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Old 04-04-2012, 08:10 AM    (permalink
brasho
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Zach Brown? I like Kendricks/Wagner/David, but why even mention Brown? The dude is soft. His game tape no where translates to his combine workouts. He's Aaron Curry/Ernie Sims. Excellent athletes in the Under-Wear Olympics, but suck on the field.

I like you're 2nd mock. However, LaMichael James doesn't fit our physcial style of offense Schiano wants. Someone like Chris Polk would be a better fit in round 3 there.

Bobby Wagner is vastly underrated and is starting to get on the radar and probably has solidified himself in teh 2nd round. He's shown he can make plays during the senior bowl and was MVP.
Why do I mention Zack Brown, three reasons: athletic, productive, Butch Davis. Butch Davis should have been mentioned first. But if Zack Brown is worth the late 1st/mid 2nd people have been talking about, Davis will push for Brown to come aboard above and beyond all other LBs in round 2. If Zack Brown is there and we choose another LB, that raises a big red flag to me. But right now, because of the Butch Davis connection, I feel it is about 50/50 we choose Brown if we choose a LB in round 2... which is why he made my list. The other two LBs are preferred.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:16 AM    (permalink
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[quote=bucfan12;2933783]I trust Mark Dominik and he's done a good job with the draft the past 3 years. He'll be fine. It's not like it's Bruce Allen runnign the show, QUOTE]

I think you were thinking of thw word running but subconsciously you knew the word should have been ruining. Correct?

And I agree on both accounts. Hopefully Dominik has learned from the dimwitted mistakes of the past and not choose a RB top 5 (like he did with Cadillac), take a WR that could have had their 40 time clocked with a sundial (Michael Clayton), take an offensive guard when there was an elite talent still on the board (Chris Johnson), not pass on a special talent at MLB (like he did with Patrick Willis), or draft a 6th year lineman that didn't even start to produce until his 5th season (like with Gaines Adams).
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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[quote=brasho;2933852]
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I trust Mark Dominik and he's done a good job with the draft the past 3 years. He'll be fine. It's not like it's Bruce Allen runnign the show, QUOTE]

I think you were thinking of thw word running but subconsciously you knew the word should have been ruining. Correct?

And I agree on both accounts. Hopefully Dominik has learned from the dimwitted mistakes of the past and not choose a RB top 5 (like he did with Cadillac), take a WR that could have had their 40 time clocked with a sundial (Michael Clayton), take an offensive guard when there was an elite talent still on the board (Chris Johnson), not pass on a special talent at MLB (like he did with Patrick Willis), or draft a 6th year lineman that didn't even start to produce until his 5th season (like with Gaines Adams).
You are 100% lost my friend. Ruining the show? Dominik had no part in making the decisions when Allen and Gruden were "Ruining" the show. Dominik has had full control of draft decisions the past 3 years and he's done an excellent job collecting talent. It's just we didn't have the right coaching staff.

I don't know where to begin with you're false info from.

Also, Chris Johnson never was considered an elite talent coming out. He was a 2nd round prospect. He's done very good, but I wouldn't put him ahead of Adrian Peterson, MJD, Arian Foster, or Ray Rice. He's been declining since his break out season.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:06 PM    (permalink
brasho
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[quote=bucfan12;2933932]
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You are 100% lost my friend. Ruining the show? Dominik had no part in making the decisions when Allen and Gruden were "Ruining" the show. Dominik has had full control of draft decisions the past 3 years and he's done an excellent job collecting talent. It's just we didn't have the right coaching staff.

I don't know where to begin with you're false info from.

Also, Chris Johnson never was considered an elite talent coming out. He was a 2nd round prospect. He's done very good, but I wouldn't put him ahead of Adrian Peterson, MJD, Arian Foster, or Ray Rice. He's been declining since his break out season.
As an English teacher that is supposed to be on spring break, it seems my work is never done. I was referring to Allen and Gruden as ruining the show. I never said nor implied that Dominik was running or ruining the show.

Perhaps you never considered Johnson to be an elite talent, but I did and I went on record when the Buccaneers.com message board was still operational and said that Johnson should be the guy we pick. I envisioned Johnson as a Reggie Bush play-him-in-the-slot-play-him-at-RB type as he had been a WR at ECU previously and showed he was tough enough to play RB as well. I didn't see him as a potential 2000 yard rusher but more a Percy Harvin/Darren Sproles-type joker that would keep the defense on their heels.

