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Old 03-10-2012, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SuperPacker View Post
Ideal Rams draft IMO

2011
1 - Michael Floyd
2a - Stephen Gilmore
2b - Lamar Miller

2012
1a - DJ Fluker
1b - Manti Teo

You guys don't turn your clocks ahead over there?
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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You guys don't turn your clocks ahead over there?
Not quite sure what you mean. If you mean its a bit early to be predicting 2013 draft picks then yeah i know aha. Just having a look at what their roster could look like.
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
The people on NFL Network think Peyton should sign with Houston and make another Super Bowl run. They don't think Schaub is the answer, so what does that say about Flynn's potential according to you. I'd take Cassel over Schaub everyday of the year.

I'm breaking out a case of brew to drown my Brown sorrows in , want to join me.
Cassel over Schaub? Really? Schaub's a top 10 QB when healthy. He has had 4 good to great seasons as a starter, and was well on his way to another sterling All-Pro season, and physically, offers more than Cassel (a bit more, not a lot more). For all the talk about Andre Johnson, Schaub still excelled the past 2 seasons (prior to the injury this year) with Johnson banged up. For all the talk about how Schaub benefits from a strong running game, well, so did Cassel last year when he put together his one good year as a starter in KC. Schaub throws a better deep ball, drives the ball better outside of the numbers, is more accurate on intermediate routes, and has had the better production, and both guys operated offenses that could be argued as "QB-friendly".

I like Cassel, but I don't see what the case is to argue that Cassel is clearly ahead of Schaub "everyday of the year".
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
If CLE goes with JB and TB takes Mo, the Rams would definitely take Richardson.

If Blackmon goes top 5 and Mo is on the board, they'd probably take Richardson over Mo.
I don't know about that. Bartell is aging, Fletcher is coming off injury. Claiborne would make a ton of sense, at a more valuable position, adding another key piece to that defense.
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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I disagree with the idea that they shouldn't take him because 'you don't need a great RB.' You don't NEED anything. There isn't one blueprint for winning. Having a stud RB is a good thing, despite teams with stud RBs not winning the Super Bowl recently.

And I always take the best player regardless of position.

My board: 1) Luck 2) RG3 3) Kalil 4) Richardson

So that's where I disagree with y'all. I value Richardson more than y'all and I suspect NFL teams love him too. He's got almost zero risk and is going to be a heck of contributor from day one.
The issue is this - I bet you there are many GM's that would argue that, say, a combination of perhaps Doug Martin, a guy you could potentially get in the 2nd, and maybe a LaMichael James in the 3rd-4th might be as a productive as Richardson himself, which could allow you to address a more valuable position higher.

All that said, I don't think Richardson will fall too far either. There simply aren't that many elite guys out there, and he should go in the top 10, and probably top 6. That said, b/w Claiborne and Richardson, I don't know if the Rams definitely go Richardson as they have a severe need at CB as well, and Jackson/Caddy Williams can probably still work for another year. The best thing for them is that all these picks (plus the fact that it's a new regime) buys them time at a position like RB if they wanted, since they can grab a Delonne Carter type late or in UDFA as a 3rd back
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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Hopefully the Browns can trade back for a team that wants Blackmon or Claiborne and acquire a 1st next year or an additional couple picks this year.

Maybe Carolina trading this years first and next years from 4 to 9 to land Blackmon? IDK.

I guess the Browns could use him too... I think the fourth pick in the draft just became the most interesting one, no one's gonna have a ******* idea where we're going with this.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by toonsterwu View Post
It sounds like the Browns did offer three firsts. At least, that's what MKCabot is reporting.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/inde...traded_up.html

"The Browns tried hard to make a deal with the St. Louis Rams to move up to No. 2 in the NFL draft -- offering at least three first-round picks -- but lost out on the Robert Griffin III sweepstakes to the Washington Redskins, ESPN's Adam Schefter reported last night. "
she's just repeating what Schefter reported. I have on good authority that it wasn't true. They didn't offer 3 firsts, but they were offereing the #4, #22, and more...and it wasn't necessarily their final offer. The draft is still a month and a half away - I don't know why St.Louis felt they had to rush the deal, they probably could've gotten better if they waited...though I guess they felt that three firsts and a second was good enough and they didn't want to risk free agency diminishing the value of their pick.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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Running Game
Washington has a big edge here. Shanahan is a master of getting RB's like Helu to do well and thats what hes done. The Browns might not have Hillis, Hardesty too injury prone and neither of them would scare a defense.

