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Old 12-15-2011, 06:47 PM    (permalink
Don Vito
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I am an Ole Miss fan so take your pick. Now is a pretty good option for the Black Bears. ****.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:42 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
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Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
Not that I don't love a reference from wikipedia about a magazine that you had never heard of before you needed it to support your argument, but the call is still questionable. If you look at the calls in that magazine they're all big time situations, which significantly narrows down the playing field. It's like how there are 100 schools in the Bloomberg Business Week top 100, but only 117 apply. You can say you have a top 100 business school in the country if your school ranks at 75, but really you're 75/117 and half the people ranking your school may have thought it sucked. If you look at the way the sampling was taken they ask about certain plays in particular stating: "In addition to being verifiably correct, the calls were selected based on prominence, difficulty, the stage on which they were made and their impact." meaning even if 40% of the refs polled thought they made the wrong call it still could have possibly made it into the magazine.

Not to mention that these are the same guys who defend the tuck rule and the Calvin Johnson play. They defend their own. It can be used as a piece of evidence to your argument, but it's in no way an end all to the debate.

The crux of the argument is that the interference occurred before the ball got there. That picture posted above isn't accurate because it shows a screenshot immediately after Gamble's blatant club to Sharpe. Before the ball got there Gamble had no route to the ball so with Sharpe on his inside hip he pushed Sharpe's shoulder and secured inside positioning. Sharpe, being unwilling to give up his positioning, stopped his momentum and held fast against Gamble. Any contact past that point was from a result of the club, and for the most part wasn't unreasonable. Sharpe made an effort to get his head around and play the ball. Gamble had a clear shot at it and didn't make the play. Given the nature of the play (National Championship-officials generally call less penalties towards the end of close games), the situation (fade route- officials are generally more lenient with contact), and the fact that Gamble wasn't really an innocent bystander they should have just let the play be.

Honestly most non-Miami/OSU fans are relatively split on this issue, and given the situation that it occurred in there probably shouldn't have been a flag since it's so questionable to begin with. I think the way the play turned out should have been acceptable to everyone. Nobody was completely innocent, yet Gamble had a shot at the catch, but didn't make it. Let the players decide the game on the field.

I can't believe I've spent this much time defending Miami as a BC fan. It's a little sickening to be honest.
I haven't read the article so I won't comment on it, but just because you can explain some scenario which lessens it's validity does not make it so. Unless you can show that the scenario you just explained played out then your just building a strawman.

No offense but your argument is probably one of the more moronic ones I've ever heard in this debate and I've had many of them....

The "crux" of your argument is that because it was a major deciding play on a huge stage, the rule shouldn't have been called. I cannot disagree with you more, your argument that PI is vague/ticky tacky etc. would only be perpetuated if refs were to call certain plays differently. A rule should be called the same way from the first play of the season all the way until the last one of the NC game. By your definition Sharpe should have been able to flat out tackle Gamble but it shouldn't have been called because it was the last play.

I'd be more inclined to respect your opinion if you were trying to say that it wasn't PI like most people who oppose the call do. I can't even begin to fathom the logic behind not making a call by the rule because it was the last play of a NC game. Even if refs call less penalties usually, it doesn't mean that they don't call any. If there was PI on the play and the ref saw it yet didn't throw the flag, your essentially cheating the players and the fans.

Regardless of what explanation that you want to give for why Sharpe hooked him, it doesn't matter as the hook is clear PI regardless of situation.

Your argument that the ball wasn't there yet is ludicrous and shows your clear lack of knowledge of PI as a rule, PI can occur at any point while the ball is in the air.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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Most of what you said has very little to do with my argument at all. The points that were made were:

1) During a play of that importance the referees better be damn sure they're making the right call before they threw the flag. Huge hesitation there, and by any measure certainly not a blatant play by any stretch of the imagination. If the BJ was unsure then for the love of god don't throw the flag.

2) There is contact in any fade route after the ball is thrown. Both players are operating in a small space, and the ball is thrown almost immediately. Regardless of how the rule is stated there is generally an understanding on how to call that play or else there would be grounds for PI on virtually any fade route.

