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Old 03-10-2012, 08:18 PM    (permalink
stlouisfan37
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If the Browns offered what i said there would be no reason for the Rams to say no. A higher 1st, a 1st in 2012 instead of 2014 and a higher 2nd round pick.
That 1st in 2012 could translate into a guy like Wright or Jeffery. The 2014 1st could translate into a guy like Sammy Watkins. Who would you rather have? Having the pick RIGHT NOW is only an advantage if you think the guy you might get right now is as good or better than the guy you might get down the road. In my estimation, 22 is an easy O/U pick on a Redskins draft choice.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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That 1st in 2012 could translate into a guy like Wright or Jeffery. The 2014 1st could translate into a guy like Sammy Watkins. Who would you rather have? Having the pick RIGHT NOW is only an advantage if you think the guy you might get right now is as good or better than the guy you might get down the road. In my estimation, 22 is an easy O/U pick on a Redskins draft choice.
But its 2014. Teams want to win now not in 2 years time.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:22 PM    (permalink
stlouisfan37
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Yeah you're right he probably wont last until the 3rd round but it was a best case scenario for the Rams. Robert Turbin would be a nice pick up for you aswell.
I really like Robert Turbin, and I think he will last a lot longer than the Miller/Wilson/Martin/Polk group, although I think he probably deserves to be in that discussion. Miller may have separated himself from that group a bit, and could land in the 1st round.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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While Snyder may have stepped back some since Shanahan took over, I don't for one second believe that it will last. What you are suggesting yourself by going out and making a huge splash in FA to get the necessary pieces is the worst thing the Redskins could possibly do, because I don't think Snyder can control himself.

I also think that this move here was Shanahan trying to save his own job, and not necessarily in the best interest of the franchise. The Redskins have mortgaged a lot and moves like these rarely work out for the team that moves up. They never take into account things like depth in the event that key players are injured; you are essentially giving another team three (potential) young starters and relegate yourself to finding replacements that other teams either feel are not good enough or too expensive to keep.

You are also assuming that the big FA signings you are talking about as a compliment to this move are going to work out. How has that worked out in the past for the Redskins? Not very well. There have been several years in Washington since Daniel Snyder bought the team that the Redskins were by far the best team in the NFL "on paper," but the results have never materialized.

I don't mean to bash your team, and I apologize if I came off that way. But to read these posts it very much sounds like Redskins fans think that they have received the answer to all of their problems. When I read things like "I think we should give up whatever it takes to get this guy," and then the team follows suit, it really makes me think that both the team and its fans have lost touch with reality, at least to some extent.

Know this for sure; when the '13 and '14 drafts roll around, you will feel it when your team has to wait until the second day to take a player, and you won't always be saying, "But at least we have RGIII."
First, to get this out of the way, I'm not a Redskins fan. I follow the Skins, but I'm not a Skins fan and have never been. Partial? Yes. Growing up there would make anyone partial.

a) Again, adding through FA doesn't mean you aren't building the right way. I don't see the argument to suggest that this is akln to the Skins spending methods in the Snyder/Cerrato era UNLESS they splurge on multiple positions that don't demand it. Actually, adding through FA for a WR after going up for your QB like this is as much about building for the future (helping your WR develop) as it is for the present.

b) Unless you know something the locals don't, Snyder isn't actively involved in any of the football decisions and hasn't been. He'll fuel up his jet if Shanahan wants it, though.

c) Is Shanahan perhaps feeling some pressure? Sure. It's year 3. But

i) You are talking about the QB position. If you believe a guy is a franchise QB that strongly, it is always better to make the gamble for the guy.

ii) You seem to be discounting the excellent job the Redskins have done in the past two years in building their team. There's 2-3 capable backs that should do well in the scheme. There's a dynamic young TE that finally developed, and there's WR depth. Defensively, they are solid in the front 7.

iii) Since you are referencing depth, how much depth are they stripping per draft? If you have your stars in place, your key starters in place, then you still have multiple picks each year to fill things in. It's not like they gave up multiple picks in the next two years.

d) Don't see the relevancy of Snyder's past FA moves as it relates to now. Unless you have some information I haven't heard, Snyder simply isn't involved in the football decisions anymore. Maybe he changes his mind if they have a poor season again, but there's nothing in the DC area to suggest that he's involved, outside of approving decisions, as is his job as owner.

