It's time to rank the QBs again - Page 4

Complex · 02-07-2012, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

sorry to cherrypick, but if the excuse is 'talent around him', he's not an elite tier qb.

Then Peyton isn't a elite QB? remember last year when he struggled for a couple games because Collie and Dallas Clark were injured.The excuses were he is losing his top TE and one of his top WR's.

njx9 · 02-07-2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Complex

Then Peyton isn't a elite QB? remember last year when he struggled for a couple games because Collie and Dallas Clark were injured.

i don't buy for a second that that was a valid argument for most of peyton's career. further, even if i were to, struggling for a couple of games is massively different than struggling for an entire season after getting one of your best weapons back, and having your best offensive threat play in more games than he did the season before.

killxswitch · 02-07-2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

i don't buy for a second that that was a valid argument for most of peyton's career. further, even if i were to, struggling for a couple of games is massively different than struggling for an entire season after getting one of your best weapons back, and having your best offensive threat play in more games than he did the season before.

I thought Rivers was hurt most of the season?

AntoinCD · 02-07-2012, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

sorry to cherrypick, but if the excuse is 'talent around him', he's not an elite tier qb.

I think it's a tough situation to look at. Take Aaron Rodgers this year. Pretty much everyone will agree he was lights out and the rightful MVP. But he is about 5 or 6 deep with quality WRs. Yet when Jennings got hurt and the offensive line got hurt his play dropped significantly. Rivers played with a sucky offensive line and a hobbled Gates all year.

I'm not putting Rivers into the elite category, but before this year almost everyone had him as well as Rodgers as the guys who were going to take the next step.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 02-07-2012, 01:50 PM

Rivers has been just about to take that next step to best of the best status for about 4 years now....

DraftSavant · 02-07-2012, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)

Rivers has been just about to take that next step to best of the best status for about 4 years now....

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
OMG THIS

killxswitch · 02-07-2012, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)

Rivers has been just about to take that next step to best of the best status for about 4 years now....

How much of a difference do you think a better HC would make?

DraftSavant · 02-07-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killxswitch

How much of a difference do you think a better HC would make?

How much difference would a lack of fantasy football make?

Brothgar · 02-07-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosebud

Would Rodgers be considered with a #1 overall pick if the league was blown up and we were building teams all over again? The answer's yes. So of course he's elite, in fact he's the only elite QB in the NFL.

-_- great way to take a logical point and blow it way past its desired intent. Of course we are talking about players who are elite right now not those who are elite prospects. Honestly yeah Aaron Rodgers would get consideration as that top pick for teams that were looking to win year 1. As would Brady, Brees, and a healthy Manning the Elder. I may be stringent on my rules but it is to prevent having people fall out of elite status like Philip Rivers apparently did this year.

killxswitch · 02-07-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DraftSavant

How much difference would a lack of fantasy football make?

Not defending him. I don't like Rivers. But I do think if they'd kept Schottenheimer we'd view Rivers differently right now.

AntoinCD · 02-07-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)

Rivers has been just about to take that next step to best of the best status for about 4 years now....

It's a down side to the position but QBs are judged more than any player on postseason success.

It's not his fault the Chargers are one of the most indisciplined teams in the NFL. The Chargers postseason runs from the middle of the last decade are filled with missed field goals, giving up return TDs, to defenders fumbling after getting an INT.

The Chargers have screwed themselves out of so many chances and it doesn't fall on Rivers most of the time. Marlon McCree and Nate Kaeding will go down in imphamy for the screw ups

DraftSavant · 02-07-2012, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

It's a down side to the position but QBs are judged more than any player on postseason success.

It's not his fault the Chargers are one of the most indisciplined teams in the NFL. The Chargers postseason runs from the middle of the last decade are filled with missed field goals, giving up return TDs, to defenders fumbling after getting an INT.

The Chargers have screwed themselves out of so many chances and it doesn't fall on Rivers most of the time. Marlon McCree and Nate Kaeding will go down in imphamy for the screw ups

Rivers: 7 playoff games, 1820 yards, 58%, 8 TDs, 9 INTs, 79 rating.

