Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > Draft Countdown Forums > Pro Football

Pro Football Discuss professional football.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-02-2011, 09:57 PM    (permalink
Ness
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Posts: 21,495
Reputation: 2355103
Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denver Bronco27 View Post
This is what people were saying when we played the jets and Rex Ryan... I think with teams built to stop the pass have a HARD TIME defending against a team that runs the ball 45+ times a game
I'm sorry but the Jets defense is not as good as the Ravens or the 49ers. At least against the run.
__________________

"Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
-San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
Ness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 10:01 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,782
Reputation: 180000
Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ness View Post
I'm sorry but the Jets defense is not as good as the Ravens or the 49ers. At least against the run.
Willis or Ray crushing Tebow would just make my season. You have very little chance. I'm almost hoping they pull a knock off job like the Seagulls did last year in the playoffs and somehow the Ravens play them in the second round, of course both WC would have to lose and I don't see either Broncos or Houston beating the Steelers
__________________

I PITY THE FOOL WHO DON'T BELIEVE ME
BK sig is straight sex
THE Ohio State University Buckeyes
Baltimore Ravens
Cleveland Cavaliers
Cleveland Indians
Chelsea FC
Quote:
Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Miller is visual sex on the field.
Sloopy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 10:10 PM    (permalink
Ness
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Posts: 21,495
Reputation: 2355103
Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zycho32 View Post
Emphasizing the bolded sentences here, if only because you're jumping to conclusions. Meaning, you're assuming Denver is using the Option at Peak Efficiency and thus making the point that the offense itself is a terrible idea in today's NFL.

Of course lots of people ALWAYS say that about something new in the NFL, unless it's something that involves all-out bombing via the passing game, then it's 'Sexy' and 'Flashy' and very 'Innovative'.

But that's a 'Casual' viewpoint and you shouldn't degrade yourself to that kind of rationale.

No, seriously, don't adopt the view of the Casuals. Those people are the scum of Sports Fans. (End Sarcasm)

But back to Denver. Would you be so dismissive of the Denver Option if Tebow could hit the broad side of a barn at League-Average accuracy? No, you wouldn't. He still wouldn't throw as much you seem to think he needs to throw to make an offense 'Good', but it would be scary for opposing Ds who get battered up repeatedly on the ground, only to know they can't just cheat 8 or 9 people in the box now because a big play can occur through the air at any moment.

Alas, Tebow can't make those kinds of throws right now, but do you see where I am going with this? Tebow's weaknesses do not make the Option forever worthless in the NFL- they just make it crippled in Denver right this minute.
Even as a long term solution I still don't see it working. If a quarterback has a good amount of accuracy why would you built and entire team that runs that offense in today's NFL? It doesn't make sense. Your quarterback is going to be more prone to getting hit, and then getting injured. And you'd have to recruit all of your quarterbacks on your roster to run the option offense. Receivers are probably not going to want to go there because of how many passes they won't catch and touchdowns they won't score. And what happens when you are down 20 points late in the third quarter or your run game is rendered useless? That takes your offense out of your element and forces and offense to do something it isn't used to which is pass the football efficiently.

If Denver's defense isn't doing what it's doing right now are we even having this discussion? We saw what happened against the Lions. They got down by a bunch of points and Tim Tebow and the offense weren't able to come from behind. And how will this offense convert third and longs? If a defense has an off day, can this offense go down the field and score a bunch of points in a hurry?

There was already discussion about this when Vince Young won six straight games as a rookie. People were wondering if he could run the option and do this and that. And that discussion got shut down real quick.
__________________

"Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
-San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
Ness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 10:25 PM    (permalink
Ngatachance92
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,304
Reputation: 602226
Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ngatachance92 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

But Ness... Dont you understand? Tebow can lift like 400 pounds, so getting hit 15 to 20 Times a game is no problem he's invincible. And to your response about receivers not wanting to go there, **** it... Just draft more o-lineman you dont need no stinking receivers.
__________________
"God can have his soul, but his ass belongs to me."
-Terrell Suggs on Ben Roethisberger
Ngatachance92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 10:26 PM    (permalink
jsagan77
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,405
Reputation: -62345
jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77
Default

You guys are splitting hairs with his accuracy because we all knew coming out of college Tebow had issues with his throwing motion, set up, etc. Tebow is basically a rookie so why should he have good accuracy numbers? Gabbert was a top ten pick and has around the same completion percentage. What Gabbert doesn't have is an 8:1 TD:INT ratio, 400+ yards rushing and 11 overall TD's in 6 games. Gabbert gets a pass because he's on a crap team with limited weapons but Tebow gets crucified even though he's producing even with crappy weapons? Talk about a double standard...

