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Old 09-03-2012, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post

The offensive coordinator is the biggest scapegoat in football. It's always the OC's fault. That's a pile of crap. I'm not saying they are completely free of blame, but we pile onto OC's way too much on this message board. It's just become ridiculous.

Let's put some blame back on the players. Players make plays. I never saw a play designed to NOT work.
To be fair...their OC was Bob Bratkowski last year, i think.

and he's just god-awful. if there ever was a guy that designed a play not to work...

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Old 09-03-2012, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
This x 100.
Normally I'd agree with you and BBD (And yfs if he was here, that was his mantra), but Cam Cameron is the Ravens OC. We are the exception that proves the rule.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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Normally I'd agree with you and BBD (And yfs if he was here, that was his mantra), but Cam Cameron is the Ravens OC. We are the exception that proves the rule.
Cam Cameron was a "genius" OC when he had LDT, Brees, Gates, a good OL, and Vincent Jackson.

He goes to Baltimore, and has a developing Flacco, a good OL, a great RB, but mediocre weapons. The results are the results.

And I know it's easy to say that he should have ran Ray Rice more, but that's an inaccurate misconception. Ray Rice touched the ball plenty. Anymore and Cameron would have ran him to the ground.

And the Ravens had the 3rd most rush attempts in the entire league last year. He ran the ball plenty.

Rice had the most touches in the league (carries plus catches).

What more was the guy supposed to do? The only WR he had who could stretch the field was a rookie who ran 1 route.

And they were a drop away from the SB.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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To be fair...their OC was Bob Bratkowski last year, i think.

and he's just god-awful. if there ever was a guy that designed a play not to work...

He was also the OC when Carson Palmer and the Bengals were steamrolling defenses in 06 before Kimo took Carson's knee out.

See the trend? Players make plays. The Bengals offense sucked in 2011 because their players sucked. Carson sucks, Chad was washed up, ditto for TO, they just weren't that good.

The difference this past year wasn't so much Jay Gruden as it was Dalton and Green.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:03 PM    (permalink
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Offensive coordinators can deserve some blame though. Maybe as much as players at times. Yes they can't help the players they have to run their offense, but it is their job, well the jobs of all coaches, to put their players in the best chance to win games. Regardless of having plays that are designed to work, just from a management standpoint of a game bad decisions could be made.

Back when Mike Martz was his own offensive coordinator in St.Louis he was criticized for not running the ball enough and having Bulger take unnecessary hits. That mantra followed him to Chicago (although he did run the ball more). He also doesn't use the tight end much in his offenses other than blocking.

Certain folks have tendencies for their offenses. Even if their plays aren't designed to fail, it doesn't mean that the are in essence good plays. Or the strategy invoked is good. Harbaugh and Roman improved the 49ers offense with virtually the same roster from the season before when Jimmy Raye and Mike Johnson were running the show.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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OCs do get **** on too much probably. When a team has great talent its easy to run their offense and do well. Fans just want an OC who can adapt to lesser talents and maximize what you have actually.

Martz is awesome when he has The Greatest Show on Turf, but give him the Bears OL/Greg Olson and he still wants to call 7 step drops and never use a TE. He needed to adapt to what he had but he didn't really at all.

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And I know it's easy to say that he should have ran Ray Rice more, but that's an inaccurate misconception. Ray Rice touched the ball plenty. Anymore and Cameron would have ran him to the ground.

And the Ravens had the 3rd most rush attempts in the entire league last year. He ran the ball plenty.

Rice had the most touches in the league (carries plus catches).
This. The idea comes from in the Ravens losses Rice had <10 carries, but its not like the guy doesn't get the ball enough. I'm happy we drafted a RB to take carries off the guy because I don't want to wear down his body too much.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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I seriously hope those predictions I was poking fun at were true, I would love to win my FF league for a third year straight, unfortunately that was such an asinine prediction, and APS's post on only a single 100 yard game just sort of brought that prediction back for me.

If I had to guess, I'd say he'd have a better year than that if he stays healthy, more like 900 yards and 8 TDs, but that also may be too generous. I'm hoping he has a big year.

I was just asking because while that stat was true, I took you comment as to say that's why he's a terrible bet to have good numbers this year. The numbers you posted he already topped those numbers you projected last year in 15 games and that was without another off-season and admittedly being out of shape(which has more to do with that 100 yard stat then anything).


He has no one to blame for that but himself, but regardless this is his first off-season with full participation, is finally in the shape he needs to be, and going into his 3rd season as a WR. You could also make the argument that he'll be featured/targeted a lot more this year in the offense as a whole because just about everybody within the organization has annointed him the #1 WR for the team now.


He hasn't been anywhere near a complete WR in his career at all yet, that's what I'll be looking for this season, but on talent alone he's a 1000/10 guy if he plays a majority of the season and that's his floor. Obviously yours were on the high end, but considering what he did last year I expect at least a small jump this year.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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I understand and agree with the notion that good coordinators adapt to their talent and put them in the best position to succeed. I agree with that completely.

