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Old 01-19-2012, 05:11 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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I don't know if trading up to get Griffin is the right choice or not. I do know that the Browns shouldn't and probably won't sit on their hands this year instead of aggressively pursuing a potential franchise QB. Holmgren has repeatedly alluded to how it took him 5 years to get to the super bowl in Green Bay and 5 years to get there in Seattle - once he found his franchise QB (Hasselbeck). If they don't bring in someone this year (Flynn? Griffin?) then it will set the franchise back another year and it will be another year added to when the Browns feel they can compete for a championship.

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That's why Flynn may be the choice, Holmgren has a track record of trading for his franchise QB with a lot of success, although Flynn will be a tough sign competing with the Redskin owner.
Griffin I think is obviously a top 5 caliber QB in any draft. He has enough size, he has the arm, he can throw an accurate ball, he is mobile and athletic, he has the intangeables and is very smart. Most QBs come with some kind of risk, you can't find a star franchise QB without taking some kind of risk. The only question remaining I think is do the Browns like Griffin enough to the point where they would trade multiple quality picks to ensure that they get him?
The only remaining question is, does he suit a west coast offense and who else can they obtain. Fortunately, we'll know before the draft who gets Flynn, if it's Washington, I think a trade up for RG111 is a foregone conclusion.
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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I'm not terribly caught up onto the "does fit a WCO?" talk. Shurmur himself said great QBs fit into any kind of offense. There are some guys who can play only in a west coast system, but guys like Rivers, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Manning, etc. can play in any system in the league. You have to be able to complete more than 60% of your passes on a yearly basis to be a really good QB in the NFL these days. If a guy can do that then he can play anywhere. Brees and Rivers don't even have great arms and they play in offenses where they throw the ball down the field a lot. Griffin has a great arm. it has yet to be seen if he can fit it into tight windows like the good ones do, but if he can't then he'll be mediocre at best no matter what system you put him in.

It is still a decent point though. If a team doesn't think a guy is a good fit in this offense then obviously they aren't sold on him enough as a surefire franchise QB to trade up for him. Obviously the Browns wouldn't trade up for a guy who they think will be more like Joe Flacco accuracy wise.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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I'm with the elf on this one and admittedly it may be because I'm just not sold enough on Griffin, but the Browns sucks pretty fearcily so sticking a young stud out there with no additional help will elave with a similar situation to the one the Rams find themselves in where their young QB's gotten banged up and hasn't gotten to attack down the field. Yes they're much better off with Bradford than without him, but I believe in Bradford and they didn't need to give up premium picks to get him. It's one thing if you already have young pieces and give up multipl top 40 picks to get yourself the guy to make us of them. It's a completely different things to give up multiple picks and expect some kid to turn your **** into gold. Even Cam Newton got to play for a team with a revitalized steve smith, good running backs and decent OL.

That's why the Browns need to sit still and pray that Griffin slides or the Rams/Vikings are cool with trading down for just a third and conditional 2/3 next year. I mean the best plausible scenario for the Browns really is the Redskins getting Flynn or Peyton, the Rams being dead set on getting Claiborne or Kalil and the Vikings not really finding what they want and so taking the extra couple of picks to draft Claiborne or Kalil one spot later. But giving up both of their firsts and another good pick to move up 2 spots is excessive to me. Again this all changes if they think Griffin's going to be a great QB and are really sold on him being a guy who will be talked about as a potential hall of famer when he retires. If they think that's who he is, than of course you're willing to trade more, but I'm not sold that he'll even be Donovan McNabb yet.

The worst case scenario that's getting described for the Browns really isn't that bad, if their picks this year turn out great enough to move them out of range for a top QB prospect than they have the young core that lets you trade away a lot of picks for the right guy to lead them. And while next year's stock of QBs always look better a year before they're getting analyzed, there's still almost always a guy or two who can be a franchise guy and they can sell out for that guy.
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Old 01-19-2012, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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I'm kinda leery on trading all that just to move up two spots as well. If we trade an extra first to get Griffin, he better damn well be a franchise QB. I'm not too worried about him not having a ton of weapons early in his career. You can address that problem later. It's better to have a young QB with no weapons for a year than it is to keep passing on QBs just to build the rest of the team first. We can draft Griffin this year and draft some stud WRs in the next few years. Patience is required in that regard. Until the Browns solve their problem at QB it will continue to seem as if the entire team is headed nowhere.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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I hear the same argument on this site every year, for some reason people think that you need the entire line to be elite, a franchise RB, #1 WR, and elite pass catching TE before you can draft a TE. How often does that happen? Even though it never happens like that. Guys lose their jobs like that.


You just can't continually suck, draft in the top 5 over and over picking weapons and support until you have everything in place. If you have a shot at a franchise QB, you take him then draft those weapons and help later on.


