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Old 03-29-2012, 09:39 AM    (permalink
Giantsfan1080
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I am still owed apologies from last year's **** storm where I was called dumb but 100% right. I can't get over it for some reason.
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:57 AM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
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I am still owed apologies from last year's **** storm where I was called dumb but 100% right. I can't get over it for some reason.
I'm sorry you can't get over it? I don't think I called you dumb (maybe somebody else did) but I thought it was a bad trade.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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I am still owed apologies from last year's **** storm where I was called dumb but 100% right. I can't get over it for some reason.
"I readily admit I ripped you off."





(Hmmm... so that's what BF feels like... feel like a jerk)
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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What was that trade again? I know GF got Lawrie.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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I'm sorry you can't get over it? I don't think I called you dumb (maybe somebody else did) but I thought it was a bad trade.
Yeah I don't know why it "bothers" me so much that you 2 thought that. In the end I was right as Lawrie and Wilson are both rated better than the 2 I gave up though so whatever. I won't bring it up anymore.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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What was that trade again? I know GF got Lawrie.
Uggla and Walden for Lawrie and C.J. Wilson.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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Jesus ****, you guys. Let the past go. Every goddamn trade is going to look differently this far down the road. Remember when you guys went veto bonkers over Yoda trading Grady Sizemore to me last year? You all saved me from an idiotic trade.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Jesus ****, you guys. Let the past go. Every goddamn trade is going to look differently this far down the road. Remember when you guys went veto bonkers over Yoda trading Grady Sizemore to me last year? You all saved me from an idiotic trade.
Which brings to point... Let the present and future go too. Judgement based off the present situation proves neither to be right or wrong.

I don't know why you insist on keeping the veto.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080 View Post
Uggla and Walden for Lawrie and C.J. Wilson.
You won that trade. Right now I'd probably veto it, but at the time it was a far trade because there was there was some uncertainty with Lawrie. It was probably the perfect trade for both sides.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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You won that trade. Right now I'd probably veto it, but at the time it was a far trade because there was there was some uncertainty with Lawrie. It was probably the perfect trade for both sides.
There's nothing veto-worthy about that trade if it went through right now. Lawrie and Uggla are not very far apart, and Walden and Wilson are close enough too.

The veto is in place to prevent specific things: collusion, one owner not paying attention to obvious and overtly lopsided trades (that defy most independent player rankings), serious unaccounted for injury risks, ridiculous homerism clouding generally accepted value for a player, and few other exceptions. It's pretty obvious when a trade needs to be vetoed.

A person's strategy in constructing their team really shouldn't be taken into account, so long as they're making an honest effort to win. Again, it's pretty damn obvious if someone's intention is to lose.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Xiomera View Post
There's nothing veto-worthy about that trade if it went through right now. Lawrie and Uggla are not very far apart, and Walden and Wilson are close enough too.

The veto is in place to prevent specific things: collusion, one owner not paying attention to obvious and overtly lopsided trades (that defy most independent player rankings), serious unaccounted for injury risks, ridiculous homerism clouding generally accepted value for a player, and few other exceptions. It's pretty obvious when a trade needs to be vetoed.

A person's strategy in constructing their team really shouldn't be taken into account, so long as they're making an honest effort to win. Again, it's pretty damn obvious if someone's intention is to lose.
Well according to your list on ESPN you provided use to refer to, I disagree. There is a decent amount of difference. As there is with Bell and Scherzer as I went back and looked.

And again for the record, I'm not upset any of these trades went through. But if you are going to let us veto trades, I'm going to veto ones I don't think are fair. This actually all started by people asking me what I thought was wrong with the deal.

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Old 03-29-2012, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Well according to your list on ESPN you provided use to refer to, I disagree. There is a decent amount of difference. As there is with Bell and Scherzer as I went back and looked.
14 slots is negligible. It isn't like the #1 overall player traded for the #15 overall player. Players are all much closer in value the farther down the list of rankings they are.

