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Old 01-18-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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I dislike the Rooney Rule. I think its actually insulting to minorities in some ways. But I do recognize it's impact as well. It has worked. Mike Tomlin would never be a coach right now if not for the Rooney Rule.

What I don't like is how it's become a joke. You see teams actively look to get their Rooney Rule candidate out of the way. Instead of actually looking for qualified candidates, it's almost like "Hey, lets just interview the RB coach so we get this **** out of the way"

They're making a mockery of it.

And let's also address the elephant in the room: Coaching positions is a lot like any other career field: Connections is awfully important to getting employment. How many times have we seen GMs get hired and already know who they want to hire? Tons. How many times were those candidates ppl they worked with before? Almost always.

That's how it is. Connections lead to jobs. And minority candidates simply don't have the same connections. So they're already at a disadvantage.

That's the real problem here. We always hear how the NFL is a frat. Well, in that frat, hiring buddies is often done instead of hiring "the best man for the job"

We see it all the time. Not just in the NFL, but in the corporate world too. It's all over the place.

And that's where minorities are at a severe disadvantage. A lot of career opportunities are about establishing the proper network, and if that network is in power already, it's simply a domino effect of inequality that dominates the industry.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
I fully agree with all of this. I honestly didn't know who Ray Horton was two years ago (though I didn't know who Ray Bradley was either I'm sure). Part of the success of the Rooney Rule is that there isn't as large of a backlog of overly-qualified black coaches waiting for opportunities.
I also agree about the backlog. Two years ago Perry Fewell was on the list for many teams. Now after back to back season with defenses in the bottom 5, he can't sniff an interview even with the Rooney Rule. Which makes me sad because I would love to get rid of him.

Also Horton needs to get rid of his 14 year girl, went on vacation to Jamaica and got my hair braided, haircut before he gets a head coaching job. You have to present yourself in a certain manner to be the face of a franchise. And that applies to people of any color. No one wants to hire the Ryans for a similar reason. Except the Jets, but we all know they are clueless.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Hurricanes25 View Post
Ross did withdraw his name from consideration from the Jets job, a job he probably could have gotten if he wanted it. (I certainly don't blame him for not wanting the job). Now I'm not saying there isn't prejudice but Ross is being choosy. Again, I don't blame him for that.
Actually, I'm fairly sure he was not being considered long before he came out with that statement.

In related news, the Jets hire John Idzik as their new GM! He's not black, but I'm a fan. One of his sons also goes to my alma mater, so that counts for something.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Or if we are doing that how many white running backs are there? Should there being a rule where every team has to tryout a white running back for their starting job every year?
You're starting to look like a fool. See my previous post about the differences between objective analysis and subjective criteria.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Seamus2602 View Post
Or if we are doing that how many white running backs are there? Should there being a rule where every team has to tryout a white running back for their starting job every year?
..........

Black people are, for the most part, naturally better than white people at that position. Black people are naturally more athletic in general. That's a fact.

What it seems like you're inferring here (intentionally or not) is that white people are naturally better at making informed decisions, and in that case it doesn't surprise me that you don't see a problem here.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
6 minority NFL head coaches in the 83 years of NFL history when the Rooney Rule was implemented in 2003 (only 1 before 1989, a hispanic). But I'm sure those were the only six men in 83 years who knew how to coach.
And what the NFL did between 1920 and 2003 is evidence of discrimination now?
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I dislike the Rooney Rule. I think its actually insulting to minorities in some ways. But I do recognize it's impact as well. It has worked. Mike Tomlin would never be a coach right now if not for the Rooney Rule.

What I don't like is how it's become a joke. You see teams actively look to get their Rooney Rule candidate out of the way. Instead of actually looking for qualified candidates, it's almost like "Hey, lets just interview the RB coach so we get this **** out of the way"

They're making a mockery of it.

And let's also address the elephant in the room: Coaching positions is a lot like any other career field: Connections is awfully important to getting employment. How many times have we seen GMs get hired and already know who they want to hire? Tons. How many times were those candidates ppl they worked with before? Almost always.