What would Cleveland look like if they passed on RGIII, he went on to look like Cam Newton, but at least Cleveland had a bunch of picks right? That argument never made any sense. If you don't have a franchise QB(which Cleveland doesn't), you need to be trying to get one.


Nobody has the kind of time, or luxury to draft weapons and help year after year after year and win 4-5 games every season in the process.
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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I hear the same argument on this site every year, for some reason people think that you need the entire line to be elite, a franchise RB, #1 WR, and elite pass catching TE before you can draft a TE. How often does that happen? Even though it never happens like that. Guys lose their jobs like that.


You just can't continually suck, draft in the top 5 over and over picking weapons and support until you have everything in place. If you have a shot at a franchise QB, you take him then draft those weapons and help later on.


What would Cleveland look like if they passed on RGIII, he went on to look like Cam Newton, but at least Cleveland had a bunch of picks right? That argument never made any sense. If you don't have a franchise QB(which Cleveland doesn't), you need to be trying to get one.


Nobody has the kind of time, or luxury to draft weapons and help year after year after year and win 4-5 games every season in the process.
I don't think anyone's saying Cleveland shouldn't pick Griffin if he's available at their pick. What's being debated is cleveland giving up anything more than their second round pick to move up to #2 for him.
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone's saying Cleveland shouldn't pick Griffin if he's available at their pick. What's being debated is cleveland giving up anything more than their second round pick to move up to #2 for him.
I am. Cam Newton he is not. If he's available at #4 I'd prefer we force a team like Was or Mia/Sea/KC to trade up for him and stock more picks, then reach for either Osweiler or Tannehill at some point in the first.

And as for Matt Flynn. Holmgren has already stated that he doesn't see the Browns addressing the QB position this year through free agency-and he's been pretty straight with the media since he arrived.
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Old 01-20-2012, 08:56 AM    (permalink
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Interesting thought: There have been some very low key rumors that Indy could be looking at Oregon HC Chip Kelly for their head coaching position.

A lot of times, when college head coaches are interviewing for potential pro head coaching jobs, they try to stay as under the radar as possible so they don't drive away recruits or upset their school. This would explain why it's not generating a lot of buzz if it is happening.

Anyway...does anyone think that the Colts could possibly consider Griffin in this situation? He seems like the better fit for Kelly's offensive system.

Just an interesting side note to keep in the back of your mind.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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I'm kinda leery on trading all that just to move up two spots as well. If we trade an extra first to get Griffin, he better damn well be a franchise QB. I'm not too worried about him not having a ton of weapons early in his career. You can address that problem later. It's better to have a young QB with no weapons for a year than it is to keep passing on QBs just to build the rest of the team first. We can draft Griffin this year and draft some stud WRs in the next few years. Patience is required in that regard. Until the Browns solve their problem at QB it will continue to seem as if the entire team is headed nowhere.
I forget which analyst said it. It's probably just an old NFL saying. But, there are two types of teams out there. Those who have a quarterback. And, those who are looking for a quarterback. It's really that simple.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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I would stay put if I were the Browns...for now. Who is going to move up that much and give away that much?

Redskins finally have draft picks to work with so they can't throw them away for once.

Dolphins might move up from 8/9.

Seahawks from 11 as well.

But either way those 2 teams will have to give up an arm and leg, to trade with the Vikings.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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An arm and a leg is worth it in a league where you simply must have a quality QB.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:42 AM    (permalink
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Interesting thought: There have been some very low key rumors that Indy could be looking at Oregon HC Chip Kelly for their head coaching position.

A lot of times, when college head coaches are interviewing for potential pro head coaching jobs, they try to stay as under the radar as possible so they don't drive away recruits or upset their school. This would explain why it's not generating a lot of buzz if it is happening.

Anyway...does anyone think that the Colts could possibly consider Griffin in this situation? He seems like the better fit for Kelly's offensive system.

Just an interesting side note to keep in the back of your mind.

eh i still think theyd go luck but if they liked what they say from griffin maybe theyd be more inclined to trade back and stock pile a fortune of picks for the team going forward.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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eh i still think theyd go luck but if they liked what they say from griffin maybe theyd be more inclined to trade back and stock pile a fortune of picks for the team going forward.
I don't think there's any chance they'd trade out of it and potentially lose out on both. They're taking one #1 overall. 99% Luck, 1% Griffin for now. Although if Kelly gets the job...who knows.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:56 AM    (permalink
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I don't think there's any chance they'd trade out of it and potentially lose out on both. They're taking one #1 overall. 99% Luck, 1% Griffin for now. Although if Kelly gets the job...who knows.
Luck could play in the spread, he just wouldn't run the option. But who in the NFL really runs the option play, save Tebowzzz.