Offensive Line
Both have some good players but could be upgraded. Browns have an issue at RT and so do the Redskins. Browns win because they have Joe Thomas.

Receivers
Redskins win here IMO. They have Santana Moss, Leonard Hankerson and Red Davis whilst the Browns have Greg Little. The Redskins are also more likely to get a big name free agent. Throw in Vincent Jackson and its an ideal receiving core.

Defense
Both have good defenses. Redskins have the better front 7 but the Browns have the better secondary.

Overall i think Washington is a better place for him to go.
The Browns do have a clear edge on OL for another reason - Trent Williams is still a work in progress AND he needs to lay off the weed. I also think the Browns defensive front 7 is a bit under-rated. I'd take the Redskins front 7 overall, I guess, but the Browns are an end and a LB away from having a very, very good 4-3 front 7 (this, of course, assumes that Sheard continues to develop, as I think he will).
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
Hopefully the Browns can trade back for a team that wants Blackmon or Claiborne and acquire a 1st next year or an additional couple picks this year.

Maybe Carolina trading this years first and next years from 4 to 9 to land Blackmon? IDK.

I guess the Browns could use him too... I think the fourth pick in the draft just became the most interesting one, no one's gonna have a ******* idea where we're going with this.
yeah, I could see us playing up the smokescreens with Blackmon, Richardson, and Claiborne to the max to get teams to try and give up a decent package so we can move down potentially. We really could use more picks than anything else right now as long as we don't move down too far. If they want Tannehill that would especially be an effective strategy.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by zachsaints52 View Post
If the Browns offered 3 1sts the Rams woulda jumped at it, knowing those 1sts are 150% more likely to be worse then the Redskins picks.
I totally disagree with this. One of those first rounders from the Browns was this year's #22 pick. I don't see the Redskins picking out of the top 10 in the next 3 drafts.

While the Redskins do now have their franchise QB, they are still the same organization. Arrogant owner, arrogant coach. I don't think this move in any way fixes the deep-seeded problems of an organization that doesn't have the patience to build a team from the ground up. In fact, I think it just gives them one more move that they will feel the need to justify and they will try to cover for this move by making a series of additional moves that will prevent them from becoming an annual contender.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SuperPacker View Post
Yeah he's a better prospect than, Newton, Bradford, Stafford and Ryan were.
Don't know about Bradford. Much as I wasn't as high on him (liked him a bit but always had some nagging doubt), a lot of people LOVED Bradford a ton that year. He was very, very well-regarded despite missing the season, and from a draft value perspective, IMO, was, at the same point, ahead of those other three names.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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Not quite sure what you mean. If you mean its a bit early to be predicting 2013 draft picks then yeah i know aha. Just having a look at what their roster could look like.
He's pointing out the fact that you have them listed as 2011 and 2012 drafts instead of 2012 and 2013 like it should say.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by zachsaints52 View Post
I would take #4, # 22, and their Top 5 next year rather then #6 and two non Top-10s
Adding RGIII to your team in no way guarantees that you will be picking outside of the top ten in '13 and '14
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
Hopefully the Browns can trade back for a team that wants Blackmon or Claiborne and acquire a 1st next year or an additional couple picks this year.

Maybe Carolina trading this years first and next years from 4 to 9 to land Blackmon? IDK.