That's how it is. Connections lead to jobs. And minority candidates simply don't have the same connections. So they're already at a disadvantage.

That's the real problem here. We always hear how the NFL is a frat. Well, in that frat, hiring buddies is often done instead of hiring "the best man for the job"

We see it all the time. Not just in the NFL, but in the corporate world too. It's all over the place.

And that's where minorities are at a severe disadvantage. A lot of career opportunities are about establishing the proper network, and if that network is in power already, it's simply a domino effect of inequality that dominates the industry.
Even if they aren't really considered, you get experience in the interview process for when you might be a legitimate consideration. I think they should waive the Rooney rule if you are promoting from within the organization however.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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I find the notion that NFL owners conspire to keep the black man down absolutely hilarious. You know what NFL owners want over everything? To make money. After that winning is the biggest void and also brings home more coin than say not winning.

If a black candidate was the best option to winning games you can bet your ass that he would be hired over the purple, orange, white, grey, or even a soul-less ginger.

I didn't realize Jemele Hill had so many draft countdown accounts. Are we going to start a conversation on how the rich white folks are keeping black quarterbacks from seeing the field?
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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I find the notion that NFL owners conspire to keep the black man down absolutely hilarious. You know what NFL owners want over everything? To make money. After that winning is the biggest void and also brings home more coin than say not winning.

If a black candidate was the best option to winning games you can bet your ass that he would be hired over the purple, orange, white, grey, or even a soul-less ginger.

I didn't realize Jemele Hill had so many draft countdown accounts. Are we going to start a conversation on how the rich white folks are keeping black quarterbacks from seeing the field?
You don't have to conspire to be racist. That's not how it works.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by yo123 View Post
..........

Black people are, for the most part, naturally better than white people at that position. Black people are naturally more athletic in general. That's a fact.

What it seems like you're inferring here (intentionally or not) is that white people are naturally better at making informed decisions, and in that case it doesn't surprise me that you don't see a problem here.
**** off! I'm doing nothing of the sort and do not try to put words into my mouth. I am simply pointing out that simply looking at the the number there are and using that for evidence of discrimination or not is lazy and stupid.
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In Football the object is for the Field General to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the Defence by hitting his Receivers with deadly accuracy, in spite of the Blitz, even if he has to use the Shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack which punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy’s Defensive Line.

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Old 01-18-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Seamus2602 View Post
**** off! I'm doing nothing of the sort and do not try to put words into my mouth. I am simply pointing out that simply looking at the the number there are and using that for evidence of discrimination or not is lazy and stupid.
Like I said, I don't think that you did it intentionally, but it's easily inferred from your reasoning there.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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And what the NFL did between 1920 and 2003 is evidence of discrimination now?
I don't know if there is active discrimination now. I do know that many NFL owners are racist, because most human beings are racist. Especially human beings raised in a racist society.

I already said that I think the Rooney Rule has in many ways been its own worst enemy. It has led to more minority hiring, which has led to people who philosophically disagree with it to point at the NFL and say "see, we don't need the rule because minorities are now getting hired".
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Like I said, I don't think that you did it intentionally, but it's easily inferred from your reasoning there.
I'm not inferring that, intentionally or otherwise. The lack of minority candidates in Head Coaching positions does not automatically mean racism. We need to look at why there are less minority coaches and fix that rather than simply shout racism.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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I think we should all just agree to disagree and move on before this devolves any further.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Actually, I'm fairly sure he was not being considered long before he came out with that statement.

In related news, the Jets hire John Idzik as their new GM! He's not black, but I'm a fan. One of his sons also goes to my alma mater, so that counts for something.
My mistake then. I for whatever reason thought he was a leading candidate along with Gamble and Caldwell.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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I don't know if there is active discrimination now. I do know that many NFL owners are racist, because most human beings are racist. Especially human beings raised in a racist society.

