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Old 01-17-2012, 09:32 AM    (permalink
King Carls 5 Year Plan
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Originally Posted by Bengalsrocket View Post
Pioli is going to build around Cassel because of how hard it would be to replace him. It's not like he can just go out there and get Andrew Luck or RG3.
these are telling times for Pioli. his ability to win a SB w/o Belichick will be determined in these next few years. he came to KC in 2009 with a blank canvas. he was allowed to change coaches, rosters and even nonfootball office help (secretaries, custodians, ect). he seems to have glued himself to the success (or failure) of Matt Cassel.

IMO, the Chiefs won't be selecting as high as #11 again during Piolis time. IF and thats a huge if, the Chiefs... no.. I mean Pioli feel that QB is a concern for the future, they will never have a better opportunity to trade up and draft one than they do this year.

its amazing to me that a guy that rode Tom Brady's coattails doesn't have more respect for the QB position. Tom Brady is a once in a lifetime find that late in the draft. i hope Pioli realizes this and excepts that the Chiefs need to figure the QB out for now and the future.
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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There is no way in hell the Colts trade down with us or anyone else. They take Luck as they should and don't look back.
Yeah. 11 to 2, 3, or 4 this year is an impossible leap even if Pioli wanted to do it.

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Originally Posted by King Carls 5 Year Plan View Post
these are telling times for Pioli. his ability to win a SB w/o Belichick will be determined in these next few years. he came to KC in 2009 with a blank canvas. he was allowed to change coaches, rosters and even nonfootball office help (secretaries, custodians, ect). he seems to have glued himself to the success (or failure) of Matt Cassel.

IMO, the Chiefs won't be selecting as high as #11 again during Piolis time. IF and thats a huge if, the Chiefs... no.. I mean Pioli feel that QB is a concern for the future, they will never have a better opportunity to trade up and draft one than they do this year.

its amazing to me that a guy that rode Tom Brady's coattails doesn't have more respect for the QB position. Tom Brady is a once in a lifetime find that late in the draft. i hope Pioli realizes this and excepts that the Chiefs need to figure the QB out for now and the future.
Ricky Stanzi would be a first round pick in this draft class. The future of the position is obviously not lost on Pioli. It's already been addressed. As a team that wins, you have to identify those later round guys and develop them behind a good starter. It's what Green Bay did for years (Aaron Brooks, Matt Hasselbeck, Matt Flynn) and what they do in New England.

Matt Cassel is a good starting QB. Even mentioning Tom Brady when talking about getting a QB is a bit out there. Brees, Manning, and Brady are just a special group. You do your best to build a strong team and scout to the best of your ability in hopes of one day landing a guy like that, but you can't expect to get a Top 3 NFL QB and bank on that as your only chance to win.

Pioli likes Cassel because Cassel is the obvious leader of the team, owns it, and put up a really nice season without much to work with in the passing game in 2010 while leading a young team to an AFC West title.
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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Where do you get this stuff? You pull the most random stuff out of your ass. Ricky Stanzi would not be a first round pick this year. He wouldn't. There is no scenario in which he'd go in the first round. If he was the only person to declare this year he'd still be at best a 3rd round pick.

This is why people don't take you seriously.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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Where do you get this stuff? You pull the most random stuff out of your ass. Ricky Stanzi would not be a first round pick this year. He wouldn't. There is no scenario in which he'd go in the first round. If he was the only person to declare this year he'd still be at best a 3rd round pick.

This is why people don't take you seriously.
Why would he not be a first round pick? Last year's draft class was sick. One of the best ever. And there were a lot of stupid teams drafting. The Redskins, Bills, Cardinals, and Seahawks all passed on drafting a QB at all. No one is mistaking any of those organizations as competent entities.

This year's draft class isn't that good. One mega-elite prospect, a very good one, and a couple projects. Stanzi checks out in every category with at least a plus. Arm, experience, mobility (in and out of pocket), leadership, winning, statistics, size, pro style offense (not really as important anymore, but some value it), work ethic, history of improvement each year, and intangibles.

All of these pluses and no flags or anything negative to say about the guy as a prospect. Trust me, I hated Stanzi before draft season this year when I actually stopped and looked at what he was and what he'd accomplished at Iowa... And I couldn't objectively say anything but good things about what I was coming away with.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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Where do you get this stuff? You pull the most random stuff out of your ass. Ricky Stanzi would not be a first round pick this year. He wouldn't. There is no scenario in which he'd go in the first round. If he was the only person to declare this year he'd still be at best a 3rd round pick.