e) Again, the Redskins leadership believed that strongly in RG3. I don't think you can ever fault a team for going after a QB they believe in that strongly. Entering the off-season, I thought they would play it safe, get the veteran in place that could perhaps lead them to a .500 season and draft some youngster in the 2nd/3rd round to develop. But they clearly like RG3 that much. If they are wrong, fine, hindsight will be the ultimate judge. But I don't think I can fault a team for making this sort of move, particularly if they are building the right way. Much as I believe that you don't necessarily need an elite QB to win in the NFL (now, to win championships is a different story), it's always easier to have a franchise QB, to say the least. And from a talent perspective, RG3 is awfully, awfully, awfully good.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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I really like Robert Turbin, and I think he will last a lot longer than the Miller/Wilson/Martin/Polk group, although I think he probably deserves to be in that discussion. Miller may have separated himself from that group a bit, and could land in the 1st round.
TBH i dont think we'll see 4 runningbacks go in the second round so its not out of the question of for the Rams to get one of those four.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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But its 2014. Teams want to win now not in 2 years time.
Yeah, but we're talking about the Rams, a team that needs a #1 receiver, an OT, a RB to replace SJ in a couple years, some DTs, some more LBs, some safeties and more impact players all over the place. They're still rebuilding and having that extra first rounder always leaves trading up in next year's draft as an option if they find themselves further along the road to success than they thought they were.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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Fair point. I'd argue (while also noting that I said they were roughly 1 year ahead in rebuilding, which isn't anything these days in the NFL), on paper (see note at end), that the Redskins have

a) the better personnel offensive supporting cast to help a QB develop. They will either have 2-3 very effective backs, which is fine in the NFL. They have better weapons at WR as of now (before FA). I like Davis attacking the seams, and Moss is fine if he's not utilized as the key option. There's a lot more question marks, IMO, surrounding the Browns weapons around whoever is at QB. Because of Joe Thomas, the Browns OL is better, but I like the interior of the Redskins OL a bit more than the Browns, relative to their schemes (roughly Lichtensteiger, Montgomery, Chester ... they could use an upgrade, though).

b) I'm aware of the numbers for each defense, but I'm looking at it more from a personnel perspective. The Redskins have two pass rushers in place and better depth on the DL for their scheme (obviously, not fair to compare b/w the schemes, so just noting talent for the schemes). As solid as the Skins DL was, it's easy to forget that they were missing the guy that the staff thought was their best DL player. I was a big, big fan of Rubin and Sheard, and I like Taylor, but I don't love the Browns DL depth. The key is the 2nd pass rusher in place. The Browns secondary is a tick better in terms of talent, but Josh Wilson played well as the season progressed.

Notes -

- If it sounded like I was suggesting there was a big gap, I apologize. I should've been clearer and explained specifically (or in more detail) what I meant by 1 year ahead, which isn't much in the NFL as teams can be built on the fly (relatively speaking) if they are really, really smart and good in their scouting. Can I see a point in saying that it's close? Sure, I can see it. That sort of ties in with

- Both teams have a lot of young talent on the rosters. It's possible that guys take major steps next year, which could reshape things (thus, maybe Little takes another step. Maybe Sheard continues to dominate, and enhancing his overall game. Perhaps one of the young DB's take another step to shore things up in the secondary a tick more). But, that works for both teams, offensively and defensively. I mean, there's some intrigue with Willie Smith and Maurice Hurt, and while the Skins are unlikely to give the job to either of them, it wouldn't surprise me if one of them won a starting job on merit next year (Smith moreso than Hurt). Hankerson and Niles Paul were impressing in practice, IIRC. Not enough to take away the need for WR, but enough that they could step forward.
this is really microanalyzing the Redskins defense vs the Browns.....but really in general both have a lot of pieces in place there. The Browns might not have two great pass rushers like Washington, but they have Jackson, Gocong, Rubin, Taylor, Sheard, Haden, and Ward in place as very good young starters to build around.

Most of Washington's defensive guys are veterans that you win now with, not in the future. They have Orakpo/Kerrigan/Bowen as core guys who could be there a long time that you build around. Landry is a free agent, Fletcher will be done in a year or two, Atogwe is on the wrong side of 30. Hall and Cofield are in their prime, but by the time Griffin is ready to lead them to the promised land those guys will be gone. I don't see them sustaining their defensive talent for very long without those picks they traded away.

But on offense it's really a wash. Offensive line needs fixed and WR needs a total makeover. They can build a great offense by free agency once they have the key compenent in place with Griffin, it might not last long term, but long enough until they finally start getting draft picks again.

That's microanalyzing too, but the point remains that the Redskins aren't really in that much better shape than the Browns. They are more of a finished product that is ready to win now on defense, but they aren't a QB away any more than we are I don't think.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Why is there pressure for the Skins to win next season with a rookie QB? That doesn't make sense. If anything it buys the front office and coach some time to develop the guy.