There's no exact science to determine a fair trade involving a starter for a reliever. You have to approximate value between a hitter coveted for speed (runs, steals) and a hitter coveted for power (homers, RBI).

I can't believe I have to explain this to experienced fantasy baseball players.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Xiomera View Post
14 slots is negligible. It isn't like the #1 overall player traded for the #15 overall player. Players are all much closer in value the farther down the list of rankings they are.

There's no exact science to determine a fair trade involving a starter for a reliever. You have to approximate value between a hitter coveted for speed (runs, steals) and a hitter coveted for power (homers, RBI).

I can't believe I have to explain this to experienced fantasy baseball players.
It was more like 42 spots but whatever. The list you posted had Bell in the low 80s and Max at like 120 something.

Nevermind, I'm looking at a different list, one BF posted.. However you did find the list where they are the closest ranked. Most have them further apart.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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Jug, I have a hard time believing ANY trade would be deemed EQUAL in your eyes. I said this to BF yesterday. You can't trade one player for his identical clone, and even if you could, it'd serve no purpose. People make trades to improve in one category at the expense of another.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Jug, I have a hard time believing ANY trade would be deemed EQUAL in your eyes. I said this to BF yesterday. You can't trade one player for his identical clone, and even if you could, it'd serve no purpose. People make trades to improve in one category at the expense of another.
That's not true. I vetoed far less trades last year than I did not. Of course you can't get a identical clone, but again I don't think the value is fair between maybe the 6th best closer (I know you think he's lower, but I'm going off most lists like you suggested), and maybe a SP in the 30-40 range.

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Old 03-29-2012, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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That's not true. I vetoed far less trades last year than I did not. Of course you can't get a identical clone, but I again I don't think the value is fair between maybe the 6th best closer (I know you think he's lower, but I'm going off most lists like you suggested), and maybe a SP in the 30-40 range.
You can't compare players like that. It's irrational and false logic.

Example:
Is the 10th best catcher (maybe Wilson Ramos) as good as the 10th best first baseman (maybe Eric Hosmer)?

**** no he isn't.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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There's nothing veto-worthy about that trade if it went through right now. Lawrie and Uggla are not very far apart, and Walden and Wilson are close enough too.

The veto is in place to prevent specific things: collusion, one owner not paying attention to obvious and overtly lopsided trades (that defy most independent player rankings), serious unaccounted for injury risks, ridiculous homerism clouding generally accepted value for a player, and few other exceptions. It's pretty obvious when a trade needs to be vetoed.

A person's strategy in constructing their team really shouldn't be taken into account, so long as they're making an honest effort to win. Again, it's pretty damn obvious if someone's intention is to lose.
1) ...collusion, one owner not paying attention to obvious and overtly lopsided trades (that defy most independent player rankings). I don't think trades should be based off any "independent player rankings". There's so many things wrong with that. Our own projections could be way different for one. Two, the fact that rankings are always changing. Three, those lists aren't the best indicators for our own league settings. Four, they are just intended guides. They are not the Holy Bible of indicating whether a trade is fair or not.

ie. Maybe someone has a great hunch on a player who they think will breakout, and is willing to give up a clearly higher rated player (in present terms). That shouldn't be left to the group to veto because it doesn't match current value of "independent rankings". If I wanna trade for Matt Moore and am willing to give up Mike Stanton, that shouldn't be vetoed based off rankings which would clearly rank Stanton higher.


2) ...serious unaccounted for injury risks? Vetoing a trade because you think one of the owners isn't accounting for an incoming player's injury risk? Really? We're going there? I doubt anyone is here medically educated enough to predict the fortune every player coming off Tommy John or ACL injury successfully or unsuccessfully. Sometimes they bounce back and sometimes they don't. That's a prime strategy in fantasy to "buy low" and/or "sell high".