This is why people don't take you seriously.
I have to agree, Stanzi wasn't and isn't anything close to a 1st round talent, nothing but a career backup who has yet to prove to anybody that he can even hold down that job.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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I have to agree, Stanzi wasn't and isn't anything close to a 1st round talent, nothing but a career backup who has yet to prove to anybody that he can even hold down that job.
Based on what? His 28-11 career record with 3 bowl wins over major programs? 64% completion percentage, 25:6 TD/INT ratio, 8.7 YPA? Prototypical size, pro system, great leadership qualities, coming up big in big moments consistently... Having made big improvements each year as a starter at Iowa (demonstrating that he's not done growing as a player)? What makes this guy NOT a starting QB other than people just saying he isn't? Anything objective or even subjective? I'll be waiting.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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since Jan of 2000 (i really didnt want to go back farther than this. current rules almost make QB stats before this incomparable) there has been 24 oppotunities for a QB to start a Super Bowl. of those opporunities, only 5 QBs have started in the Super Bowl that were drafted in the 5th round or later. of those, 2 are 1st ballot HoFers (Kurt Warner and Tom Brady). Brad Johnson, Jake Delhomme and Matt Hasselbeck are the other 3.

in the same time period, here is the list of QBs drafted in the 1st round that started in the Super Bowl: Aaron Rodgers #24 overall, Ben Roethlisberger #11 overall, Peyton Manning #1 overall, Roethlisberger again #11 overall, Eli Manning #1 overall, Rex Grossman #22 overall, Peyton Manning again #1 overall, Roethlisberger for a 3rd time #11 overall, Donovan McNabb #2 overall, Kerry Collins #5 overall, Trent Dilfer #6 overall and Steve McNair #3 overall.

it seems much more common to draft the right QB in round 1 and make it to a SB than it is to draft a QB in round 5 or later and hope they turn into Tom Brady or Kurt Warner.

look, i'm not telling you that Stanzi sucks. he hasn't been given the opportunity to prove or disprove that. but because he hasn't proven that he sucks shouldn't deter the Chiefs from taking the player that best gives us the oppotunity to win a SB.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Ricky Stanzi would be a first round pick in this draft class.
Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Please tell me you don't actually believe this.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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The number of QBs in the Super Bowl that aren't first rounders and the number of starting QBs in the NFL who aren't first rounders isn't that far off. There are 11 starters in the NFL including Brees and Kolb who were both essentially first round picks and Matt Hasselbeck who has Jake Locker about to take his job.

And 3/12 teams in the playoffs have QBs that weren't first round picks. All 3 won at least one game.
Rodgers was developed the same way Hasselbeck was, and so was Brady - except Brady was called upon much earlier than either of those two. Cassel was done the same way and so is Stanzi.

You get a guy with all the tools and don't force him in there too early, and it's just as good as a first round pick used on a QB.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Please tell me you don't actually believe this.
Give me a reason not to. I've been waiting for one for quite some time. No one has anything. I gave reasons for, no one has an argument against it.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Give me a reason not to. I've been waiting for one for quite some time. No one has anything. I gave reasons for, no one has an argument against it.
Because teams generally don't take players with marginal physical tools who are only slightly above average players in college in the first round.
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Old 01-17-2012, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Because teams generally don't take players with marginal physical tools who are only slightly above average players in college in the first round.
Yeah they do. Besides that, he's not "marginal" in any area. How is he "marginal" physically? He's a pretty athletic QB and has prototypical size. He has a solid arm and good mobility.

He was much better than a "slightly above average" college player. When you look into it, you find this to be the case. I wasn't a fan of the guy most of his career, either. But I couldn't deny what I was seeing when watching his games and seeing how he'd developed and what kind of player he is on the field.
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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nepg. Sir. DM me your phone number. I must give you my shrink's phone number.
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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these are telling times for Pioli. his ability to win a SB w/o Belichick will be determined in these next few years. he came to KC in 2009 with a blank canvas. he was allowed to change coaches, rosters and even nonfootball office help (secretaries, custodians, ect). he seems to have glued himself to the success (or failure) of Matt Cassel.

IMO, the Chiefs won't be selecting as high as #11 again during Piolis time. IF and thats a huge if, the Chiefs... no.. I mean Pioli feel that QB is a concern for the future, they will never have a better opportunity to trade up and draft one than they do this year.

its amazing to me that a guy that rode Tom Brady's coattails doesn't have more respect for the QB position. Tom Brady is a once in a lifetime find that late in the draft. i hope Pioli realizes this and excepts that the Chiefs need to figure the QB out for now and the future.
I'm not positive I agree with that sentiment. Last year the Panthers, Titans, Jags and Vikings all grabbed a QB in the first round. That's 4 QB hungry teams that now are essentially forced to give them a shot for another 3 years. The Bengals also seem forced to give Dalton another few years after his early success. Tim Tebow has also earned himself a year or two. A lot of people are down on Sam Bradford, but there is no way Jeff Fisher will replace him within the next 2 years.