For anybody saying that the Browns are "building through the draft" ... what are they building? Colt McCoy is awful. I'm sorry, but he just is. And they had a chance to get an elite level prospect to build around, and they blew it. I'd bet just about anything that the Redskins get to the playoffs before the Browns despite paying what some call "a huge price" to get Griffin.
Daniel Snyder is impatient. The coaching turnover in Washington is fairly ridiculous. It has not been a stable organization since he took over. Another last place finish in the division will more than likely cost Shanahan his job rookie QB or not.

To be honest the Browns can have a chance to get both Blackmon and Trent Richardson in this draft. You plug those two guys into the line up and it can have a profound impact on a team.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Why is there pressure for the Skins to win next season with a rookie QB? That doesn't make sense. If anything it buys the front office and coach some time to develop the guy.

For anybody saying that the Browns are "building through the draft" ... what are they building? Colt McCoy is awful. I'm sorry, but he just is. And they had a chance to get an elite level prospect to build around, and they blew it. I'd bet just about anything that the Redskins get to the playoffs before the Browns despite paying what some call "a huge price" to get Griffin.
Good point. But would you bet anything that the Redskins will make the playoffs three years in a row before the Browns do?
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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That 1st in 2012 could translate into a guy like Wright or Jeffery. The 2014 1st could translate into a guy like Sammy Watkins. Who would you rather have? Having the pick RIGHT NOW is only an advantage if you think the guy you might get right now is as good or better than the guy you might get down the road. In my estimation, 22 is an easy O/U pick on a Redskins draft choice.
I think you'd be surprised at how many people would take the pick and talent now. It's easy as a fan to look foward. For general managers/coaches, the talent now may mean saving a job. It's not impossible to envision a scenario where, say, Holmgren and Shurmur won't be in charge in 2014.

As a side note, LOVE Kendall Wright. As a pro receiver, based off the minimal that we know of Wright and Watkins right now, if you asked me to make a choice, I'd take Wright.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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But its 2014. Teams want to win now not in 2 years time.
Obviously, the Rams front office believes that this process will take time and that it was worth the wait. 2014 will come, and they will be glad they have the pick when it gets here.

This is just my opinion, but I don't see a real difference-maker at #22 in this draft. Now, obviously I am wrong, because there will almost certainly be a guy drafted after that who ends up being a total stud. But no one will have known about it beforehand.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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Jason LaConfora was talking last night that there will be a lot of trade talk heating up for Tannehill in the top 10. I wouldn't be at all surprised if things get out of control again and there ends up being a bidding war for him, maybe even at #3 with Minnesota. He is in no way a top 5 talent, but there are 6 teams left in need for a QB (Cleveland, Miami, Seattle, Denver, Kansas City and Arizona) and only 3 QB's left (Manning, Flynn and Tannehill). Additionally, there is a lot of talk going around right now that Flynn isn't all that. One writer compared him to Steve Bono in an article yesterday.
I think Tannehill will go a lot higher than he is ranked. Hell, he is grading out where Locker, Ponder, Mallet and Dalton did for me last year. I had all four end first early second picks. But QB is a premier position and teams reach. The funny thing is I have Tannehill ranked just ahead of Osweiler and Foles. And I wouldn't be surprised if those two have better careers than Tannehill.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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Good point. But would you bet anything that the Redskins will make the playoffs three years in a row before the Browns do?
How many teams currently in the NFL have made the playoffs 3 years in a row?

Pats
Ravens
Packers
Saints

The Steelers and Giants have both won multiple Super Bowls, but even they couldn't do it year in and year out.

So that's really not a good benchmark.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:35 PM    (permalink
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TBH i dont think we'll see 4 runningbacks go in the second round so its not out of the question of for the Rams to get one of those four.
I think Miller goes in the 1st, though. You are correct, though, that there is a lot of depth and teams can probably wait until later for a back.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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First, to get this out of the way, I'm not a Redskins fan. I follow the Skins, but I'm not a Skins fan and have never been. Partial? Yes. Growing up there would make anyone partial.

a) Again, adding through FA doesn't mean you aren't building the right way. I don't see the argument to suggest that this is akln to the Skins spending methods in the Snyder/Cerrato era UNLESS they splurge on multiple positions that don't demand it. Actually, adding through FA for a WR after going up for your QB like this is as much about building for the future (helping your WR develop) as it is for the present.

b) Unless you know something the locals don't, Snyder isn't actively involved in any of the football decisions and hasn't been. He'll fuel up his jet if Shanahan wants it, though.