I don't understand i guess... What's the main goal in the NFL to have a QB that looks pretty and puts up gaudy stats or one that wins? Maybe with time Tebow will develop his throwing game to a more standard NFL level?
jsagan77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 10:44 PM    (permalink
Ness
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Posts: 21,495
Reputation: 2355103
Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
You guys are splitting hairs with his accuracy because we all knew coming out of college Tebow had issues with his throwing motion, set up, etc. Tebow is basically a rookie so why should he have good accuracy numbers? Gabbert was a top ten pick and has around the same completion percentage. What Gabbert doesn't have is an 8:1 TD:INT ratio, 400+ yards rushing and 11 overall TD's in 6 games. Gabbert gets a pass because he's on a crap team with limited weapons but Tebow gets crucified even though he's producing even with crappy weapons? Talk about a double standard...

I don't understand i guess... What's the main goal in the NFL to have a QB that looks pretty and puts up gaudy stats or one that wins? Maybe with time Tebow will develop his throwing game to a more standard NFL level?
Gabbert should have never been a top ten selection. A lot of people weren't in favor of that. That doesn't mean Tebow should have been a top selection in the draft either. That being said Gabbert's biggest problem is that he looks like he's actually scared to play in the NFL.

And Tebow hasn't been their main factor for winning games. That defense with Von Miller, Elivs Dummervill, Champ Bailey, etc. and a rejuvenated Wills McGahee is what is winning those games for the most part. Not to mention they have played average to terrible teams. Let's see how Tebow and that offense does against the Chicago Bears. Or the New England Patriots. Can they keep up in a shootout? We'll see.

And I hate to say it, but in this era the teams that usually have a quarterback that puts up pretty good statistics, are the ones that win games. Or rather, those teams have offenses that can score a bunch of points. Is it really a coincidence that the the majority of teams that are in the playoffs usually have a quarterback that puts up good statistics or the teams that win the Super Bowl usually have a quarterback that puts up shiny numbers?
__________________

"Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
-San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

Last edited by Ness : 12-02-2011 at 10:49 PM.
Ness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 10:45 PM    (permalink
nobodyinparticular
Hall of Famer
Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Not Oakland, CA
Posts: 21,301
Reputation: 2529147
nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
You guys are splitting hairs with his accuracy because we all knew coming out of college Tebow had issues with his throwing motion, set up, etc. Tebow is basically a rookie so why should he have good accuracy numbers? Gabbert was a top ten pick and has around the same completion percentage. What Gabbert doesn't have is an 8:1 TD:INT ratio, 400+ yards rushing and 11 overall TD's in 6 games. Gabbert gets a pass because he's on a crap team with limited weapons but Tebow gets crucified even though he's producing even with crappy weapons? Talk about a double standard...

I don't understand i guess... What's the main goal in the NFL to have a QB that looks pretty and puts up gaudy stats or one that wins? Maybe with time Tebow will develop his throwing game to a more standard NFL level?
Holy ****! Who EVER said Gabbert gets a pass?

Gabbert is a piece of **** at QB.

Just like Tim Tebow. Just in a different way.
__________________

Oldie but a goodie.
nobodyinparticular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 11:25 PM    (permalink
jsagan77
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,405
Reputation: -62345
jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77
Default

I agree on Gabbert, but you call a spade a spade, not send them into another category because of a subjective view. Gabbert was a top 10 pick, he's a rookie, he's under performing, and losing despite a top 5 D and a top RB.

