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Old 01-19-2012, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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That's a poor comparison because I also don't like Landry Jones. I'm also a QB elitist, so I like very few people...

Foles problem, for me having seen like 4-5 games this past season, is that he throws lots of screens, and when he does attack further down the field, his read was scripted. He'd look at one receiver and if that guy wasn't open, check down.

It's basically what Blaine Gabbert did last year. People (read: idiots) are mesmerized by a big guy who threw for umpteen billion yards. He doesn't translate well and I personally wouldn't draft him.
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Old 01-19-2012, 10:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080 View Post
If any NFL team is taking advice from McShay or Condon's firm instead of doing their own due diligence then the system has failed. I don't like McShay that much but I find it hard to believe that he wasn't just echoing what some teams think. We said ourselves here that Osweiler has the looks for an NFL 1st rounder and McShay is basically coming to the same conclusion that many of us had here.
Unfortunately, the guys who do the most legwork (the scouts) often have the smallest voice in the War Room on draft day.
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Old 01-19-2012, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Unfortunately, the guys who do the most legwork (the scouts) often have the smallest voice in the War Room on draft day.
Thankfully the Giants aren't run that way.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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That's a poor comparison because I also don't like Landry Jones. I'm also a QB elitist, so I like very few people...

Foles problem, for me having seen like 4-5 games this past season, is that he throws lots of screens, and when he does attack further down the field, his read was scripted. He'd look at one receiver and if that guy wasn't open, check down.

It's basically what Blaine Gabbert did last year. People (read: idiots) are mesmerized by a big guy who threw for umpteen billion yards. He doesn't translate well and I personally wouldn't draft him.
I think it's a good comparison really, as Foles draws much more scrutiny around here than Jones does/(did before he decided to come back) and from what I have read about Foles, seen from Jones, and seen from the numbers they seem rather close as players.

Thank you for the reply, as a like-minded "QB elitist" I feel bad not having seen Foles last year after reading about him forever...his press-clippings make me feel like I missed out on something. Quick question though, if Foles came out say, 3 years ago, would you have the same reservations about him?
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Old 01-20-2012, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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The way I see it, there's only about 5 teams that would want to draft a QB in the first to begin with: Indy, Cleveland, Washington, Miami and Seattle. I doubt every one of them ends up drafting a QB in the first round. I'm going to go "under" on five first-round quarterbacks. Whether Miami or Cleveland ought to draft a QB is debatable, in my opinion. It depends who's on the board. They've both got young guys they're trying to develop, and you can't just ditch your current project every time a new one that hasn't had the opportunity to fail yet comes along. Really nothing to suggest Foles or Osweiler will be any better than Moore or Colt McCoy, except that they're bigger.
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Old 01-20-2012, 03:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DrAbaddon View Post
I'm sorry, as someone who hasn't seen Foles play at all and hasn't had the motivation to go scrounging for tape...why does this place seem to hate him so much? What makes him worse than say, Landry Jones?
I like Foles. He really has a chance to solidify himself as the 4th QB taken in this draft, but I also don't think he's a first rounder.

It bugs when someone sees a college QB make one read before throwing the football, that suddenly it means they ALWAYS make one read before throwing the ball.

People around here really under sell how QBs are coached at the college level.
If there's more than one WR out running patterns, any half decent college OC is going to put some emphasis on going through their progressions/reads.

Foles is streaky but if he can be coached out of some of the flaws in his game, what couldn't he have a chance to start in the pros???
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:58 AM    (permalink
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I like Foles. He really has a chance to solidify himself as the 4th QB taken in this draft, but I also don't think he's a first rounder.

It bugs when someone sees a college QB make one read before throwing the football, that suddenly it means they ALWAYS make one read before throwing the ball.

People around here really under sell how QBs are coached at the college level.
If there's more than one WR out running patterns, any half decent college OC is going to put some emphasis on going through their progressions/reads.

Foles is streaky but if he can be coached out of some of the flaws in his game, what couldn't he have a chance to start in the pros???
He's not particularly accurate (completion percentage is inflated by the screens and one-read-or-check-down) and his arm strength is somewhat overrated.