c) Is Shanahan perhaps feeling some pressure? Sure. It's year 3. But

i) You are talking about the QB position. If you believe a guy is a franchise QB that strongly, it is always better to make the gamble for the guy.

ii) You seem to be discounting the excellent job the Redskins have done in the past two years in building their team. There's 2-3 capable backs that should do well in the scheme. There's a dynamic young TE that finally developed, and there's WR depth. Defensively, they are solid in the front 7.

iii) Since you are referencing depth, how much depth are they stripping per draft? If you have your stars in place, your key starters in place, then you still have multiple picks each year to fill things in. It's not like they gave up multiple picks in the next two years.

d) Don't see the relevancy of Snyder's past FA moves as it relates to now. Unless you have some information I haven't heard, Snyder simply isn't involved in the football decisions anymore. Maybe he changes his mind if they have a poor season again, but there's nothing in the DC area to suggest that he's involved, outside of approving decisions, as is his job as owner.

e) Again, the Redskins leadership believed that strongly in RG3. I don't think you can ever fault a team for going after a QB they believe in that strongly. Entering the off-season, I thought they would play it safe, get the veteran in place that could perhaps lead them to a .500 season and draft some youngster in the 2nd/3rd round to develop. But they clearly like RG3 that much. If they are wrong, fine, hindsight will be the ultimate judge. But I don't think I can fault a team for making this sort of move, particularly if they are building the right way. Much as I believe that you don't necessarily need an elite QB to win in the NFL (now, to win championships is a different story), it's always easier to have a franchise QB, to say the least. And from a talent perspective, RG3 is awfully, awfully, awfully good.
All points well taken. I think we may need to agree to disagree. I just think that giving up what the Redskins did goes against my philosophy. In my mind it was too much to give up for any player.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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How many teams currently in the NFL have made the playoffs 3 years in a row?

Pats
Ravens
Packers
Saints

The Steelers and Giants have both won multiple Super Bowls, but even they couldn't do it year in and year out.

So that's really not a good benchmark.
That's his point though. If the Skins don't get into the playoffs just one of those three years they'll be getting a better pick than the 22nd pick they'd be getting from the Browns.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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this is really microanalyzing the Redskins defense vs the Browns.....but really in general both have a lot of pieces in place there. The Browns might not have two great pass rushers like Washington, but they have Jackson, Gocong, Rubin, Taylor, Sheard, Haden, and Ward in place as very good young starters to build around.

Most of Washington's defensive guys are veterans that you win now with, not in the future. They have Orakpo/Kerrigan/Bowen as core guys who could be there a long time that you build around. Landry is a free agent, Fletcher will be done in a year or two, Atogwe is on the wrong side of 30. Hall and Cofield are in their prime, but by the time Griffin is ready to lead them to the promised land those guys will be gone. I don't see them sustaining their defensive talent for very long without those picks they traded away.

But on offense it's really a wash. Offensive line needs fixed and WR needs a total makeover. They can build a great offense by free agency once they have the key compenent in place with Griffin, it might not last long term, but long enough until they finally start getting draft picks again.

That's microanalyzing too, but the point remains that the Redskins aren't really in that much better shape than the Browns. They are more of a finished product that is ready to win now on defense, but they aren't a QB away any more than we are I don't think.
I think you are missing my takeaway on the offense, which is that I think the Redskins situation, as of right now, March 2012, is a better fit for a young QB than the Browns.

Leaving that aside, since it's not a big disagreement, micro-analyzing things for a moment, I would just note that if you are going to put D'Qwell and Gocong in there (and I'm not sure Gocong deserves to be in there, other than that he fills a role for them right now ... I think they'd love to upgrade Gocong if possible), Cofield is actually younger than both and what he's asked to do at the nose is something that he can probably do for at least another 5 years (if he's there ... again, never know when a guy falls apart, but a guy like Jackson losing a step could hurt his value a lot). If we're going to talk about TJ Ward as someone to build around, then you can't forget about DeJon Gomes and Jarvis Jenkins. Even though Jenkins missed the season, I'm not sure there's enough from Ward's half-season to suggest that we definitely know enough to feel that much better about his chances than Jenkins, who was viewed early on as the Skins top DL guy. Gomes drew raves late in the year, enough that it wouldn't surprise me if he won the SS job on merit. Also, can't leave out Perry Riley, who looked really, really good when he got the PT over McIntosh. I'd also note that Carriker is only 27, and because he missed a year, wear and tear isn't that bad either.