BTW, as for comparing him to the FOUR backs you mentioned, TWO were 2nd round draft picks and ONE was undrafted.

Anyway, why so defensive? We're on the same side. Calm down, relax. You're amongst friends.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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I don't know. You have a lot of different opinions to the point, that many players don't impress you at all. Quincy Black did, and look how poorly he played. He was awful.

I don't like your view nor opinion on Zach Brown. After looking at the tape and several scouts have, including Mike Mayock, and his athleticism in UA shorts off the field no where near matches his football production in pads. To me, he gets put into the category of Veron Gholston, Ernie Simms, Aaron Curry. Get a bunch of hype as workout warriors, but there play isn't as good. I've read reports on Pewter that Dom is impressed and has scouted multiple times LB Lavonte David.
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:16 AM    (permalink
brasho
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I don't know. You have a lot of different opinions to the point, that many players don't impress you at all. Quincy Black did, and look how poorly he played. He was awful.

I don't like your view nor opinion on Zach Brown. After looking at the tape and several scouts have, including Mike Mayock, and his athleticism in UA shorts off the field no where near matches his football production in pads. To me, he gets put into the category of Veron Gholston, Ernie Simms, Aaron Curry. Get a bunch of hype as workout warriors, but there play isn't as good. I've read reports on Pewter that Dom is impressed and has scouted multiple times LB Lavonte David.
Yeah, I made a mistake on Black last season. He has the tools to take off and instead of taking another step forward, he took three steps back. I've been right far more than I've been wrong, however, and the record shows it. It wasn't all that long ago that I took heated criticism for saying JaMarcus Russell would eat himself out of the league in 5 years (it took 4), that Glenn Dorsey would NEVER be a dominant NFL player (he's been below-average), and also that I preferred Lamarr Houston to Gerald McCoy (which thus far, despite playing out of position at DE, he has been better and perhaps more importantly, healthier). And I was wrong about Black. Apparently, Dominik thought enough of him to sign him long-term... the same Dominik that you believe will turn the franchise around.

Regardless, I was wrong once. You keep coming back to it. You've said numerous incorrect facts, made ridiculous predictions, and given outlandish opinions. Do I really need to go back 3 weeks, 6 months, one year ago, etc to dig up all the BS you've posted? I've done it before, thrown it in your face, and you never faced the music.

As far as Zack Brown. My opinion on him is this. He's very athletic, he's played all 3 LB positions, he played and was recruited by Butch Davis. Which part of that assessment do you not agree with. I don't have the time to give you a reading test so try not to jump to anymore unfounded conclusions, please.
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:41 AM    (permalink
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After looking at the tape and several scouts have, including Mike Mayock, and his athleticism in UA shorts off the field no where near matches his football production in pads. To me, he gets put into the category of Veron Gholston, Ernie Simms, Aaron Curry. Get a bunch of hype as workout warriors, but there play isn't as good. I've read reports on Pewter that Dom is impressed and has scouted multiple times LB Lavonte David.
First off, what tape are you referring to? You mean youtube? You don't have access to tape unless you DVR'd some UNC games from last season and if you did you would have seen a speedy, athletic LB that flies all over the place.

So you put Brown in the category of Gholston? The guy that had something like 35 tackles his last season in college, 17 of which were behind the LOS... or was it 17 sacks and 21 behind the LOS? Regardless, poor tackle numbers equals inconsistent motor. I thought he would be inconsistent.

Ernie Sims? Ernie Sims didn't rely on a freakish workout but phenomenal play as a sophomore when he was on numerous first team all-american teams. I'm not sure how you can state that Sims had a great workout... he still weighed in at only 230 lbs and under 6 feet. It was a known fact that he was tiny and I believed him to be a first round talent, somewhere in the 20-32 range... not a top 10 selection where the Lions chose him. Still, the man that wanted him most was Rod Marinelli because he felt that he could be another Derrick Brooks.

As for Curry, you're talking about a college SLB that amassed a lot of tackles every year and set records for return TDs and yards in his junior season. Yes, he had a great workout, but his great workout had nothing to do with him winning the Butkus award as the nation's best LB. He was drafted top 5 by the Seahawks, which was somewhat unconvential to draft a non rush-LB so high... but nobody batted an eye, not your beloved Mayock, not Kiper, McShay, nobody, not me.