It's far more comforting to see QBs doing things at the college level that they will need to do in the pros than trust that every aspect of their game can be improved via coaching.

Like I said on the previous page, highly drafted QBs very rarely get to sit anymore to improve and it's hard to teach a guy on the fly who is basically making a full blown transition from a simple college offense. Nearly all of them have ended up starting at least half their games as rookies, including 4/5 last year.

If Foles ends up being highly drafted and plays as a rookie, we're more likely to see another Blaine Gabbert than anyone productive.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:10 AM    (permalink
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i don't think foles is quite that bad. osweiler might be.
It'd be a challenge for ANYONE to be that bad, but I think some of these guys will be closer to that than to good NFL QBs.

I've at least seen Osweiler do slightly more than Foles in terms of things an NFL QB will need to do. I still wouldn't want either guy in the first round.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:25 AM    (permalink
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Todd McShay was diagnosed with early onset dementa. RIP.

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If Foles ends up being highly drafted and plays as a rookie, we're more likely to see another Blaine Gabbert than anyone productive.
I'd feel so bad if the Jaguars did that to themselves twice in a row.
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Old 01-20-2012, 10:04 AM    (permalink
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form some opinions now.
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Old 01-20-2012, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
I like Foles. He really has a chance to solidify himself as the 4th QB taken in this draft, but I also don't think he's a first rounder.

It bugs when someone sees a college QB make one read before throwing the football, that suddenly it means they ALWAYS make one read before throwing the ball.

People around here really under sell how QBs are coached at the college level.
If there's more than one WR out running patterns, any half decent college OC is going to put some emphasis on going through their progressions/reads.

Foles is streaky but if he can be coached out of some of the flaws in his game, what couldn't he have a chance to start in the pros???
Problem is that the NFL, especially it's passing game, is a completely different game than college.

Most, if not all, college QBs are taught to go through progressions. NFL QBs are taught to read based off coverages. There might be some sort of pre-defined progression, but nowhere near as explicit as it is in college. It's a completely different animal.

I agree with you, though, that just because a guy's college offense is rudimentary or simple in terms of how difficult the progressions are to go through doesn't mean that he's going to be a one-read quarterback for his entire life. Put me in the group that think Foles gets a little more flack than he deserves on here.

Then again, media people are saying he could go in the first, so I get the backlash.

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Old 01-20-2012, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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I actually like Foles quite a bit more than Osweiler. Does Osweiler have more upside? Sure, but Foles a bit more polished now and really led his team. I've seen him float balls, have bad games, and get bailed out by his WRs, but he was no worse in college than Andy Dalton.
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Old 01-20-2012, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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The way I see it, there's only about 5 teams that would want to draft a QB in the first to begin with: Indy, Cleveland, Washington, Miami and Seattle. I doubt every one of them ends up drafting a QB in the first round. I'm going to go "under" on five first-round quarterbacks. Whether Miami or Cleveland ought to draft a QB is debatable, in my opinion. It depends who's on the board. They've both got young guys they're trying to develop, and you can't just ditch your current project every time a new one that hasn't had the opportunity to fail yet comes along. Really nothing to suggest Foles or Osweiler will be any better than Moore or Colt McCoy, except that they're bigger.


Basically give the Colts Luck, and one of the other 4 will sign Matt Flynn. That leaves 3 teams.

> I doubt Miami spends a first on a QB unless they successfully trade up for RG3.

> Mike Holmgren prefers day two QBs. I can see him looking at Weeden if they take Blackmon at 4.

> I do think Seattle will take a QB.

> Washington is the Flynn front runner.



Colts - Luck
Dolphins - RG3
Seahawks - Tannehill

Round 2
Browns - Weeden
Chiefs - Foles
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Old 01-20-2012, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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I've seen nothing from Foles to suggest that he can throw the ball down the field competently at the NFL level. His arm is a tick or two below average, he doesn't throw a tight spiral...he just throws a floaty ball that isn't really all that accurate at the second and third level either. That's not even getting into how easy a target he is sitting back in the pocket. He doesn't possess the athletic talent to evade the rush and I don't see consistently good footwork or enough presence to bail him out either. I'm just really, really down on what he brings to the table. BeerBaron already got into some of the other things about him I don't like.