That leaves roughly 5 teams left in the NFL with a QB need. I'm counting the Browns, Seahawks, Redskins, Dolphins and the Chiefs.

The Colts will probably take Luck even though they don't "need" a QB right now. So we can just take those two off the board. RG3 and Tannehill will likely be considered the future of the franchise that drafts them. Also Flynn is going to be signed by someone this year. So 3 of the remaining 5 teams will get answered.

So let's just say that the Browns, Seahawks and Redskins all find what they believe to be the "future" of their franchise this year in one of those 3 guys.

That leaves the Dolphins and the Chiefs next year, plus anyone who gets added to the list (Possibly Raiders move on from Palmer or the Bills move on from Fitzpatrick or w/e).

I think you have a much better chance next year, competiting against potentially only 1 other franchise than you do this year, against basically 6 other franchises (Again, counting the Colts taking Luck).

Even with a pick later than 11, If there are two potential studs next year (Barkley plus another) then you won't have anyone to fight for it.

Edit: I don't own a crystal ball - I really don't know how things will shake out. I'm just saying that next year could be a situation where Supply might out weigh demand and the Chiefs have a great opportunity to grab what normally would be a top 10 prospect without having to trade up simply because no one else can afford to take another QB.

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Old 01-18-2012, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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you know the worst thing about 2011 being the year of the QB, smaching QB records at an alarming pace, winning MVPs and games alike..... this years SB might be QBed by Alex Smith and Joe Flacco. the "Harbaugh Bowl" would be an awesome game, just not the game anyone thought. Brady vs Brees or something of that nature.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:26 AM    (permalink
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Well, it's all "year of the QB" now, but as teams start building their defenses to deal with the passing offenses of the NFL, teams that run a power game are going to thrive when they go up against teams that have invested a lot in the secondary, but aren't so big and tough up front.

And I think you guys are getting me wrong on the Stanzi deal. I'm not saying he's going to be a great prospect, I'm saying he has a lot of potential and is at least on par with guys you're looking at past RG3 - not counting the year of experience he just logged in the league. It's mostly that people act like they haven't addressed the future QB situation, when they actually have. And in a big way, imo. The 2012 QB class is weak, the 2011 class was possibly All-Time strong. I had Stanzi ranked #6 or #7 and still feel pretty good about that. I liked 8 or 9 QBs from that class as guys who could be very good starting QBs in the NFL with varying degrees of tweaking and learning.

I see people wanting Tannehill, and that just makes no sense when they have Stanzi. I feel Stanzi is better in every area, but even if you think Tannehill might have an edge in a category, it's not a good gamble when you have a chance to really advance your team with a high pick invested in another area of the team that could make a huge immediate and long-term difference. If we were talking about Luck or Barkley, I'd be more interested in discarding Stanzi as the QB they should be developing for a few years down the road.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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You cannot go into the season feeling confident about Ricky Stanzi as our BACKUP let alone the future starter for this team.

QB is the most important position in football and I'm sorry but I disagree with the fact that drafting a QB in the 5th round is addressing the area. It isn't. Pioli likes to draft QBs every year, but until you get that stud in the building who is actually a franchise signal caller, the position is NOT ADDRESSED.

Where you had Stanzi ranked is irrelevant. 32 teams passed on him 4 1/2 times for good reason. It doesn't matter if you think he's better than prospect a or b, the people who get paid to do this for a living disagreed. Are they wrong sometimes? Sure, a lot of the time, but forgive me if I trust their better judgment over yours.. you being the person that said Stanzi would be a first round pick this year.

As far as I, and a lot of other Chiefs fans, are concerned, the QB situation has NOT been addressed. Until you take a flier on a top flight guy it won't be addressed. Bottom line: QB is still the #1 need for this team. If we're going to go anywhere of value it won't be with Cassel, Orton or Stanzi. Period.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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I don't understand all this Ricky Stanzi hate?
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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I've said it about five thousand times: I DON'T HATE RICKY STANZI, but you can't go into a season expecting a 5th round pick at QB to be the future of your team. We've done this multiple times in the past two decades.