Anyway, I view Brown as a solid 2nd round candidate because of his speed, his production in his senior year, and because he's not an upfield rusher. I view him as a good possibility for the Bucs because his former college coach, Butch Davis, is on staff as a consultant. If you can't make that connection, perhaps you need to start tryng to hone your skills by playing connect-the-dots in the newspaper.

Mike Mayock views Brown as a his 4th best LB prospect. the website you are on now has him as the 2nd best OLB prospect, both have him ahead of David.

As for you referencing PewterReport... really? You pay how much a year for that crap? I've seen better newsreporting in a high school journalism class. I've got 7th graders with higher football acumens than the majority of the writers on that site. Why anybody would pay anything for information that is basically a fan blog is beyond me. But go ahead, keep giving people your money so they can give you your opinion. What will it hurt? When others call you out you can just tell them to go back and watch the tape.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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First off, what tape are you referring to? You mean youtube? You don't have access to tape unless you DVR'd some UNC games from last season and if you did you would have seen a speedy, athletic LB that flies all over the place.

So you put Brown in the category of Gholston? The guy that had something like 35 tackles his last season in college, 17 of which were behind the LOS... or was it 17 sacks and 21 behind the LOS? Regardless, poor tackle numbers equals inconsistent motor. I thought he would be inconsistent.

Ernie Sims? Ernie Sims didn't rely on a freakish workout but phenomenal play as a sophomore when he was on numerous first team all-american teams. I'm not sure how you can state that Sims had a great workout... he still weighed in at only 230 lbs and under 6 feet. It was a known fact that he was tiny and I believed him to be a first round talent, somewhere in the 20-32 range... not a top 10 selection where the Lions chose him. Still, the man that wanted him most was Rod Marinelli because he felt that he could be another Derrick Brooks.

As for Curry, you're talking about a college SLB that amassed a lot of tackles every year and set records for return TDs and yards in his junior season. Yes, he had a great workout, but his great workout had nothing to do with him winning the Butkus award as the nation's best LB. He was drafted top 5 by the Seahawks, which was somewhat unconvential to draft a non rush-LB so high... but nobody batted an eye, not your beloved Mayock, not Kiper, McShay, nobody, not me.

Anyway, I view Brown as a solid 2nd round candidate because of his speed, his production in his senior year, and because he's not an upfield rusher. I view him as a good possibility for the Bucs because his former college coach, Butch Davis, is on staff as a consultant. If you can't make that connection, perhaps you need to start tryng to hone your skills by playing connect-the-dots in the newspaper.

Mike Mayock views Brown as a his 4th best LB prospect. the website you are on now has him as the 2nd best OLB prospect, both have him ahead of David.

As for you referencing PewterReport... really? You pay how much a year for that crap? I've seen better newsreporting in a high school journalism class. I've got 7th graders with higher football acumens than the majority of the writers on that site. Why anybody would pay anything for information that is basically a fan blog is beyond me. But go ahead, keep giving people your money so they can give you your opinion. What will it hurt? When others call you out you can just tell them to go back and watch the tape.

Here's some reports from respectable ananylsts:

Quote:
After doing tape study of North Carolina LB Zach Brown, NFL Films guru Greg Cosell described Brown as an "avoid-contact player."Cosell did credit Brown with "sideline-to-sideline range," impressive speed, and movement skills. But Cosell saw "no physicality" out of Brown, and prefers Nebraska's Lavonte David as a 4-3 outside linebacker prospect. Cosell says David showed more "physical toughness," and is a "quicker reactor" than Brown. It sounds like Brown is a candidate to be overdrafted. Apr 1 - 6:09 PM
Quote:
According to CBS Sports' Rob Rang, multiple NFL scouts have compared North Carolina LB Zach Brown's instincts as a linebacker to Aaron Curry's.
"That's no compliment," warns Rang. Brown runs 4.50 at 6-foot-1, 244, and possesses 33 1/4-inch arms to excel in pass coverage. Rang considers Brown a potential workout wonder, though. "(Brown) is a passive 'chase' linebacker who consistently runs around blocks rather than fighting through them," writes Rang. Rotoworld draft analyst Josh Norris has also questioned Brown's toughness.
Quote:
According to NFL.com's Gil Brandt, some league personnel question North Carolina LB Zach Brown's competitiveness.
It's not the first time we've heard this. Brown is a terrific workout athlete -- he ran 4.48, 4.49 at 6'1/242 during the Tar Heels' Pro Day -- but he lacks toughness in pads and isn't a sure tackler. CBS Sports' Rob Rang has also questioned Brown's instincts. Brown may be selected in the top 45 for his athleticism, but he's not a run-stopping outside linebacker prospect.
I don't know what you see, but I didn't like him coming before the combine, and the anaylsts I had on him then, are being confirmed by others as well. You have to be careful of recent North Carolina prospects. They seem to shine the first quarter of the season and dissapear the rest.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure what it is you think I see in Brown. Nothing those guys have said do I disagree with. You seem to think I see something that I have clearly not said... so tell me, what is it that I see?