But at the same time, you can only hide deficiencies for so long. Eventually, they come to light. If you're an offense that can't stretch the field (Baltimore), it may work for a week or 2, where you can run all short and intermediate 3 step drops, but after 2 weeks of film, DCs will adjust and just crowd the box and middle of the field. And there goes that. Then what do you do? What's the next adjustment? Ultimately, you're limited by your talent.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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I blamed Linehan for a couple of games early in the season, but he's done a great job as OC for the Lions given the skill set the team has on offense. I mean some OCs are so brutal that they deserve some blame, but a lot of times it's overblown so I'll agree with BBD to an extent.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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That's why I think Torrey Smith is going to be big for the Ravens offense this year. Flacco has an arm but he hasn't had one legit deep threat to stretch the field with it in his career. I think Flacco & Smith take a step forward together this year, might not be a huge step. Jacoby Jones is a decent 3rd wr to go deep also hopefully.

Talent is always going to be the biggest determinant in football. Drafting, developing, finding, & keeping talent is what the long term best teams do.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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I blamed Linehan for a couple of games early in the season, but he's done a great job as OC for the Lions given the skill set the team has on offense. I mean some OCs are so brutal that they deserve some blame, but a lot of times it's overblown so I'll agree with BBD to an extent.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying OC's are never to blame. Situationally, there are plenty of times when they wet the bed. But they're not ALWAYS the reason, which seems to be the implied case too often on this message board.

If we polled every fanbase on this message board, and asked each one how many of them are happy with their OCs, I bet a good 5 to 7 teams would say they like their OC. That's it. The rest wouldn't.

And oddly enough, I bet most of the fanbases that like their OC have a great qb. Shocker right? It's amazing how much better the playcalls work when your qb doesn't suck.

Think about it.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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That's why I think Torrey Smith is going to be big for the Ravens offense this year. Flacco has an arm but he hasn't had one legit deep threat to stretch the field with it in his career. I think Flacco & Smith take a step forward together this year, might not be a huge step. Jacoby Jones is a decent 3rd wr to go deep also hopefully.

Talent is always going to be the biggest determinant in football. Drafting, developing, finding, & keeping talent is what the long term best teams do.
I think Smith is going to have a big year too. It looks like Flacco is going to step up too.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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Jacoby Jones is a decent 3rd wr to go deep also hopefully.
You keep thinking that.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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As much as I dislike Cam Cameron, it isn't totally because of the whole Ray Rice thing. Our passing system is archaic. I think it was Greg Cosell who ran a podcast last year about how outdated and simple our passing attack was. I believe he called it the most predictable offense in the NFL, and it shows on Sundays. Sometimes I like to think about what Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, Vonta Leach, Anquan Boldin, Torrey Smith, Ed Dickson and Dennis Pitta would do with someone like Sean Payton calling the plays, and then I get sad when I realize we will have Cam Cameron forever :(
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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If Cam Cameron was the Packers/Saints/Patriots play caller, he'd be one of the best OC's in the league.
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Old 09-03-2012, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Bottom line is if you don't have an elite QB its gonna be damn hard to win a SB. I still think that its possible, but a great QB covers up major flaws with a team.

I'm actually semi excited about the Ravens offense this year. A lot more no huddle/mini huddle and just more responsibility for Flacco. Not the best QB but he has made the plays that count when we need them.

The defense is gonna take a major step back probably though. You just can't cover up missing a pass rusher like Suggs. Run defense should still be stout and I love the secondary, but the pass rush will be poor.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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I like Chris Palmer. He's a pretty cool guy.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Great QB coach!
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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As far as OC's go, yes, we do put a lot of blame on the coordinators, especially when a critical play fails, but schemes do matter in the NFL. I've said before that to a degree, all great quarterbacks are system quarterbacks, since the system has to be tailored around them.

In Ryan's case, if he's going to take the next step, it will be now. Turner has built up plenty of mileage on him and he looked a lot slower this preseason compared to other seasons, the Falcons will have to win in the air. I think the offensive line could be an issue for them that keeps them from getting far. They have a lot of good players, but not game-changers in other positions besides wide receiver.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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He looked fat and slow last season when we played them on the post season. If he does take a step back, than that doesn't bode well for their running attack.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:49 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, offensive coordinators tend to get more heat because the Madden generation has given rise to a noticeable population of armchair coordinators that often happen to be just casual football fans to begin with.

I will criticize some coordinators though, and I do think there are some fair points for contention. Becoming predictable, ignoring latent patterns, refusal to adapt to league trends, falling victim to scheme over talent, mismanaging receivers into unnatural parts of the tree, and running an unaware or undisciplined unit are all valid criticisms to me.