Brodie Croyle was a third rounder that they expected to be the future of the team, remember? He wasn't good enough. He was a bad QB when he was healthy, which was very rare. Damon Huard eventually started over him at QB and how'd that turn out?

You just can't bank on someone with average tools and average athleticism to be your franchise QB. You can't. PERIOD.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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So if the Chiefs do actually draft an offensive lineman in the 1st round, who are the forum favorites? I've mentioned my opinion on Mike Adams, but I'd also be thrilled if the Chiefs were fortunate enough to land Jonathan Martin. Don't think he'll be available though. Call me crazy, but I'm not a fan of Reiff. Could just be the Iowa connection (and my desire to not have to hear that), but I hope Reiff isn't the guy.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidae View Post
You cannot go into the season feeling confident about Ricky Stanzi as our BACKUP let alone the future starter for this team.
I'm more confident in him than a QB out of this draft not named RG3 or Luck. That's what I've been saying the whole time. He's got a lot going for him, and isn't just some scrub that didn't do anything in college.

Quote:
QB is the most important position in football and I'm sorry but I disagree with the fact that drafting a QB in the 5th round is addressing the area. It isn't. Pioli likes to draft QBs every year, but until you get that stud in the building who is actually a franchise signal caller, the position is NOT ADDRESSED.
Drafting a QB in the 5th round that most had going in the 2nd-3rd is definitely addressing the back-up QB/development QB need that they had in 2011 when they were left with Brodie Croyle/Tyler Palko when Cassel got hurt.

Quote:
Where you had Stanzi ranked is irrelevant. 32 teams passed on him 4 1/2 times for good reason. It doesn't matter if you think he's better than prospect a or b, the people who get paid to do this for a living disagreed. Are they wrong sometimes? Sure, a lot of the time, but forgive me if I trust their better judgment over yours.. you being the person that said Stanzi would be a first round pick this year.
You think the Cardinals, Dolphins, Seahawks, Redskins, and Browns (I'd give them a slight pass - McCoy tricked them) had good judgement in passing on a great QB class through an entire draft? I'm sort of OK with those teams being stupid because the two teams I care about ended up with two very good young QBs out of the deal in Ryan Mallett in the ******* 3rd round (where I had New England drafting Stanzi/Yates) and Ricky Stanzi in the 5th.

Quote:
As far as I, and a lot of other Chiefs fans, are concerned, the QB situation has NOT been addressed. Until you take a flier on a top flight guy it won't be addressed. Bottom line: QB is still the #1 need for this team. If we're going to go anywhere of value it won't be with Cassel, Orton or Stanzi. Period.
They went to the playoffs with Cassel and had nothing at receiver outside of Bowe. People knew they weren't going to win that game because the Ravens and other good defenses were able to easily contain Charles and take away Bowe (especially without Moeaki). They had no where else to go with the ball. Hell, Tom Brady struggled with that when he only had Moss and Welker Good defense can stop that passing attack if you don't have anything else to go to.

And that's the only game you have to go by to sit there and say they can't win with Cassel.

A fresh start in 2012 with one of the best receiving groups in the NFL, hopefully competent playcalling, and a returned running game... To go along with a top-notch defense... If they can't look like the team they should be with the team around the QB positions they should have, I'll give it to you. Seriously.

But I really don't see it going that way. I think Cassel developed good chemistry with Breaston & Baldwin in a short period of time and had a nice connection with Moeaki in 2010. When you have 4 guys that a QB likes to look for on the field at the same time, good things will happen. And we know Cassel gets a lot better when things are going well.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
I'm more confident in him than a QB out of this draft not named RG3 or Luck. That's what I've been saying the whole time. He's got a lot going for him, and isn't just some scrub that didn't do anything in college.
It's great that you've been saying that the whole time, but you've been wrong the whole time, and someone who isn't a homer can clearly see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
Drafting a QB in the 5th round that most had going in the 2nd-3rd is definitely addressing the back-up QB/development QB need that they had in 2011 when they were left with Brodie Croyle/Tyler Palko when Cassel got hurt.
Please show me who had Ricky Stanzi going in the second round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
You think the Cardinals, Dolphins, Seahawks, Redskins, and Browns (I'd give them a slight pass - McCoy tricked them) had good judgement in passing on a great QB class through an entire draft? I'm sort of OK with those teams being stupid because the two teams I care about ended up with two very good young QBs out of the deal in Ryan Mallett in the ******* 3rd round (where I had New England drafting Stanzi/Yates) and Ricky Stanzi in the 5th.
You had Stanzi going in the third? Even though you said you weren't impressed with him before that? And btw, you named what, 5 teams.. out of 32. 5.