You do realize that Tebow has 5 game winning drives right? That's not the defense... I agree that the Defense is keeping them in games, but how can you say they are "winning" games for them?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Gabbert should have never been a top ten selection. A lot of people weren't in favor of that. That doesn't mean Tebow should have been a top selection in the draft either. That being said Gabbert's biggest problem is that he looks like he's actually scared to play in the NFL.

And Tebow hasn't been their main factor for winning games. That defense with Von Miller, Elivs Dummervill, Champ Bailey, etc. and a rejuvenated Wills McGahee is what is winning those games for the most part. Not to mention they have played average to terrible teams. Let's see how Tebow and that offense does against the Chicago Bears. Or the New England Patriots. Can they keep up in a shootout? We'll see.

And I hate to say it, but in this era the teams that usually have a quarterback that puts up pretty good statistics, are the ones that win games. Or rather, those teams have offenses that can score a bunch of points. Is it really a coincidence that the the majority of teams that are in the playoffs usually have a quarterback that puts up good statistics or the teams that win the Super Bowl usually have a quarterback that puts up shiny numbers?

Last edited by jsagan77 : 12-02-2011 at 11:29 PM.
jsagan77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 11:25 PM    (permalink
Zycho32
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 635
Reputation: 103854
Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Even as a long term solution I still don't see it working. If a quarterback has a good amount of accuracy why would you built and entire team that runs that offense in today's NFL? It doesn't make sense. Your quarterback is going to be more prone to getting hit, and then getting injured. And you'd have to recruit all of your quarterbacks on your roster to run the option offense. Receivers are probably not going to want to go there because of how many passes they won't catch and touchdowns they won't score. And what happens when you are down 20 points late in the third quarter or your run game is rendered useless? That takes your offense out of your element and forces and offense to do something it isn't used to which is pass the football efficiently.

If Denver's defense isn't doing what it's doing right now are we even having this discussion? We saw what happened against the Lions. They got down by a bunch of points and Tim Tebow and the offense weren't able to come from behind. And how will this offense convert third and longs? If a defense has an off day, can this offense go down the field and score a bunch of points in a hurry?

There was already discussion about this when Vince Young won six straight games as a rookie. People were wondering if he could run the option and do this and that. And that discussion got shut down real quick.
Taking the comments one by one;

The concerns about QBs being abused and having to be specifically drafted to run the Option is a key concern. It goes back to finding the right pieces for a Non-Conventional offense to work. And in this case, it takes a very special talent to make such an offense work at the Professional level due to the raised bar in athletic ability and skillsets. Most just think that in this case, it means he has one or two too many weaknesses to run the standard offense. But be fair for a moment; how fundamentally different is the Option from a Pro-Style Offense these days? I can see the argument about a Prehistoric Option formation, back before the Ancient T saw the light of day. But innovation can breathe life into even the Option and make it capable of an all-around attack on defenses.

For instance, Denver's current Offense either is or is very close to the Spread Option. This would actually be more devastating if Tebow were more accurate because it still utilizes pass-heavy packages and multiple downfield targets, allowing for a long strike capacity even during those 3rd and Longs and twenty-plus point deficits you've mentioned.

As for recievers, you're definitely not going to get the superstars in Free Agency or the like, and divas are out of the question. But so what? Go through the draft and look for no-nonsense blue collar types who can make plays and if necessary replenish the recieving corps every couple of years if they leave.

And in all Fairness, not only would there be much less talk of Tebow being unconventional if the D still played like crap, but you can bet there would be far far less dissing of the whole process. Tebow would probably be evaluated more as a work in progress than as a savior and be judged more fairly as a result.

Vince Young's an interesting case to be sure, but not in the way you expect. That whole situation brought up the perception that you have to apparently throw for 3000+ yards and over two dozen Touchdowns before you can be deemed a good QB, or have an effect on a Football Game that wasn't negative. 'Oh he didn't throw for 300 yards? Just 160? Only one TD? Replace this clown!'. Or, at least that would be coming from the uneducated.
Zycho32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 11:28 PM    (permalink
jsagan77
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,405
Reputation: -62345
jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular View Post
Holy ****! Who EVER said Gabbert gets a pass?

Gabbert is a piece of **** at QB.

