 12-01-2011, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy_Chris

If that includes the overtime it isn't a good comparison to Ortons T.O.P.

It is a percentage of the time played. It doesn't matter if it includes overtime or not. If I said that with Tebow they average 33 minutes a game while with Orton they averaged 28 minutes a game it would be disingenuous, but since I used a percentage of time played the disparity in times doesn't really matter(other than both of them being a small sample size and the possibility that there is sampling error and given enough time they would both regress towards the mean.)

My math is correct, as is my statistical analysis. Whether that is the difference in the points allowed by the defense is open to debate. But the numbers are not. I am simply pointing out that this is probably more important than some sort of intangible that Tebow alone possesses.

Sloopy · 12-01-2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy_Chris

If that includes the overtime it isn't a good comparison to Ortons T.O.P.

I have to disagree, I can't believe I'm about to give Tebow credit (however so mild). Why isn't it a good comparison? It's time on the field. Do stats not count in overtime?

Vegas15 · 12-01-2011, 02:35 PM

As long we get the win, all of your points are pointless and asinine.

Crazy_Chris · 12-01-2011, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweater-vest_mafia

I have to disagree, I can't believe I'm about to give Tebow credit (however so mild). Why isn't it a good comparison? It's time on the field. Do stats not count in overtime?

If orton had played in Overtime 2 games aswell it would be fine but he didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone447

It is a percentage of the time played. It doesn't matter if it includes overtime or not. If I said that with Tebow they average 33 minutes a game while with Orton they averaged 28 minutes a game it would be disingenuous, but since I used a percentage of time played the disparity in times doesn't really matter(other than both of them being a small sample size and the possibility that there is sampling error and given enough time they would both regress towards the mean.)

My math is correct, as is my statistical analysis. Whether that is the difference in the points allowed by the defense is open to debate. But the numbers are not. I am simply pointing out that this is probably more important than some sort of intangible that Tebow alone possesses.

It's fine if you took that percentage out of 74:29 for his game against SD, and 67:36 for Miami instead of 60 mins

Prowler · 12-01-2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone447

So, crunching the numbers(and taking out the game Tebow entered since that is an obvious outlier and am not sure who to give that to) the Broncos controlled the clock for 47.67% of the game while Orton was the QB. Since Tebow became the QB they have controlled the clock for 51.18% of the time. That is a pretty big difference in football. I would venture a guess that ESPN was correct in 51.18 TOP being 5 best in the league.

That's ridiculous. He had one fluke game out of 5 and that's what's skewing the totals. Look at that those numbers and nobody can tell me that Tebow magically is improving the TOP. ESPN is just messing with numbers based on two fluke games.

Take out the two outlier games
-13 in 4 games without Tebow
+1 in 5 games with Tebow

Tebow gives the Broncos a competitive advantage of +1min over their opponents. Big deal. Even with heavy scheme in his favor, he only "wins" the argument by 1 minute.

*I don't give a flying crap about how bad Orton was at game management and nobody should either in this evaluation. It's Tebow vs his competition.

someone447 · 12-01-2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy_Chris

If orton had played in Overtime 2 games aswell it would be fine but he didn't.

It's fine if you took that percentage out of 74:29 for his game against SD, and 67:36 for Miami instead of 60 mins

Yes, I took it out of the total time played, not out of 60 minutes.