Quote:
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They went to the playoffs with Cassel and had nothing at receiver outside of Bowe. People knew they weren't going to win that game because the Ravens and other good defenses were able to easily contain Charles and take away Bowe (especially without Moeaki). They had no where else to go with the ball. Hell, Tom Brady struggled with that when he only had Moss and Welker Good defense can stop that passing attack if you don't have anything else to go to.
They went to the playoffs with Jamaal Charles. I've never disagreed that Cassel can be an ok QB if everyone around hm is a star, but that isn't always the case. He isn't good enough.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Moeaki play in the Ravens playoff game? Yes, he did.

And let me call massive BS about Tom Brady struggling. Tom Brady has won championships with less talent than the Chiefs had and you know it. Get off this stupid argument.

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Originally Posted by nepg View Post
And that's the only game you have to go by to sit there and say they can't win with Cassel.
And any game this year that he played. Without Moeaki and Charles, Cassel showed exactly who he was. A below average QB who cannot get it done unless EVERYTHING falls his way. That's all he is. I don't hate Cassel, he just isn't good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
A fresh start in 2012 with one of the best receiving groups in the NFL, hopefully competent playcalling, and a returned running game... To go along with a top-notch defense... If they can't look like the team they should be with the team around the QB positions they should have, I'll give it to you. Seriously.
You're making my argument for me. Hey, with a top flight running game, one of the BEST receiving groups in the NFL and a top-notch defense, Cassel might not dribble down his leg if his first read is taken away. He's only capable if everything goes right 100% of the time, and that is unrealistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
But I really don't see it going that way. I think Cassel developed good chemistry with Breaston & Baldwin in a short period of time and had a nice connection with Moeaki in 2010. When you have 4 guys that a QB likes to look for on the field at the same time, good things will happen. And we know Cassel gets a lot better when things are going well.
The problem is, Cassel doesn't LOOK FOR MORE THAN ONE READ. He looks at Bowe and if it's taken away he panics. Everyone can see that but you. He doesn't go through progressions. He doesn't stand tall in the pocket if the first read is taken away. He freezes. He worries too much. Why can everyone BUT you see this?

Cassel is not the QB of the future. I wanted him to be, I really did, but times up. You're putting blame everywhere BUT Cassel again, which is the nepg standard response, and that's fine. Keep that if you want. I'm sick of it and we need to get better at the most important position in football and excuse me if I'm skeptical of a fifth round pick with just ok measurables and limited upside.
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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Woah now. Stanzi isn't a first round prospect, but he isn't a favored backup QB either.

Nepg was right about Stanzi. He has all the tools to become a good NFL QB, and scouts said this constantly. He's starter quality. If Matt Hasselback and Matt "God Damn" Cassel (I really hate this guy) are NFL QB's than so is Stanzi.

Did anybody watch him last preseason? He was by far our best QB and he was running for his life with a 3rd string OL! It's ridiculous to think that he is simply a backup QB. What makes you think that? The fact that he's a 5th round pick?
Just because a QB is a first round pick doesn't make him automatically better. Hell I'd take Stanzi anyday over Blaine Gabbert because Stanzi is a MAN in the pocket and has the confidence that Gabbert doesn't.

Stanzi might be the hardest working QB in his draft class and that is enough right there. He's going to start soon, hopefully this year so I don't break my tv watching Cassel out there for 6 months.
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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we're hoping the franchise can be led by a QB that was either missing the mental or physical tools to beat out Tyler Palco for the starting job at the end of the season. i dont care what he did in preseason or in college. he has to be able to prove that he can do it here on this level and to this point, multiple decision makers have kept him on the bench. maybe it will all work out for him, but he could just as easily be Brodie Croyle, Pat Barnes, Steve Stenstrom, Steve Mathews, Matt Blundin, Mike Elkins, Danny McManus or Doug Hudson (all no name QBs drafted after the 1st round by the Chiefs since 1983)
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:18 PM    (permalink
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I'm also getting so sick and tired of this preseason argument. And I'll quote you directly:

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Did anybody watch him last preseason? He was by far our best QB and he was running for his life with a 3rd string OL!
He was also playing THIRD STRING DEFENDERS.

I'm not saying Stanzi isn't the answer. What I'm saying is that you are ridiculous for believing he is with limited time. And yes, being drafted in the fifth round is a legitimate concern. If he was as good as you and nepg are claiming, he would have been a first round pick. And no, no matter how hard you try, he would not be a first round pick this year.

Limited physical tools and limited upside get you drafted in the 5th round. That's how the draft works.
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