That reminds me with how well tebow is doing running the option, you think we'll see more of it from Cam Netwon next year? He also is another big Qb, that once in the secondary no Db really wants to hit him.
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Old 01-20-2012, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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Tebow ran it well...until teams got a 2nd crack at stopping him. The Chiefs and Patriots both shut the option down completely in their 2nd meetings.

It was just such an usual thing that tripped NFL defenses up at first. But with more tape and time to study it, it will be shut down just as the Wildcat once was.
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Old 01-20-2012, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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Tebow ran it well...until teams got a 2nd crack at stopping him. The Chiefs and Patriots both shut the option down completely in their 2nd meetings.

It was just such an usual thing that tripped NFL defenses up at first. But with more tape and time to study it, it will be shut down just as the Wildcat once was.
Those are nice wrinkles to have in your playbook to run in the game for or 2 plays. You can't base your offense around gimmick plays. Like Newton's fumble rooski, its nice to have that play, but you can't run your offense from that formation all the time.
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Old 01-20-2012, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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I would like to stress that there is no such thing as giving up too much value if it means acquiring a worthwhile quarterback. Do I want this management team to do their best to protect our second first-rounder? Yeah, in an ideal world, I sure do. But, if push comes to shove, whatever could be had with Atlantaís pick pales in comparison to the trickle-down effect a good quarterback has on a team. Thatís not even debatable. Theyíre the biggest difference-makers in football. They elevate an offense and rise above the limitations of supporting cast. They make average players look good and good players look great. They donít need breathtaking talent all over the field to be successful.

In fact, letís take a quick look at the Browns roster and examine skill sets. For starters, Hillis is a starting-caliber back. Yes, heís a free agent and got banged up last season, but heís a well-rounded runner that can anchor a ground game. Greg Little showed a lot of encouraging signs for a raw wide out and possesses the trademark skill set of a chain-mover. Heís a fearless receiver with deceptive athleticism that finishes runs after the catch. Mohamed Massaquoi flashed as a capable deep threat as a rookie when Derek Anderson was willing to drive the ball downfield. Heís got adequate straight-line speed, good length, and the tools to fight for the ball when itís in the air. Heís not special at all in that regard. But, like I said, he flashed. Since Colt and Delhomme have assumed the reins, the deep balls have dwindled to the point where even shot opportunities are being neglected. And what about the wrinkle de jour of NFL offenses with the two-tight end set? Well, Cleveland has two pass-catching tight ends in Ben Watson and Evan Moore. Cribbs can even be a valuable weapon in the field position game and a little gadget on offense.

Now, for the record, Iím not advocating to retain all of the above or argue them as irreplaceable. Iím strictly talking skill sets here. For example, Massaquoi is far too inconsistent for me to feel comfortable with and I would actively attempt to upgrade that spot this off-season. But he has a skill set thatís favorable to one thing and Colt has ignored that one thing. A good quarterback wouldnít do that. A good quarterback would utilize what he has at his disposal. And Iím not contending this could be one of the best offenses in the entire NFL. Just that it could be middle-of-the-road instead of anemic if it had a better quarterback. Also, protection issues are becoming overrated. Football is changing. Quarterbacks are just as responsible for their protection as the linemen in front of them. Granted, it canít be a turnstile on a particular side, but itís impossible to expect five All-Proís.

Taking a step back, look at the offensive positions being suggested as alternatives to quarterback. Running back. On a draft-to-draft basis, running back is a deep position. You can piece together an effective ground game with mid-round picks. Wide receiver. The most team-dependent position in the sport. And another position that still features talented athletes outside of the premium picks. Right guard and right tackle. Traditional mid-rounders. The supporting elements of an offense can be filled out with free agents and later draft picks. Finding a quarterback is the toughest and most paramount part of team-building.

The obvious caveat is the faith in RGIII to become that quarterback. And Iíll even admit that Iím not 100% sold. But, from what I see on the field, Iím sold enough to take that chance. That said, I maintain the final assessment for Griffin is going to come down to how he responds in individual workouts. Thatís when teams see a prospect work the whiteboard and can challenge him one-on-one. Find out what offensive concepts heís familiar with, what packages he likes running, how he processes defensive formations and reads at the line, how he absorbs a wealth of information in a short amount of time, how dedicated he is to watching film, etc. Those are the questions that will determine Griffinís true upside. And those are questions we wonít have an answer to because we arenít in that room. But thatís where coaching staffs, scouting departments, and decision-makers earn their keep.
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
Interesting thought: There have been some very low key rumors that Indy could be looking at Oregon HC Chip Kelly for their head coaching position.

A lot of times, when college head coaches are interviewing for potential pro head coaching jobs, they try to stay as under the radar as possible so they don't drive away recruits or upset their school. This would explain why it's not generating a lot of buzz if it is happening.

Anyway...does anyone think that the Colts could possibly consider Griffin in this situation? He seems like the better fit for Kelly's offensive system.