I already said that I think the Rooney Rule has in many ways been its own worst enemy. It has led to more minority hiring, which has led to people who philosophically disagree with it to point at the NFL and say "see, we don't need the rule because minorities are now getting hired".
You don't know that. If you knew that many NFL owners were racist you'd be able to tell me which ones are racist. I'd also contest the idea that most people are racist.
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In Football the object is for the Field General to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the Defence by hitting his Receivers with deadly accuracy, in spite of the Blitz, even if he has to use the Shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack which punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy’s Defensive Line.

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Old 01-18-2013, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Also, it would help to have more minority owners. But that's a type of affirmative action that almost everyone would have a problem with. The NFL is a cadre controlled exclusively by old white men.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Seamus2602 View Post
You don't know that. If you knew that many NFL owners were racist you'd be able to tell me which ones are racist. I'd also contest the idea that most people are racist.
Well, you're wrong. Sorry, if you want objective evidence of racism at an individual level, you don't understand how race works, and I can't help you there unless you have months of time to do a lot of reading.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Also, it would help to have more minority owners. But that's a type of affirmative action that almost everyone would have a problem with. The NFL is a cadre controlled exclusively by old white men.
It would also be pretty complicated to achieve. How many black billionaires are there?
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Originally Posted by George Carlin

In Football the object is for the Field General to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the Defence by hitting his Receivers with deadly accuracy, in spite of the Blitz, even if he has to use the Shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack which punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy’s Defensive Line.

In Baseball the object is to go home and be safe.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Well, you're wrong. Sorry, if you want objective evidence of racism at an individual level, you don't understand how race works, and I can't help you there unless you have months of time to do a lot of reading.
You said that many NFL owners are racist. Can you tell me which ones?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin

In Football the object is for the Field General to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the Defence by hitting his Receivers with deadly accuracy, in spite of the Blitz, even if he has to use the Shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack which punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy’s Defensive Line.

In Baseball the object is to go home and be safe.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Also, it would help to have more minority owners. But that's a type of affirmative action that almost everyone would have a problem with. The NFL is a cadre controlled exclusively by old white men.
I think this will slowly change. The landscape of America is changing. Khan just bought the Jaguars. He had to go through hoops to do it, and had to get denied by the Rams before he got his chance, but it's a step in the right direction.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Seamus2602 View Post
You said that many NFL owners are racist. Can you tell me which ones?
Do you even read the things I write?
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Seamus2602 View Post
You don't know that. If you knew that many NFL owners were racist you'd be able to tell me which ones are racist. I'd also contest the idea that most people are racist.
This is the point I don't think you're quite grasping. I don't believe there is an active attempt not to hire black coaches going on amongst NFL ownership. But most NFL owners are old white men ranging from their 50s to their 90s. These guys grew up in an era where discrimination was absolutely rampant and it has left a long lasting effect on them.

They (hopefully aren't) outwardly racist, but having grown up in an era where the white man was universally believed to be superior has left a mark. Though willing to interview a minority, they aren't giving that guy the same chance as they would be with a white guy.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
This is the point I don't think you're quite grasping. I don't believe there is an active attempt not to hire black coaches going on amongst NFL ownership. But most NFL owners are old white men ranging from their 50s to their 90s. These guys grew up in an era where discrimination was absolutely rampant and it has left a long lasting effect on them.

They (hopefully aren't) outwardly racist, but having grown up in an era where the white man was universally believed to be superior has left a mark. Though willing to interview a minority, they aren't giving that guy the same chance as they would be with a white guy.
But that is presumptive, unprovable and completely subjective. If there is active discrimination that needs to end but if there isn't then the only standard should be best available.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin

In Football the object is for the Field General to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the Defence by hitting his Receivers with deadly accuracy, in spite of the Blitz, even if he has to use the Shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack which punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy’s Defensive Line.

In Baseball the object is to go home and be safe.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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But that is presumptive, unprovable and completely subjective. If there is active discrimination that needs to end but if there isn't then the only standard should be best available.
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