Just like Tim Tebow. Just in a different way.
No one has to say it, it's simply implied that he gets a pass because he's a rookie on a crap team. You always give rookie QB's time to develop.. Want some examples? See Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, tons of others that I don't feel like mentioning...
jsagan77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 11:39 PM    (permalink
Timbathia
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,087
Reputation: 147248
Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Timbathia is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denver Bronco27 View Post
This is what people were saying when we played the jets and Rex Ryan... I think with teams built to stop the pass have a HARD TIME defending against a team that runs the ball 45+ times a game
Hang on, what? The jets defense were all over us. The Broncos offense put up 10points. Mcgahee Had 18 yards on 12 carries. The other RBs had 30 yards on 13 carries. Tebow threw for 100 yards. The only time the offense wasnt completly and utterly smashed by the jets defense was the last drive, where tebow ran and passed well. It even required an utterly unexplainable decision by Ryan to throw the house at Tebow and give him an opportunity to run in that last TD.

Lets make no mistake, the Broncos offense is barely productive against weak defenses, and it is utter garbage against good ones.
Timbathia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 12:20 AM    (permalink
nobodyinparticular
Hall of Famer
Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Not Oakland, CA
Posts: 21,301
Reputation: 2529147
nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
No one has to say it, it's simply implied that he gets a pass because he's a rookie on a crap team. You always give rookie QB's time to develop.. Want some examples? See Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, tons of others that I don't feel like mentioning...
The hell it's implied! No one thinks Gabbert is on a Peyton Manning career arc--even a Byron Leftwich career arc. The dude effing sucks! Where the **** does Gabbert come in to the conversation about Tim Tebow. You didn't even make a strawman fallacy because it hasn't even been remotely mentioned in regards to Gabbert as a better QB.

And Drew Brees WAS a bust for three years with SD. SD was the bottom of the barrel and Brees was the epitome of the doldrums SF had reached. You don't draft a QB #4 overall if you are giving your current QB a pass.

But this is beside the point. When Peyton Manning played as a rookie, he ACTUALLY looked good. He had good mechanics. And he had the drive to make it work. Tim Tebow looks like ****.

So that's why people are calling him a ****** QB. Because he IS a ****** QB.
__________________

Oldie but a goodie.
nobodyinparticular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 12:54 AM    (permalink
Raiderz4Life
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: R4L 3:16 says I just whipped your ass
Posts: 15,139
Reputation: 3152801
Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbathia View Post
Hang on, what? The jets defense were all over us. The Broncos offense put up 10points. Mcgahee Had 18 yards on 12 carries. The other RBs had 30 yards on 13 carries. Tebow threw for 100 yards. The only time the offense wasnt completly and utterly smashed by the jets defense was the last drive, where tebow ran and passed well. It even required an utterly unexplainable decision by Ryan to throw the house at Tebow and give him an opportunity to run in that last TD.

Lets make no mistake, the Broncos offense is barely productive against weak defenses, and it is utter garbage against good ones.
THANK YOU!!

This is really all it boils down to.
__________________

Props to BK for the sig
"Dying ain't much of a living, boy" -Josey Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanHope View Post
R4L does security, and strips on the weekend.
He told me the best part is being able to wear the same uniform to both jobs.
Raiderz4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 01:28 AM    (permalink
Ness
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Posts: 21,495
Reputation: 2355103
Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
I agree on Gabbert, but you call a spade a spade, not send them into another category because of a subjective view. Gabbert was a top 10 pick, he's a rookie, he's under performing, and losing despite a top 5 D and a top RB.

You do realize that Tebow has 5 game winning drives right? That's not the defense... I agree that the Defense is keeping them in games, but how can you say they are "winning" games for them?
And Vince Young had a six game winning streak in 2006. Didn't make him a good quarterback. That is what this boils down to.