As I stated before, Butch Davis was his college coach. There is a strong likelihood he would want his former recruit and player, plain and simple.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:45 AM    (permalink
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I havn't seen a lot of Brown, just the highlights. I get the impression when hearing scouts and draft guys talk about Brown that he is a supped up Geno Hayes. Will make a good amount of splash plays but will also get caught out of position and has problems shedding blocks.

With the Butch Davis connection and a need at OLB it's not a stretch to think he could be drafted by us.
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:10 AM    (permalink
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I havn't seen a lot of Brown, just the highlights. I get the impression when hearing scouts and draft guys talk about Brown that he is a supped up Geno Hayes. Will make a good amount of splash plays but will also get caught out of position and has problems shedding blocks.

With the Butch Davis connection and a need at OLB it's not a stretch to think he could be drafted by us.
Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what I said or what I "see" that this dude keeps talking about. He's decent, very athletic, versatile, but most importantly, BUTCH DAVIS.
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Old 04-08-2012, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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I havn't seen a lot of Brown, just the highlights. I get the impression when hearing scouts and draft guys talk about Brown that he is a supped up Geno Hayes.
Well said. Brasho I hear the Davis argument..it makes a lot of sense. I can def see him fighting for "his guy" if he's on the board in 2 and if we pass, he obviously failed lol.

I don't see how Brown would be an upgrade over Hayes OR Black. I like what I've read about Kuechly but obviously taking him at 5 is way too high. I wouldn't be against as trading down (possible with Cinci as so many have talked about) and taking Kuechly and either Gilmore, or Kirkpatrick (whoever the highest rated CB on our board is).

With that being said, I'm becoming more and more uncomfortable about our LBs as I think about the upcoming season. I just don't see any guys that can come in and make a major difference that actually "make sense" so to speak. I have to take a closer look at the 2nd and 3rd tier linebackers ...but nobody is there at 5, and I don't know who will be there in the 2nd that will be a major upgrade for us.

As far as Trent Richardson goes, I completely see why people are against taking a RB at 5, but what if Trent Richardson comes in and rushes for 1,500 yards as a rookie? He can completely change the franchise, and would take a lot of pressure off of Freeman. Some say he's in the mold of Adrian Peterson, and I'm a BIG fan and think he can come in and really change our offense as a TRUE 3 down RB. I don't like taking RBs that high in the draft, but if Trent can come in and get it going behind our offensive line...wow...that'd be pretty nasty.

What I want through 3:

1st round: Morris Claiborne CB: I like the idea of Richardson running behind our line, but Mo is too good and presents too much value for us.

2nd round: Coby Fleener TE: This may be wishful thinking, but if he was available here I'd love to see us take him. I want us to find a guy that can really get down that seam and stretch out defenses.

3rd round: LaMichael James RB: I see some people aren't high on him, but I LOVE his body of work, think he plays bigger than his size and he would be an explosive compliment to Blount who can do a lot for our offense.