3) Gamble initiated contact with his left arm. It's clear as day in the video at 1:45.
It's a push off and by rule OPI.
"Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass."-Illegal

That was equally as ticky-tack as Sharpe's transgression, but is pass interference nonetheless. Without it he had absolutely no route to the ball because Sharpe had played him perfectly. If he had simply gone to the ball and tried to run through Sharpe because Sharpe wasn't looking at the ball at the time, then yes there is grounds for pass interference, but he physically rerouted Sharpe and Sharpe having lost his positioning because of the push off held his ground. There is contact, but there wouldn't have been without Gamble's push off. At that point there has been contact from both parties so either offset, or let the play go because the play actually had a really legitimate shot at going either way.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:38 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
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Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
Most of what you said has very little to do with my argument at all. The points that were made were:

1) During a play of that importance the referees better be damn sure they're making the right call before they threw the flag. Huge hesitation there, and by any measure certainly not a blatant play by any stretch of the imagination. If the BJ was unsure then for the love of god don't throw the flag.

2) There is contact in any fade route after the ball is thrown. Both players are operating in a small space, and the ball is thrown almost immediately. Regardless of how the rule is stated there is generally an understanding on how to call that play or else there would be grounds for PI on virtually any fade route.

3) Gamble initiated contact with his left arm. It's clear as day in the video at 1:45.
It's a push off and by rule OPI.
"Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass."-Illegal

That was equally as ticky-tack as Sharpe's transgression, but is pass interference nonetheless. Without it he had absolutely no route to the ball because Sharpe had played him perfectly. If he had simply gone to the ball and tried to run through Sharpe because Sharpe wasn't looking at the ball at the time, then yes there is grounds for pass interference, but he physically rerouted Sharpe and Sharpe having lost his positioning because of the push off held his ground. There is contact, but there wouldn't have been without Gamble's push off. At that point there has been contact from both parties so either offset, or let the play go because the play actually had a really legitimate shot at going either way.
I see what your saying about the club and your not wrong that it could have been called that way however I would venture to say that this is where your cancel out theory would come into play as it was past 5 yards and Sharpe had his hands on Gamble still so the club essentially got Sharpe's hand off of him.

I understand contact on a fade route but the fact is that this still comes down to the hook on the hip. Which is not common in any play as you are told pretty much straight up as a defender if you hook a part of the receivers body you are going to get PI called on you.

The fact that their was hesitation implies to me that the ref actually considered not throwing it as you would claim he should have yet decided after a moment of contemplation that it had to be thrown. It won't be the first play where flags come in late on PI.

The fact is that it can be argued until all of us are dead, but you cannot deny that Sharpe hooked him with his right hand, this is a well known cause for a PI flag to be thrown in any situation and thus I have to agree with the call.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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The fact is that it can be argued until all of us are dead, but you cannot deny that Sharpe hooked him with his right hand, this is a well known cause for a PI flag to be thrown in any situation and thus I have to agree with the call.
I guess I can live with that.

I guess it comes down to me is how the fade was called. That is not where Krenzel wanted to go with the ball, and had the play developed appropriately Krenzel would have thrown it closer to the back of the endzone and Gamble would have had a jump ball contest with Sharpe. However, Gamble accepted a relatively free release to the outside trying to do this. The contact up to that point had been within the flow of the play. Nothing Sharpe had done to that point IMO had done anything to truly interfere with Gamble.

From what I saw any contact that really had any major bearing on the play came from the point after the club. I think it was pretty much a bump and guide up to that point. Had Gamble kept his arms down and just tried to get to the ball from his position he probably could have got a legitimate PI call. However, he used a pushoff to get an advantage and all the contact from there is a moot point.

It just doesn't make sense to me to call the play like that with any consistency, because if what Sharpe did isn't allowed, how do you stop that play?
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Old 12-15-2011, 09:20 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
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It just doesn't make sense to me to call the play like that with any consistency, because if what Sharpe did isn't allowed, how do you stop that play?
It definitely isn't easy defending anything on the goal line, thats to be assured. The way the game is these days the offense is always at an advantage.

Now if you want to talk to me about how I think the rule itself is full of crap I'm with you all day on it, it clearly needs more definition and refs have been known to claim that it is one of the hardest calls they make in any game. Damned if you do damned if you don't really.
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