The defense is winning games for the Broncos because they allowing what happened to the Lions happen with any other opponent. If this happens again, if the run game doesn't work out, can Tebow pass the ball to bring his team back?
__________________

"Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
-San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
Ness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 01:45 AM    (permalink
Ness
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Posts: 21,495
Reputation: 2355103
Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zycho32 View Post
Taking the comments one by one;

The concerns about QBs being abused and having to be specifically drafted to run the Option is a key concern. It goes back to finding the right pieces for a Non-Conventional offense to work. And in this case, it takes a very special talent to make such an offense work at the Professional level due to the raised bar in athletic ability and skillsets. Most just think that in this case, it means he has one or two too many weaknesses to run the standard offense. But be fair for a moment; how fundamentally different is the Option from a Pro-Style Offense these days? I can see the argument about a Prehistoric Option formation, back before the Ancient T saw the light of day. But innovation can breathe life into even the Option and make it capable of an all-around attack on defenses.

For instance, Denver's current Offense either is or is very close to the Spread Option. This would actually be more devastating if Tebow were more accurate because it still utilizes pass-heavy packages and multiple downfield targets, allowing for a long strike capacity even during those 3rd and Longs and twenty-plus point deficits you've mentioned.

As for recievers, you're definitely not going to get the superstars in Free Agency or the like, and divas are out of the question. But so what? Go through the draft and look for no-nonsense blue collar types who can make plays and if necessary replenish the recieving corps every couple of years if they leave.

And in all Fairness, not only would there be much less talk of Tebow being unconventional if the D still played like crap, but you can bet there would be far far less dissing of the whole process. Tebow would probably be evaluated more as a work in progress than as a savior and be judged more fairly as a result.

Vince Young's an interesting case to be sure, but not in the way you expect. That whole situation brought up the perception that you have to apparently throw for 3000+ yards and over two dozen Touchdowns before you can be deemed a good QB, or have an effect on a Football Game that wasn't negative. 'Oh he didn't throw for 300 yards? Just 160? Only one TD? Replace this clown!'. Or, at least that would be coming from the uneducated.
Why not just do what the league has shown to be successful instead of trying to reinvent the wheel? Especially in this day and age? Will fans and ownership really be patient for a new style of offense that doesn't seem like it would work based on some of the details I outlined? That make take years to evolve? Is the Tebow investment really worth it when we've seen that it could just be a fluke? (Vince Young in 2006). I mean good luck converting third and longs, and good luck scoring a good amount of points when your defense and run game fail you.

And searching the draft for "blue collar" receivers isn't enough. You need talent at that position to succeed on offense plain and simple. There was another Broncos fan in here just complaining about the amount of drops from the receivers on the Denver offense (which was just an attempt to deflect blame from Tebow's horrible accuracy but that's another story). It doesn't even have anything to do with diva receivers. Money comes into play here in contracts with incentives. Receivers are all about getting the ball and their money these days. Receivers won't want to come to Denver unless they are having trouble finding work (over the hill veterans) or you draft them (inexperienced rookies).
__________________

"Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
-San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
Ness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 02:24 AM    (permalink
Zycho32
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 635
Reputation: 103854
Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Zycho32 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Why not just do what the league has shown to be successful instead of trying to reinvent the wheel? Especially in this day and age? Will fans and ownership really be patient for a new style of offense that doesn't seem like it would work based on some of the details I outlined? That make take years to evolve? Is the Tebow investment really worth it when we've seen that it could just be a fluke? (Vince Young in 2006). I mean good luck converting third and longs, and good luck scoring a good amount of points when your defense and run game fail you.
Probably because Tebow- oddly enough like Michael Vick before him- carries the sort of publicity that will still put butts in seats and media attention on an otherwise marginally talented squad. Take Tebow out of the equation, then Denver becomes another rebuilding bottom feeder. And unfortunately his weaknesses make the Conventional styles impossible to execute on the field. So, you ultimately have two choices;

1. Dump him, go into rebuilding mode, take a hit on paid attendance and media focus. (The Attendance factor being key here, as $ seems to be as important as winning 'Especially in this day and age')

2. Keep him, use him, spend every dang moment between games- and in the ensuing off-season- working with his play reading and arm mechanics. And in the process get a healthy surge of attention and cash from paying customers as well as a ton of speculation up to next year about how much further the team can go.