I guess the Browns could use him too... I think the fourth pick in the draft just became the most interesting one, no one's gonna have a ******* idea where we're going with this.
I don't see Carolina moving up for Blackmon. It really sounds like they prefer to focus on defense if possible, with needs at CB, DT. If he fell in their laps, perhaps. Now, moving up for Claiborne? I could perhaps see that, but only if the price was right, which I doubt. At the end of the day, I'm just not sure which team would offer enough to jump into the 5 for the Browns to move down, though. The one slim possibility I mildly wonder about is whether or not the Jags may contemplate moving up for Blackmon, and the cost of 7 to 4 shouldn't be that bad, but even then, that doesn't strike me was a Gene Smith move for some reason (but when his "legacy" there is on the line with the Gabbert pick, maybe he changes his stripes).
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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she's just repeating what Schefter reported. I have on good authority that it wasn't true. They didn't offer 3 firsts, but they were offereing the #4, #22, and more...and it wasn't necessarily their final offer. The draft is still a month and a half away - I don't know why St.Louis felt they had to rush the deal, they probably could've gotten better if they waited...though I guess they felt that three firsts and a second was good enough and they didn't want to risk free agency diminishing the value of their pick.
I tend to think that this was the right time for the Rams for the reasons you note. Sure, they could've rolled the dice and waited, but as you note, the risk there was always that their market would diminish (that is, the Browns/Redskins would sign a QB, and those were the only two legitimate places for the move, IMO, due to the Dolphins being so far down the ladder). If they got the price they wanted, I think it made sense to not take that risk.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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I totally disagree with this. One of those first rounders from the Browns was this year's #22 pick. I don't see the Redskins picking out of the top 10 in the next 3 drafts.

While the Redskins do now have their franchise QB, they are still the same organization. Arrogant owner, arrogant coach. I don't think this move in any way fixes the deep-seeded problems of an organization that doesn't have the patience to build a team from the ground up. In fact, I think it just gives them one more move that they will feel the need to justify and they will try to cover for this move by making a series of additional moves that will prevent them from becoming an annual contender.
Actually, I think this further supports that they are building the team the right way. They spent the first two years clearing out bad contracts and fixing the awful cap situation the Redskins were annually in (granted, they got some help with the CBA situation). They spent last year building up the supporting cast a bit, have money to add to that (the defensive front could be really, really good, and the OL is decent-solid if Trent Williams lays off the weed and they add a RT). At a certain point, you have to make a move for a QB, and instead of going after an older guy and potentially repeating the McNabb mistake, they go after a guy that could be the star for the next decade. From a supporting cast perspective, they really are a lead WR and a RT away from perhaps being an above average group that would only be waiting on the QB to develop.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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I hate to say it but we aren't Flynn first choice for his destination, we had better hope Miami gets Manning otherwise we are totally out of it.

I think Tannehill will be our pick at #4, a huge risk if you ask me.

The Rams got 1 first by drafting standards and had to give up their first to get it. Next year's first is only worth a 2nd rounder if you follow the draft, and a 1st rounder 2 years from now carries the weight of a third round pick in any trade scenario. It will be years after all before they get any benefit from this trade which cost them Blackmon as well.

IMO, the Skins didn't get raped at all, they got off pretty cheap.


If they had traded with Cleveland, they could have got perhaps, 2 firsts this year and maybe a second plus 2 or 3 high picks next year, got Blackmon and set up their team for immediate improvement and being a contender within 3 years. Now it is clearly a 5 year project for the Rams, so I'm not sold on the value St. Louis got for this trade, looks good on paper but added 2 years to reaching competitive status.
Whoever came up with this theory that future picks are worth less than current picks was someone who put no stock whatsoever in his team being able to contend every year. It is a justification for paying too much for a player because you had to have what you wanted RIGHT NOW.

That #22 pick in this year's draft isn't nearly as valuable as a top 10 pick in '13 or '14. The team trading up always justifies it by thinking that this player will make us so much better that those future picks will be late in the round. And by mortgaging the future, those future picks almost always end up being really early.