The thing that really kills him for me is that he doesn't have the tools to get any better. He's being touted as a low ceiling, high floor guy...but the floor isn't even as high as people seem to think it is. Even if you're able to teach Foles to read coverages down the field, you're still getting a guy who doesn't have the arm to run an NFL offense at a high level. Based on the smoke, it seems like the NFL is determined to overdraft him because he looks the part in terms of size and statistical performance though. Confuses the hell out of me, really. We've seen guys like him get passed on and get drafted late/not at all before. I'm really not sure what people see in Foles that separates him from some of those older Texas Tech quarterbacks everyone used to be down on, besides a different uniform.
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Old 01-20-2012, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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Newton was in the ultimate "one-read" offense...
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:02 PM    (permalink
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Newton was in the ultimate "one-read" offense...
And a great number of people called him out, and rightfully so. He adapted extremely well to a more pro-like offense and is a very, very, very major exception.

Most QBs who come from a system like that tend to look more like Blaine Gabbert than Cam Newton.
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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Newton was in the ultimate "one-read" offense...
...and had crazy physical ability. Foles doesn't.
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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And a great number of people called him out, and rightfully so. He adapted extremely well to a more pro-like offense and is a very, very, very major exception.

Most QBs who come from a system like that tend to look more like Blaine Gabbert than Cam Newton.
I know, I felt a bit silly even typing it. It's just hard to correlate hasn't made pro reads with can't make pro reads, but I realize I'm arguing a losing point here.
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DrAbaddon View Post
I know, I felt a bit silly even typing it. It's just hard to correlate hasn't made pro reads with can't make pro reads, but I realize I'm arguing a losing point here.
I get your point, because nobody is really making "reads" in CFB (really, Andrew Luck is the first guy I distinctly remember doing actual coverage-reading; I'm sure there are others in the past, but it's not coming to me off the top of my head). Like I said, most of the college stuff is progression-based, which is pre-determined.
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Also, a big part of the problem is that "doesn't do it" leads to "can't do it" far more often than not.

So when you see a guy actually making "reads" pro-style, like Luck, it tends to build him up as one of those "can't miss" prospects.

As in, I'll be shocked and mortified if Luck isn't a successful pro QB because he's already doing things that pro QBs have to do while the vast majority of college QBs do not.

And it's why I roll my eyes when people say things like "yeah, he's not elite, he doesn't have a great deep ball!"
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bhaarat316 View Post
form some opinions now.
A midround QB is a mid round QB, no matter what youtube videos there are.
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Old 01-20-2012, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ElectricEye View Post
...and had crazy physical ability. Foles doesn't.
Evaluating Newton always seemed to be more like, "I don't care if he didn't have to make any reads..."
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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If I was picking someone in the 2nd or 3rd and had the understanding that this player is project and you do not need to force him in to starting then I take Brock. IN addition to that understanding I would also need ownership back up as a Gm that we have a long term plan in place. You need have a strong HC, OC and QB coach in place with a good starter to help him along in the process.

But how often are teams at the liberty to do that? If you don't have a top 5 QB in the game you are **** out of luck. You could be without a Qb with in a year. If Matt Schaub shits the bed next year he is toast, same with Bradford maybe.

The turnover rate in the front office and HC position is almost as quick as the QB turnover rate. That rate plus the need to win now rather than establish a competitor year in year out with a 3-4 year building up of a team forces players like Locker, Ponder, Gabbert, Osweiler, Foles, Rg3 to be over drafted. it is an unfortunate way the NFL works but once in a while a team will strike gold with a Qb.
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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it is an unfortunate way the NFL works but once in a while a team will strike gold with a Qb.
And it's why New England continues drafting QBs every year even though they have Tom Brady. They're always developing somebody.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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And the general public wonders why there's so many busts...there's two Qb's worth drafting in the top 2 rounds, and maybe one who deserves to go in the 3rd. Tannehil in the top 10? Osweiller in the 1st? How on earth are these guys getting paid.
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