Quote:
And searching the draft for "blue collar" receivers isn't enough. You need talent at that position to succeed on offense plain and simple. There was another Broncos fan in here just complaining about the amount of drops from the receivers on the Denver offense (which was just an attempt to deflect blame from Tebow's horrible accuracy but that's another story). It doesn't even have anything to do with diva receivers. Money comes into play here in contracts with incentives. Receivers are all about getting the ball and their money these days. Receivers won't want to come to Denver unless they are having trouble finding work (over the hill veterans) or you draft them (inexperienced rookies).
I had no idea 'Blue Collar' meant 'Total Scrub'. Is that what it means to you?

Do you think buying Elite talent at WR in Free Agency is really the way to go even if you ditch Tebow and go conventional? Those same guys wouldn't come to Denver anyway because the team would simply blow. Maybe if you tossed them Top Dollar figures to begin with, but that's just as likely to cripple the team. No matter what you'd be going with rookies and cheap vets who either are going down in their careers or are simply on the fringe.

So drafting a potential Blue Chipper at WR is the best bet for an immediate air talent, and this is where 'Blue Collar' comes in. That sort of intangible is supposed to mean the guy comes to work whether the dang ball is getting to him or not. It's supposed to mean he's at least willing to take on defenders in blocking situations, and hit the playbooks. He may not stay beyond his rookie contract, but he'll do the job until the contract ends.
Zycho32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 03:44 AM    (permalink
Ness
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Posts: 21,495
Reputation: 2355103
Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zycho32 View Post
Probably because Tebow- oddly enough like Michael Vick before him- carries the sort of publicity that will still put butts in seats and media attention on an otherwise marginally talented squad. Take Tebow out of the equation, then Denver becomes another rebuilding bottom feeder. And unfortunately his weaknesses make the Conventional styles impossible to execute on the field. So, you ultimately have two choices;

1. Dump him, go into rebuilding mode, take a hit on paid attendance and media focus. (The Attendance factor being key here, as $ seems to be as important as winning 'Especially in this day and age')

2. Keep him, use him, spend every dang moment between games- and in the ensuing off-season- working with his play reading and arm mechanics. And in the process get a healthy surge of attention and cash from paying customers as well as a ton of speculation up to next year about how much further the team can go.
If you build a team that is designed to win year in and year out (Steelers, Patriots, Ravens, etc.) you'll put fans in the seats. You don't need a single player with a gimmick to draw fan attendance. A team that wins will do that for you regardless. The money will come with a team that is designed for success. And if Tebow and the Broncos don't win, fans will turn on him like they did Vince Young and any other player. Losing grows thin. Hopefully if they do decide to stick with Tebow and this unconventional offense they are in the playoffs year after year. Because if they aren't, Tebow is going to bare the brunt of the blame when the team loses. Except for the apologists that will defend Tebow no matter what happens.

Tebow is supposed to have all of those mechanic issues worked out before you get to the NFL. Now you are in a situation that due to a few fluke wins and national media attention could cloud the organization's judgement and pass one someone that could really help them out at the quarterback position in the NFL draft.

And you don't think the Broncos are in rebuilding mode? Being second in the AFC West isn't that huge of an accomplishment. Come on now.


I had no idea 'Blue Collar' meant 'Total Scrub'. Is that what it means to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zycho32 View Post
Do you think buying Elite talent at WR in Free Agency is really the way to go even if you ditch Tebow and go conventional? Those same guys wouldn't come to Denver anyway because the team would simply blow. Maybe if you tossed them Top Dollar figures to begin with, but that's just as likely to cripple the team. No matter what you'd be going with rookies and cheap vets who either are going down in their careers or are simply on the fringe.

So drafting a potential Blue Chipper at WR is the best bet for an immediate air talent, and this is where 'Blue Collar' comes in. That sort of intangible is supposed to mean the guy comes to work whether the dang ball is getting to him or not. It's supposed to mean he's at least willing to take on defenders in blocking situations, and hit the playbooks. He may not stay beyond his rookie contract, but he'll do the job until the contract ends.
You need playmakers at the receiver position. That's my point. Whether it's through the draft or in free agency. You can't get by with the guys that Denver is using now. And it's going to be difficult to find guys that want to come to Denver and just do dirty work (a lot of run blocking and not catching passes) unless they're guys designed to do just that. And when the team gets down because the run is shut down and you need to pass, it will be be obvious that you need more than guys that are just adequate receivers.
__________________

"Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
-San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
Ness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 06:55 AM    (permalink
jsagan77
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,405
Reputation: -62345
jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77
Default

OMG it's like you have to force feed logic....