The Redskins are a mess from the top down. How cheap is this trade gonna feel for the next two years if the Rams are picking top talent "F/Washington"?
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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How are the Redskins a mess from the top-down? I don't necessarily disagree on the future value part (teams always find ways to rationalize trades, and while several teams in the past have utilized the 1 round downgrade on future value, that typically only references 1 year in the future picks (thus, saying a pick 2 years down the line is only worth the 3rd exaggerates the effect a bit too much). Furthermore, other teams use the half-method. Either way, while there is a downgrade in terms of valuation (which also might be adjusted due to the new CBA) for future picks, simply saying it follows one method is probably a bit too much).

But back on the Skins for a sec. How are they a mess from the top-down? It's actually a fairly stream-lined, well-run organization in the last 2 years. Whether or not that continues, who knows, but in the Shanahan era so far, Snyder has, by most accounts, according to the local folks, stayed out of the football decisions. Shanahan makes all the personnel decisions, Allen clears the cap. They did it the right way as well, in that, they cleared out the money situation first and built up the supporting cast.

--- Edit: I know there was some talk on whether or not they needed to revamp their scouting staff, so maybe that's a legitimate critique, but that doesn't really speak to how well-run the organization is, but whether or not they have selected the right people. ---

It doesn't diminish that this is a good trade for the Rams (although I highly doubt the Skins will be in the top 10 both of the next 2 seasons), but the Skins as a mess from top-down? Don't see it.

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Old 03-10-2012, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Well, right now I think Miami tops the list of potential suitors for Manning so most likely he goes there. And Holmegren has a history of getting a QB he likes from another team. i.e. Favre and Hasselbeck. So unless the Cards or Broncos sign Manning I feel Flynn has a pretty good chance of signing with the browns.

And I highly doubt the Browns take Tannehill at #4. If they take him it will be because they traded down with someone in love with Blackmon or Kalil and they get more picks and take him about 10. What I see happening is the Browns stay at #4 and take Blackmon or Claiborne and take a QB in the second or third round like Foles or Osweiler. Unless they get Flynn then they are good at QB.
Jason LaConfora was talking last night that there will be a lot of trade talk heating up for Tannehill in the top 10. I wouldn't be at all surprised if things get out of control again and there ends up being a bidding war for him, maybe even at #3 with Minnesota. He is in no way a top 5 talent, but there are 6 teams left in need for a QB (Cleveland, Miami, Seattle, Denver, Kansas City and Arizona) and only 3 QB's left (Manning, Flynn and Tannehill). Additionally, there is a lot of talk going around right now that Flynn isn't all that. One writer compared him to Steve Bono in an article yesterday.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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Late first rounders are not valuable at all. RG3 is worth these picks easily. Expect the Redskins to challenge for a wildcard next year.
I am fully counting on both of those future first rounders being top 10 picks.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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How are the Redskins a mess from the top-down? I don't necessarily disagree on the future value part (teams always find ways to rationalize trades, and while several teams in the past have utilized the 1 round downgrade on future value, that typically only references 1 year in the future picks (thus, saying a pick 2 years down the line is only worth the 3rd exaggerates the effect a bit too much). Furthermore, other teams use the half-method. Either way, while there is a downgrade in terms of valuation (which also might be adjusted due to the new CBA) for future picks, simply saying it follows one method is probably a bit too much).

But back on the Skins for a sec. How are they a mess from the top-down? It's actually a fairly stream-lined, well-run organization in the last 2 years. Whether or not that continues, who knows, but in the Shanahan era so far, Snyder has, by most accounts, according to the local folks, stayed out of the football decisions. Shanahan makes all the personnel decisions, Allen clears the cap. They did it the right way as well, in that, they cleared out the money situation first and built up the supporting cast.

Edit: I know there was some talk on whether or not they needed to revamp their scouting staff, so maybe that's a legitimate critique, but that doesn't really speak to how well-run the organization is, but whether or not they have selected the right people.