Just an interesting side note to keep in the back of your mind.
That'd actually be an interesting and good hire.

I'd much rather them go with Morhinwhig.
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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If McCoy isn't the answer, that's fine, I know he most likely isn't. However, I would rather trade my 2013 and 2014 first rounders to move up for a QB next year after acquiring talent to help them succeed. That's how I think a team should be built.
well said, sir
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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For those saying get talent around the Quarterback first and then pick up your franchise guy.

What if Griffin is your franchise guy? What if none of your scouts give any other Quarterback in the next five years as high of a grade as they gave RG3? You really want to settle for your #2 option because you don't want your Quarterback playing with no talent around him? Tons of Quarterbacks play with no talent around them, why else would that team that selected them have a top five selection.

You could draft RG3 and by the time he has elite weapons around him he could have the NFL down and be a stud.
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
Interesting thought: There have been some very low key rumors that Indy could be looking at Oregon HC Chip Kelly for their head coaching position.

A lot of times, when college head coaches are interviewing for potential pro head coaching jobs, they try to stay as under the radar as possible so they don't drive away recruits or upset their school. This would explain why it's not generating a lot of buzz if it is happening.

Anyway...does anyone think that the Colts could possibly consider Griffin in this situation? He seems like the better fit for Kelly's offensive system.

Just an interesting side note to keep in the back of your mind.
Stanford HC said that Luck runs a 4.5
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Stanford HC said that Luck runs a 4.5
He's more athletic than given credit for. A 4.5 on a track wouldn't completely surprise me. I don't think he plays that fast, but he plays fast enough.
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Again, I'd like to point out that I'm not against drafting RGIII at #4 if available, but I am against giving up picks to move up when the talent around him is among the worst supporting cast in the league.

Cudders, I think you are being far too kind in your evaluation of our current roster and, as you mentioned, there is no guarantee that Hillis (arguably the most talented skill player) will even be back.

I guess I'm a little confused by those that say "give up whatever it takes" to get yourself a (possible) franchise QB. Are you making these comments keeping in mind the current offensive talent on this roster or in a vacuum? I ask because I feel like people think that a rookie QB is going to magically elevate the play of the offense somehow. We are talking about a rookie, not some 5 year vet...

Just look at the list of "franchise" QBs and the help they had in their first year as a starter (first year as a starter mind you, not as a rookie; so some of these guys had a chance to watch and learn). I indicated All-pros (AP), Pro Bowls (PB), and yardage for anybody who you wouldn't think is anything special (ex., Selvin Young and Travis Henry):

QB, 1st Yr as Starter

Manning, 1998
Harrison
Faulk

Brady, 2001
Troy Brown (PB)

Brees, 2002
Tomlinson (PB)

Vick, 2002
Dunn

Roethlisberger, 2004
Bettis (PB)/Staley (comb. 1770 yds)
Ward (PB)
Burress
OL (2 AP's & 1 PB)

Manning, 2005
Barber (AP)
Shockey (PB)
Burress (1200 yds)

Rivers, 2006
Tomlinson (AP)
Gates (AP)

Romo, 2006
Owens
Witten (PB)
Terry Glenn (1000 yds)

Cutler, 2007
Marshall
Young/Henry (combined 1400 yds)

Schaub, 2007
Johnson
Daniels

Rodgers, 2008
Driver
Jennings
Grant (1200 yds)

Ryan, 2008
Turner (AP)
White (PB)

Stafford, 2009
Johnson

So the guys that got the "least" help where probably Brady, Brees, Vick, and Stafford, right? So I guess if we trade up using our #22 pick to get RGIII we can expect him to elevate the play of his team if he's a HOFer and possible GOAT (Brady); a HOFer (Brees), a mediocre QB that goes to jail, gets signed by a much more talented team, and rides the bench for a year (Vick); or has a Decepticon (and probable HOFer at this rate) at WR (Stafford). [/sarcasm]

Almost nobody does it on their own, you need talent around a young QB. Anybody that thinks this team is talented enough to just trade away a 1st RD pick and insert RGIII into the lineup and he's going to succeed isn't facing the facts. This offense is bereft of NFL caliber starters at the skill positions.

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Old 01-20-2012, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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This is dumb as hell. You sound like the Lions fans who pissed and moaned wanting Smith/Curry over Stafford because "they couldn't protect or help a rookie QB." Or the Rams fans who wanted Suh over Bradford because "they couldn't protect or help a rookie QB." Or the Falcons fans who wanted Dorsey over Ryan because "they couldn't protect or help a rookie QB."

You get the QB when you can get the QB. You do not succeed in the NFL without one and any year you don't have one is a wasted year.

End discussion, figurative lock thread.
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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My apologies. Here I thought topics were open for discussion on these discussion boards.
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