No **** no one thinks that Gabbert is on a Peyton Manning career arc.. The point is that Manning was pretty bad as a rookie and no one gave up on him because you just don't do that. Brees wasn't a bust because he was a 2nd round pick who the Chargers knew would need grooming and time to grow.. That worked out. Ponder will get the same respect, as will Bradford, and so should Tebow...

And you don't think Tebow has drive? LMAO....

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular View Post
The hell it's implied! No one thinks Gabbert is on a Peyton Manning career arc--even a Byron Leftwich career arc. The dude effing sucks! Where the **** does Gabbert come in to the conversation about Tim Tebow. You didn't even make a strawman fallacy because it hasn't even been remotely mentioned in regards to Gabbert as a better QB.

And Drew Brees WAS a bust for three years with SD. SD was the bottom of the barrel and Brees was the epitome of the doldrums SF had reached. You don't draft a QB #4 overall if you are giving your current QB a pass.

But this is beside the point. When Peyton Manning played as a rookie, he ACTUALLY looked good. He had good mechanics. And he had the drive to make it work. Tim Tebow looks like ****.

So that's why people are calling him a ****** QB. Because he IS a ****** QB.
jsagan77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 07:05 AM    (permalink
jsagan77
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,405
Reputation: -62345
jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77 jsagan77
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ness View Post
And Vince Young had a six game winning streak in 2006. Didn't make him a good quarterback. That is what this boils down to.

The defense is winning games for the Broncos because they allowing what happened to the Lions happen with any other opponent. If this happens again, if the run game doesn't work out, can Tebow pass the ball to bring his team back?
No one is arguing that Tim Tebow is a good freaking QB, I am arguing that he elevates his team. Vince Young's record as a starter was 31:18. Would you rather have that or the record of a Matt Schaub who's obviously the better passer but 32:34 as a starter? It all comes down to who's going to win games for you and if that's Young or Tebow putting up mediocre pass numbers and descent run stats with a descent run game and D then what's the big deal?
jsagan77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 07:18 AM    (permalink
Ness
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Posts: 21,495
Reputation: 2355103
Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
No one is arguing that Tim Tebow is a good freaking QB, I am arguing that he elevates his team. Vince Young's record as a starter was 31:18. Would you rather have that or the record of a Matt Schaub who's obviously the better passer but 32:34 as a starter? It all comes down to who's going to win games for you and if that's Young or Tebow putting up mediocre pass numbers and descent run stats with a descent run game and D then what's the big deal?
Anyone can elevate their team by playing the rah rah card. It really comes down to having talented players and being able to execute X's and O's and scheme logically. Tim Tebow didn't magically make Von Miller play better with his positive attitude. Von Miller was already a talented player to begin with. He didn't change Champ Bailey's coverage skills. Everyone is giving the same praise to Tebow that Vince Young received when his team stepped up it's defensively play. Yes Vince Young has a nice win-loss record. Where is he and how is he doing now? Football is a team sport, which is why you can't take a win-loss record for any quarterback at face value. There is a reason why Vince Young is second string on the Eagles and playing terrible. During his days with the Titans it was the defense and Chris Johnson carrying that football team, not Vince.

And the comparison to Schaub is ridiculous. Schaub and that offense has been the one constant for the Texans since he's practically been there. Houston FINALLY acquired a defense that can stop folks this season and make plays. Again, football is a team sport. Matt Schaub was never the problem for the Texans.

The big deal is that it can't be sustained. That is what everyone is harping about when they crack down on Tebow and the Denver offense compared to most people who are just living in the moment and thinking this is actually sustainable. That's why Vince is on the bench and guys like Schaub are still starters. Because they can pass the football accurately from the pocket. Tebow will probably suffer a similar fate to Young if he doesn't become a better passer. What he's doing now in this offense though will not work long term.
__________________

"Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
-San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

Last edited by Ness : 12-03-2011 at 07:20 AM.
Ness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 08:48 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dodge City
Posts: 7,696
Reputation: 1222489
FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

One thing I can say about Tebow, he elevates the emotional volume of a football team. We aren't dealing in abstracts here. At its most basic, football is played on its highest level from pee wee to the NFL with an incredible level of emotion and desire.