We'd have to go linebacker in the 4th ...and yes yes, I know not ONE linebacker in the first 3, but the guys who are around here just don't inspire me with the idea that they would be significant upgrades over Watson, Black, and Hayes (leaving Foster out of this, we know he's starting). I think Fleener, and James would provide much more of an impact in 2 & 3.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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We can't go LB in the 4th when we don't have a 4th round pick!
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:01 PM    (permalink
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LOL touche. That's the 2nd time somebody has reminded me of that. hahahahaha.
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Old 04-09-2012, 06:01 AM    (permalink
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I actually had talked about Fleener, somewhere, as an option with our 2nd round pick, if and only if we could get a trade down and additional 2nd in return. I had us going 1) Kuechly 2) Fleener 2b)CB Josh Robinson 3) RB Pead or James.

I like Pead a lot and I think it's quite possible Schiano likes him a lot too. Two years ago, Cincinatti rolled up 69 points on Schiano's Rutgers team and Pead ran for well over 200, had nearly 250 in combined rushing and receiving yards, and had 5 total TDs. I'm sure, at the very least, Schiano hasn't forgotten him.
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:54 PM    (permalink
bucfan12
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Originally Posted by brasho View Post
Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what I said or what I "see" that this dude keeps talking about. He's decent, very athletic, versatile, but most importantly, BUTCH DAVIS.
Pete Carrol never drafted Taylor Mays, when he had freakish athletic ability.

I see the same situation here with us.

Ther more i here and read about Kendricks, after all these respectable analysts and scouts go back and re-watch his game tape, the more I'm impressed. We have a shot at him in round 2, and I'd definately take him. He's played the MIKE and WILL.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:49 PM    (permalink
brasho
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brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brasho is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Originally Posted by bucfan12 View Post
Pete Carrol never drafted Taylor Mays, when he had freakish athletic ability.

I see the same situation here with us.

Ther more i here and read about Kendricks, after all these respectable analysts and scouts go back and re-watch his game tape, the more I'm impressed. We have a shot at him in round 2, and I'd definately take him. He's played the MIKE and WILL.
No, he didn't. Which is a huge indictment of Mays. But last year he did bring in Mike Willilams, LenDale White, drafted LB Malcolm Smith in the 7th round, signed LB Mike Morgan as UDFA, signed RB Allen Bradford after we cut him, and just signed OG Deuce Latui in free agency. That's six of his former players signed.

And yes, he knew he didn't want Taylor Mays, which should tell you more about Taylor Mays than it does about coaches picking up their former players. So with the six players Carroll had coached and Mays not being signed, the only way this is relevant is if Zach Brown IS Taylor Mays...and Buth Davis IS Pete Carroll.

For the record, I prefer Mychal Kendricks AND Bobby Wagner over Brown.
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:56 PM    (permalink
bucfan12
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Brasho, you're opinion on filling the safety hole: Christian Thompson, FS/SS from South Carolina State. Really like him and could be had in the 3rd/4th round of the draft.
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:13 PM    (permalink
brasho
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I honestly have not seen either of the South Carolina St. safeties play. From a height/weight/production standpoint, I like his running mate, Donovan Richard. The guy is big at 6'1 220, fairly fast 4.49 hand timed, and really productive in the running game (over 200 tackles the past two seasons) plus decent INT numbers (6).

The guys that I'm extremely familiar with that I really like are:

Mark Barron-he may be gone before we choose in round 2.
Harrison Smith-underrated athlete, good production. Might be a target in round 2
Markelle Martin-looks and runs like a CB, good all-around S, perhaps available in round 3?
Brandon Hardin-super intriguing athlete.. college CB, perhaps too big to play CB in NFL (or wrong complexion). Could be another Jason Seehorn. Could be had as early as round 5 or as late as round 7... though at 6'3 216 he ran handtimed 4.36 and 4.40 and proved his shoulder was healthy by putting up 225 24X.
Aaron Henry seemed to always be around the ball for Wisconsin... where he's picked is unknown to me... 4-7?

The darkhorses that I really like are:
Delano Howell of Stanford. He might be good enough from a size speed standpoint, but he was good in Stanford's D. I watched him quite a few times in 2010 and came away impressed.
Matt Daniels-one of my favorite sleeper players in the draft. If you've ever watched a Duke game, you'd be sitting there wondering who #40 was because he literally was in on every play and making just about every big play there was to be made. The guy's a 4 year starter and absolutely blew up last season with 126 tackles in 12 games. According to a newspaper account I read on him, he timed and tested extremely well at his Pro Day but I'm not sure how accurate that is... nor do I care much, he's still athletic and productive despite playing with a subpar supporting cast.
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