3) ...ridiculous homerism clouding generally accepted value for a player. It's clearly within the realm of reason for an owner of one team to give up more than it would normally take to pry a player from their favorite team away from another owner. Not only is it reasonable. It's a damn good strategy. Think I'm gonna give you Justin Verlander for equal value? Hell no. You want him? You gotta make it worth my while and overpay some.

4) A person's strategy in constructing their team really shouldn't be taken into account, so long as they're making an honest effort to win. Again, it's pretty damn obvious if someone's intention is to lose. Yes, I agree... you can't veto based on another's strategy. That's why I didn't veto yo's (I don't know what he's thinking) strategy. Also, in a dynasty league, "win now" isn't the only interpretation of "making an honest effort to win". If someone finds themselves out of contention, and they are looking for future keeper value rather than "win now" value...and in turn, they slip in the rankings, that shouldn't be bashed. ...and that is EXACTLY what happened between GF and I. I was looking to "win now" in contention mode and he was looking for "future value". We both won the trade for what we were trying to do. Hell, this exact thing happens in MLB at the trade deadline. Teams buy and sell. The whole idea that you and BF made a fuss about the Uggla/Lawrie trade and to this day won't admit that's wrong is just ridiculous!
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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You can't compare players like that. It's irrational and false logic.

Example:
Is the 10th best catcher (maybe Wilson Ramos) as good as the 10th best first baseman (maybe Eric Hosmer)?

**** no he isn't.
Obviously. Thus the 6th SP (Felix Hernandez) is not equal to Heath Bell. But I think there is a large enough gap there. I really don't care that the trade went through, I'm just shocked how you think I'm completely out of my mind that this could be an unfair deal.
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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1) ...collusion, one owner not paying attention to obvious and overtly lopsided trades (that defy most independent player rankings). I don't think trades should be based off any "independent player rankings". There's so many things wrong with that. Our own projections could be way different for one. Two, the fact that rankings are always changing. Three, those lists aren't the best indicators for our own league settings. Four, they are just intended guides. They are not the Holy Bible of indicating whether a trade is fair or not.

ie. Maybe someone has a great hunch on a player who they think will breakout, and is willing to give up a clearly higher rated player (in present terms). That shouldn't be left to the group to veto because it doesn't match current value of "independent rankings". If I wanna trade for Matt Moore and am willing to give up Mike Stanton, that shouldn't be vetoed based off rankings which would clearly rank Stanton higher.


2) ...serious unaccounted for injury risks? Vetoing a trade because you think one of the owners isn't accounting for an incoming player's injury risk? Really? We're going there? I doubt anyone is here medically educated enough to predict the fortune every player coming off Tommy John or ACL injury successfully or unsuccessfully. Sometimes they bounce back and sometimes they don't. That's a prime strategy in fantasy to "buy low" and/or "sell high".

3) ...ridiculous homerism clouding generally accepted value for a player. It's clearly within the realm of reason for an owner of one team to give up more than it would normally take to pry a player from their favorite team away from another owner. Not only is it reasonable. It's a damn good strategy. Think I'm gonna give you Justin Verlander for equal value? Hell no. You want him? You gotta make it worth my while and overpay some.

4) A person's strategy in constructing their team really shouldn't be taken into account, so long as they're making an honest effort to win. Again, it's pretty damn obvious if someone's intention is to lose. Yes, I agree... you can't veto based on another's strategy. That's why I didn't veto yo's (I don't know what he's thinking) strategy. Also, in a dynasty league, "win now" isn't the only interpretation of "making an honest effort to win". If someone finds themselves out of contention, and they are looking for future keeper value rather than "win now" value...and in turn, they slip in the rankings, that shouldn't be bashed. ...and that is EXACTLY what happened between GF and I. I was looking to "win now" in contention mode and he was looking for "future value". We both won the trade for what we were trying to do. Hell, this exact thing happens in MLB at the trade deadline. Teams buy and sell. The whole idea that you and BF made a fuss about the Uggla/Lawrie trade and to this day won't admit that's wrong is just ridiculous!
D, you're taking these to the extreme. Almost none of them apply to our league. I was just citing broad examples of things that would invoke a possible veto.