He plays just as ****** as everyone else on his team in the playoffs.

Sidenote: 2 of the Chargers' 3 postseason wins have come against the Colts - another poor postseason team. The 3rd was another "meh" AFCS team in Tennessee.

AntoinCD · 02-07-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DraftSavant

Rivers: 7 playoff games, 1820 yards, 58%, 8 TDs, 9 INTs, 79 rating.

He plays just as ****** as everyone else on his team in the playoffs.

Sidenote: 2 of the Chargers' 3 postseason wins have come against the Colts - another poor postseason team. The 3rd was another "meh" AFCS team in Tennessee.

Maybe so but 2006 AFCDG against the Patriots, Marlon McCree gets what appears to be the game sealing INT and gets it stripped. If they win that game they then play the Colts who as you mentioned they have a pretty good record against. Then the Bears in the Superbowl.

In 2007 AFCCG the Pats beat them again but only after stopping Michael Turner at the goal line and going and scoring a TD afterwards. Then the Giants in the Superbowl.

Even with those stats you gave, and say they lose to the Giants, if Rivers has one superbowl win and two appearances by 2007 he is definitely considered elite.

vidae · 02-07-2012, 02:33 PM

I've been saying this about Rivers for god knows how long. He's the trendy pick to be the next elite QB and he never delivers. It's the same as the entire Chargers team. Every year they're SB locks and fail to make it. I just saw someone on NFLN (I know, look at the source) say that the Chargers are the team to beat in the AFC next year. The ****?

AntoinCD · 02-07-2012, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vidae

I've been saying this about Rivers for god knows how long. He's the trendy pick to be the next elite QB and he never delivers. It's the same as the entire Chargers team. Every year they're SB locks and fail to make it. I just saw someone on NFLN (I know, look at the source) say that the Chargers are the team to beat in the AFC next year. The ****?

It was like the Texans for about 5 years to make the playoffs.

I'm not trying to throw lots of love at Rivers but after finding themselves in an absolute perfect situation with the whole Eli Manning thing they have probably been the worst run organisation in football.

They went from being the most talented team in the NFL to being below average in like 3 years.

AJ Smith is a joke of a GM.
Norv Turner is a joke of a head coach.

I don't see the Chargers being back in the hunt for a while. They are maybe the least talented team in their division. The only thing they have is their QB is better than anything else in the division.

Look at the last few years. Instead of trading Vincent Jackson and getting picks AJ Smith plays stubborn and they get nothing after his holdout.

They draft Larry English who is trash.
They move up to draft Ryan Mathews at 12. He's ok when he's healthy.
They draft Corey Liuget who has done very little.

Their offensive line has become old and injured. Gates is always hurting. They lost Merriman, Jamal Williams, Olshansky, Casillas, Cromartie etc.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 02-07-2012, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vidae

I've been saying this about Rivers for god knows how long. He's the trendy pick to be the next elite QB and he never delivers. It's the same as the entire Chargers team. Every year they're SB locks and fail to make it. I just saw someone on NFLN (I know, look at the source) say that the Chargers are the team to beat in the AFC next year. The ****?

Especially when you consider how ****** our division is.... other than the Chargers twice, we've had no dominant teams since Rivers came into the league. We've had no dominant defenses besides the time the Chargers were #1. Rivers has been EASILY the best QB in the division for his entire starting career, and the only one who was even good other than him was Cutler. Actually, since he's been drafted, he's been the best QB in the AFC West, while the second best in that timeframe was on his team...

There's just something about him. I think he's a great QB, but he's never gonna hit that absolutely elite level. His teams almost always underachieve, and I think some of that has to fall back onto him. With the groups he's had, he should have at least a SB appearance to his name.

jackalope · 02-07-2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broth223

I figured someone was going to jump on me for not putting Rodgers into the Elite category. I require three years of elite production. Rodgers has 2 years of elite production. As I said in my post to be elite you must be in the year in and year out conversation for MVP you don't have to win it (although Rodgers did). I will be the first to admit that he has played to an elite level for the past two seasons.