The biggest, fastest and most skilled players are losing football games every Friday, Saturday and Sunday across this country because of a lack of discipline, intelligence and genuine passion for the game.

What's the reason that Vernon Gholston was really a bust??
Why is Aaron Maybin making plays for the NY Jets??

I remember reading an article in The Sporting News about Junior Seau before he was drafted in 1990 by the Chargers, and this line has always stuck out to me overthe years; "Junior Seau plays the game of football with an intensity that borders on fear, as of something bad will happen to him otherwise."

Yes, a player must first be good/skilled to earn the respect of his teammates. But after that it's the guys who bring it every single play and out-effort the guy in front of them who get others to play at their level.

What's the most positive thing you can say about an NFL prospect other than Player X runs a 4.2???
Player X has a 'non-stop motor'.

Emotion/passion/intensity/desire. However you want to define it, some players bring this to the table every game and some don't.
Your QB doesn't always need to bring this to the table vocally, but his play should demonstrate what's going in inside his heart.

Sometimes that means throwing a perfect 25 yard strike between a safety and cornerback on 3rd and 8 just as a 260# LB is about to bury his helmet into the small of your back.
Sometimes it means rolling out of the pocket, tucking the football and running over a safety to get to the first down marker.

The Broncos could do worse than Tebow.

I still believe he can improve as a passer because his history shows it, and I'm sorry but a 6'3, 245# Jesus freak QB who benches almost 500# and squats nearly 600# CAN run the ball 15-20 times a game and survive in the NFL.
__________________

Last edited by FUNBUNCHER : 12-03-2011 at 09:17 AM.
FUNBUNCHER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 09:10 AM    (permalink
J-Mike88
All-Pro
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Titletown USA
Posts: 9,886
Reputation: 1472737
J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.J-Mike88 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Anyone can elevate their team by playing the rah rah card.
Definitely not true.
J-Mike88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 09:23 AM    (permalink
Ness
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Posts: 21,495
Reputation: 2355103
Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Definitely not true.
Great counterargument.
__________________

"Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
-San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
Ness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 11:41 AM    (permalink
Raiderz4Life
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: R4L 3:16 says I just whipped your ass
Posts: 15,139
Reputation: 3152801
Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Raiderz4Life is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
OMG it's like you have to force feed logic....

No **** no one thinks that Gabbert is on a Peyton Manning career arc.. The point is that Manning was pretty bad as a rookie and no one gave up on him because you just don't do that. Brees wasn't a bust because he was a 2nd round pick who the Chargers knew would need grooming and time to grow.. That worked out. Ponder will get the same respect, as will Bradford, and so should Tebow...

And you don't think Tebow has drive? LMAO....
LOL That's funny

Peyton Manning didn't look like absolute dog **** even in his rookie year. He showed a great amount of promise. Brees was a total bust his first years...he didn't do a gtdamn thing with San Diego...there's a reason they have Philip Rivers now and not Brees, he didn't do anything until his contract year, Ponder and Bradford, Newton, Dalton, have all shown they can be a QB at the NFL level, they show flashes of being good...Gabbert and Tebow...don't even flicker of being good NFL QBs. Tebow shines like hell as a good RB/H-back though.
__________________

Props to BK for the sig
"Dying ain't much of a living, boy" -Josey Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanHope View Post
R4L does security, and strips on the weekend.
He told me the best part is being able to wear the same uniform to both jobs.
Raiderz4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 12:32 PM    (permalink
nobodyinparticular
Hall of Famer
Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Not Oakland, CA
Posts: 21,301
Reputation: 2529147
nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I'm done with this conversation. I did a very good job ignoring the fan boys for a while. Now I'm done.

The only thing worse than a thread full of skilled trolls is a group of unskilled, starry-eyed homers.
__________________

Oldie but a goodie.
nobodyinparticular is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.