For example, I didnít hear much discussion about it, but Lee Evansí back-shoulder botched catch in the AFC Championship Game was a technique issue. He tried to tuck the ball to an exposed area where Sterling Moore could still get his hands on it. Now, Evans tried to shield the ball at the last split-second, but it was too late. Given Lee Evansí height, angle of the incoming pass, position in the end zone, the choice of a fade-stop route, and proximal defender presence, that catch needed to be made in a different manner. Evans needed to get to the ground. A turn-and-shield wasnít sufficient. You never want to be hung out high in those situations. Donít leave the defender a chance to wrestle for it. Catch the ball, secure it as tight as possible, go limp, fall from the incoming defender, and kill the snap. Kudos to Moore for his stick-to-itiveness, but if Evans executes better, the rest is irrelevant.

Now, I will admit, I donít know whether Cam Cameron runs applicable drills for that or not. But if little lapses like those become consistent issues that plague an offense, then itís fair. If a coordinator has near pass-exclusive and run-exclusive packages, then itís fair. If a coordinator has personnel for a powerful ground game and strong run action, but insists on spreading teams out and winging the ball all over the place because thatís what heís done before, then itís fair.

Blanket and generic statements like ďrunning the ball moreĒ or ďopening it upĒ or ďthrowing it deeperĒ are, in general, misguided though. There are certain cases where the requisite tools just do not exist and thatís something a coordinator canít change from week-to-week. Youíre not going to cultivate a successful vertical offense with Kellen Moore throwing it to Davone Bess, Lance Moore, and Julian Edelman. (Extreme, I know, but the point itself stands.)

I think Rob Chudzinski is one of the brightest offensive coordinators in the NFL. He hoodwinked people into believing Derek Anderson was a somewhat competent quarterback in Cleveland. He incorporated concepts that Anderson had a lot of comfort with. The biggest example being seam throws. But as the cloud coverages became more prevalent and tighter toward the hash marks, Anderson couldnít adapt to survive. Is that Chudzinskiís fault? No, he was masking a quarterback with undeniable deficiencies to begin with. A smoke-and-mirrors approach wonít work forever. Substance wins out with time.

On that note, I am interested to see how Matt Ryan and the Falcons evolve offensively this year. Their offense in the past has been a little vanilla for me. Is it because Mike Mularkey has naturally conservative tendencies as a play-caller or is it because Matt Ryan never earned his full trust? Iím inclined to lean toward the former, but weíll find out with Dirk Koetter. Can you win games with Matt Ryan? Absolutely. But White and Jones are a fantastic foundation for an aerial attack. Gonzalez is still an above average option at tight end. And Jacquizz Rodgers is a talented runner and receiver that fits a much wider profile, too. Theyíve got a full strike force. Itís time for Atlanta to control Ryan less and let him control them more.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:26 AM    (permalink
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Moral of the story: Seek to have as wide of range of offensive weapons as possible. And a great QB.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post

On that note, I am interested to see how Matt Ryan and the Falcons evolve offensively this year. Their offense in the past has been a little vanilla for me. Is it because Mike Mularkey has naturally conservative tendencies as a play-caller or is it because Matt Ryan never earned his full trust? Iím inclined to lean toward the former, but weíll find out with Dirk Koetter. Can you win games with Matt Ryan? Absolutely. But White and Jones are a fantastic foundation for an aerial attack. Gonzalez is still an above average option at tight end. And Jacquizz Rodgers is a talented runner and receiver that fits a much wider profile, too. Theyíve got a full strike force. Itís time for Atlanta to control Ryan less and let him control them more.

It's going to be very interesting, and I'm saying that in an unbiased way. Mularkey failed to utilize the entire field far too often. He also spent much of his time working on play action crossing concepts and horizontal stretches instead of vertical stretches. Also, screen passes didn't exist. Koetter is much more of a vertical based guy.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying OC's are never to blame. Situationally, there are plenty of times when they wet the bed. But they're not ALWAYS the reason, which seems to be the implied case too often on this message board.

If we polled every fanbase on this message board, and asked each one how many of them are happy with their OCs, I bet a good 5 to 7 teams would say they like their OC. That's it. The rest wouldn't.

And oddly enough, I bet most of the fanbases that like their OC have a great qb. Shocker right? It's amazing how much better the playcalls work when your qb doesn't suck.

Think about it.


Weren't all you guys killing Gilbride for a long time? I'm pretty sure Eli was still playing at a high level when this was going on and people were calling him "kill drive". What your saying makes sense, but coordinators do have a big effect.


Unless you don't have an issue with people like Jason Garrett who when we are having the best drive of the game and marching all the way down field, we get to the 30, and he pulls out the wildcat, take Romo off the field, lose 17 yards, and thus all points on that drive. Thats coordinators, not players.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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People do kill Gilbride because his offense is so complex but now that Eli has it mastered it's worth it in spades. It's difficult for us to get the WR's for the scheme though. We really lucked into Cruz.
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