I think that's a foolish way of ranking them, since we're concerned with who is elite now. Also, three years ago, Rodgers threw for 4,434 yards with a QB rating of 103.2.

Complex · 02-07-2012, 02:48 PM

Phillip Rivers is a great a QB. People forget last season when Gates was injured, Jackson was holding out and he was throwing to his 4th and 5th string WR's because his 2nd and 3rd WR's were injured. I think they lost like 3 or 4 games because there special teams sucked balls.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 02-07-2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

I don't see the Chargers being back in the hunt for a while. They are maybe the least talented team in their division. The only thing they have is their QB is better than anything else in the division.

Have you seen the rest of the division recently?

Mufasa · 02-07-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broth223

I figured someone was going to jump on me for not putting Rodgers into the Elite category. I require three years of elite production. Rodgers has 2 years of elite production. As I said in my post to be elite you must be in the year in and year out conversation for MVP you don't have to win it (although Rodgers did). I will be the first to admit that he has played to an elite level for the past two seasons.

Why do you choose to ignore 2009 then?

2010: 3,992 yards, 28 TDs, 11 INT, 65.7% completion, 101.2 QB rating, in 15 games

2009: 4,434 yards, 30 TDs, 7 INT, 64.7% completion, 103.2 QB rating

I would say that from watching him, he did play slightly better in 2010 than 2009, but he still had a great year in 2009. And even 2008 he was very good. I think the 4 years he's had is plenty of a track record. And it's not like he won't do it again next year.

AntoinCD · 02-07-2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Complex

Phillip Rivers is a great a QB. People forget last season when Gates was injured, Jackson was holding out and he was throwing to his 4th and 5th string WR's because his 2nd and 3rd WR's were injured. I think they lost like 3 or 4 games because there special teams sucked balls.

The Pats beat them last year because their special teams is balls and one of those 4th or 5th string WRs made a nice catch, got up and left the ball on the ground and the Pats recovered it. Also there was a pass in the flat that Rivers made, the RB dropped it and all the Chargers stopped as though it was incomplete, despite the fact it was clearly like two yards backwards and therefore a fumble. The Chargers often have to play their opponents and their own incompetence at the same time.

Stupidity, ill-discipline and not being prepared enough comes down to coaching.

Brothgar · 02-07-2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mufasa

Why do you choose to ignore 2009 then?

2010: 3,992 yards, 28 TDs, 11 INT, 65.7% completion, 101.2 QB rating, in 15 games

2009: 4,434 yards, 30 TDs, 7 INT, 64.7% completion, 103.2 QB rating

I would say that from watching him, he did play slightly better in 2010 than 2009, but he still had a great year in 2009. And even 2008 he was very good. I think the 4 years he's had is plenty of a track record. And it's not like he won't do it again next year.

-____- 2009 was my final year of grad school many things are forgotten about 2009. But I guess you guys are right.

DraftSavant · 02-07-2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Maybe so but 2006 AFCDG against the Patriots, Marlon McCree gets what appears to be the game sealing INT and gets it stripped. If they win that game they then play the Colts who as you mentioned they have a pretty good record against. Then the Bears in the Superbowl.

In 2007 AFCCG the Pats beat them again but only after stopping Michael Turner at the goal line and going and scoring a TD afterwards. Then the Giants in the Superbowl.

Even with those stats you gave, and say they lose to the Giants, if Rivers has one superbowl win and two appearances by 2007 he is definitely considered elite.

Can't we do this with every team, evar?

yo123 · 02-07-2012, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DraftSavant

Can't we do this with every team, evar?

If the Patriots didn't not win the Super Bowl they would have won the Super Bowl! I can't stand these arguments.

DraftSavant · 02-07-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yo123

If the Patriots didn't not win the Super Bowl they would have won the Super Bowl! I can't stand these arguments.

If the 1999 Jaguars had played anybody besides the Titans, they would have gone 18-0 and played vs the Rams in a game that would have been even more exciting than the ******** Titans/Rams Superbowl.

Or if the refs would have just done their job, and thrown a ******* flag on the ******* illegal Music City Cunticle.

And then Mark Brunell would be a HOF QB.