It doesn't diminish that this is a good trade for the Rams (although I highly doubt the Skins will be in the top 10 both of the next 2 seasons), but the Skins as a mess from top-down? Don't see it.
You're speaking to an optimistic Rams fan. He's trying to convince himself they are future top ten picks because in his mind it makes the trade that much sweeter. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a great deal for both teams. Realistically, the Redskins were a playoff team this past season with a competent QB. Grossman and Beck are both beyond awful. They have a solid D as it is, and adding a Vincent Jackson type receiver will give them a pretty solid receiving core (don't forget Leonard Hankerson, who started to light it up prior to his injury). Keep in mind RGIII will only improve the Skins' rushing attack, I call it the Michael Vick effect, teams now always have to be worried about a potential bootleg and Griffin coming off the edge. I'm very excited to see how RGIII does for the Redskins.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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Jason LaConfora was talking last night that there will be a lot of trade talk heating up for Tannehill in the top 10. I wouldn't be at all surprised if things get out of control again and there ends up being a bidding war for him, maybe even at #3 with Minnesota. He is in no way a top 5 talent, but there are 6 teams left in need for a QB (Cleveland, Miami, Seattle, Denver, Kansas City and Arizona) and only 3 QB's left (Manning, Flynn and Tannehill). Additionally, there is a lot of talk going around right now that Flynn isn't all that. One writer compared him to Steve Bono in an article yesterday.
I think my thoughts are

a) With Tannehill, most teams will likely wait to see how the FA's fall.
b) I think with the Broncos, Peyton was the exception to the Tebow rule. I have a hard, hard time seeing them go with Flynn or Tannehill over giving Tebow another year (could see them draft a 2nd-3rd round QB to develop, but a high cost-FA or a high 1st? Don't see it yet.)
c) I'm not so sure that KC/Arizona are going to dump their QB options to go with Tannehill either. Again, I think there's a Peyton exception to these teams as well, and for understandable reasons, but these are teams looking to compete now, and Tannehill doesn't achieve that.

d) I actually think Flynn is a bit over-hyped. I don't see how he's significantly better than say, a Brian Hoyer with the Pats (who I still think the Pats would shop if the right offer came). I mean, Hoyer on a mid-round pick and still signed for a year or Flynn on a big contract for multiple years? Flynn may be better, but I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer seeing if the Pats would move Hoyer instead.

e) All that said, all you need is 2 to have a market, and the top three teams would be enough to create a mini-market if enough of them wanted Tannehill that bad. At the end of the day, I think everyone is waiting on the Peyton decision. If Peyton goes to Miami, and Flynn signs with, say, Seattle, I think you'll see the latter three squads on your list back off QB's. Now, don't think Tannehill would fall to the 20's, although you never know, but there are definitely scenarios where him going in the top 10 is far from a lock (there's still a tiny, tiny part of me that does wonder whether or not Buffalo might quietly consider him, depending on their board).
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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You don't get elite talent outside the top 5 picks in a draft unless you luck out. With the rams terrible drafting I don't expect anything much to come out their picks.

They should've taken RG3 and traded Bradford. RG3 would've made that dome his personal playground.
Yes, the Rams have had horrible drafts. None of those people are on our staff anymore.

Les Snead is highly regarded for his talent evaluation, as is Jeff Fisher. Our problems are not solved by any means. We have a ton of holes to fill, and lack talent and/or depth at every position. That being said, there is a new system in place, and I believe winning is in our future.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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Terry Pluto is one of the most level headed sports writers we have. Here's his take. Not a lot we don't know, but it's interesting to see him trashing the Redskins management anyways from his perspective.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/...medium=twitter

While I wish we made the trade, I certainly can see that there is a pretty damn good chance that not making it ends up being a good idea for the Browns once we see who we draft with those picks we would've traded and (hopefully) what our alternative at QB ends up being. I do believe that the Redskins probably are going to not regret the trade, but becoming a legit super bowl contender is going to have to be put off until they can start building around Griffin through the draft again 3+ years from now.
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