Regarding independent player rankings: I agree with you. Rankings are not gospel. I'm just saying they can be a guide to reference if you REALLY think a trade is lopsided. They don't constitute a good justification for a veto by themselves because there's a lot more stuff to consider. In almost all cases, a simple eye test is enough to know whether a trade is overtly (and not just potentially) unfair or not. It's not the job of the rest of the league to launch an investigation into the strategic merits of both parties in the trade. You know an egregiously lopsided (or uncommon case of collusion) trade when you see it.

Regarding injury risks, I don't mean it the way you interpreted. It's not to account for future injuries. It's only to prevent existing injuries that someone may have overlooked while negotiating. Basically someone trying to pull a fast one after news breaks that a pitcher is about to have Tommy John surgery or something. This one almost never comes into play. I can't think of a single time when it has in this league.

Regarding homerism, it's not about what a Tigers fan would pay to acquire Verlander. Yes, chances are a Tigers fan might be more eager to acquire him. The only veto I'm suggesting on the grounds of homerism is someone saying, "**** it, I'm not trying to win this league, I only want to own my favorite players" and then paying any cost to get their favorite guy. Again, this has never been an issue in this league (with the exception of Yoda's love for Pujols, though his trade to acquire him years ago wasn't at all like this).

Regarding "an honest effort to win," the debate between playing to win now and building for the future is not what I had in mind here. I agree with your points. What I meant by "honest effort to win" was regarding a situation where one owner lost interest in their team and playing in the league and just succumbs to any trade offer they get because they no longer care. That isn't a problem in this league that I've noticed. I've replaced owners over the year that demonstrate a lack of interest.
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Obviously. Thus the 6th SP (Felix Hernandez) is not equal to Heath Bell. But I think there is a large enough gap there. I really don't care that the trade went through, I'm just shocked how you think I'm completely out of my mind that this could be an unfair deal.
There's a difference in my eyes between a deal that merely has POTENTIAL to be unequal and a deal that is OVERTLY unequal.
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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There's a difference in my eyes between a deal that merely has POTENTIAL to be unequal and a deal that is OVERTLY unequal.
And I think it was somewhere in between. It wasn't a travesty of a deal, but I do think it was unfair. And personally totally disagree with Yo's logic on giving up on saves. Maybe if he got back a decent position player.

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Old 03-29-2012, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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And I think it was somewhere in between. It wasn't a travesty of a deal, but I do think it was unfair. And personally totally disagree with Yo's logic on giving up on saves. Maybe if he got back a decent position player.
It isn't your job to assess his strategy. For every thing you cite as to why its a bad trade, he can cite something valid to combat it.

It's funny — every year, roughly half the league participates in trade activity, while the other half of the members make one or none per year and don't seem interested in discussing anything 98% of the time. Maybe if EVERYONE partook in trades, then it'd even the playing field a bit. I think those of us who are regularly involved in trades would love a chance to hold the limited or non-traders to a similar lofty standard. It's easy to hold people to absurd standards of perceived equality if you personally don't try to be an active trader.
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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It isn't your job to assess his strategy. For every thing you cite as to why its a bad trade, he can cite something valid to combat it.

It's funny every year, roughly half the league participates in trade activity, while the other half of the members make one or none per year and don't seem interested in discussing anything 98% of the time. Maybe if EVERYONE partook in trades, then it'd even the playing field a bit. I think those of us who are regularly involved in trades would love a chance to hold the limited or non-traders to a similar lofty standard. It's easy to hold people to absurd standards of perceived equality if you personally don't try to be an active trader.
LOL. Jughead and Max will NEVER EVER make a trade. They are perfectly content with 5th and 6th place finishes every year.
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