Won't even bother defending D Hall. Overpaid and not good.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:46 PM    (permalink
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That's his point though. If the Skins don't get into the playoffs just one of those three years they'll be getting a better pick than the 22nd pick they'd be getting from the Browns.
If the Browns had the sack to match the offer with #4 and #22 this year, instead of a future 1 the Skins were offering, the Rams would've made a deal with the Browns.

I don't see any debating that.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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Doesn't matter. Browns will have (most likely) Flynn, Richardson or Blackmon, a player to pick from at 22, and a player at 37.

Redskins will end up with RG3, and their free agent crop. I think the Browns and Redskins are going to be compared for the years to come, as well as the Rams as this trade sets up a lot of comparisons for the three teams moving forward.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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How many teams currently in the NFL have made the playoffs 3 years in a row?

Pats
Ravens
Packers
Saints

The Steelers and Giants have both won multiple Super Bowls, but even they couldn't do it year in and year out.

So that's really not a good benchmark.
Those teams are currently in three year streaks...it is very cyclical...prior to this season the Colts went several years in a row, as have the Eagles, Cowboys, Seahawks, Titans, Chargers....so what I was suggesting was, maybe the Redskins make the playoffs sooner, but will it be an upswing that lasts? There are a lot of things that I don't like about Mike Holmgren, but I think he will get longterm results and the Browns will have a good solid run as a perennial playoff team before they have to scratch their coaching staff and start over. Do you believe that that happens in Washington?
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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yeah, the Redskins are good on defense. I'm sure they'll be fine there for a while. I forgot about Jenkins, and I guess you can include Cofield into their core, I guess since he's a free agent acquisition it seems like he's not destined to be there very long b/c of how often free agents get cut due to backloaded contracts....and Gocong isn't a pro bowler or anything but he was awesome last year when he moved to SAM linebacker and he got a contract extension so he'll be a part of this defense until he's old and washed up. Browns are good defensively too. Neither unit can be used as a negative really when talking about what shape the teams are in.

The only real thing to debate is the offensive talent. The Redskins don't really have anything except Fred Davis to throw to. The Browns I think have Greg Little and little else at WR. Joshua Cribbs is a great playmaker on offense, but he's not a pure WR. Both teams need at least 1 or 2 good offensive linemen badly. Washington is okay at RB. Cleveland had an awesome running game with Peyton Hillis in 2010. If they resign him it will be no worries there between him, Hardest, and Jackson, but that's a big if. If they don't resign him I'm positive they'll find a replacement in free agency. RB isn't really a sticking point b/c of how interchangeable a RB is in the NFL these days. I don't see much on the Redskins offensive roster that makes them any more appealing than Cleveland - who are about as unappealing of an offensive team as you will find in the league. Santanna Moss is done, nobody else on that team is worthy of starting at WR. The Browns at least potentially get Steinbach back (unless they cut him) and have a decent corps of complimentary pieces (Little, Cribbs, MoMass, Evan Moore, Ben Watson, Jordan Norwood) - they are really one big time playmaking #1 WR away in that department. If they get a #1 and a QB then it's smooth sailing from then on in the offensive rebuild. The offensive talent level between those teams is very very similar. Neither is a good spot for a young QB in terms of what he has to work with.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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Doesn't matter. Browns will have (most likely) Flynn, Richardson or Blackmon, a player to pick from at 22, and a player at 37.

Redskins will end up with RG3, and their free agent crop. I think the Browns and Redskins are going to be compared for the years to come, as well as the Rams as this trade sets up a lot of comparisons for the three teams moving forward.
Why do you think Flynn is going to the Browns? Who would choose to go to the Browns right now? Looks like you're stuck with McCoy

Actually you know what would be hilarious? If the Browns trade up from #22 to get Tannehill.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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Why do you think Flynn is going to the Browns? Who would choose to go to the Browns right now? Looks like you're stuck with McCoy

Actually you know what would be hilarious? If the Browns trade up from #22 to get Tannehill.
well if the Dolphins sign Manning, then I don't think anyone will be as hot for Flynn as the Browns, and money talks. I think he's a safe bet to land with the Dolphins or Browns at this point.
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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Doesn't matter. Browns will have (most likely) Flynn, Richardson or Blackmon, a player to pick from at 22, and a player at 37.

Redskins will end up with RG3, and their free agent crop. I think the Browns and Redskins are going to be compared for the years to come, as well as the Rams as this trade sets up a lot of comparisons for the three teams moving forward.
I think the Rams are by far the least talented of these three teams. They do have two young DE's and a very good middle linebacker on defense. An argument could be made that Mikell is a very good safety as well, but injuries plagued the secondary so much last year that it is really hard to see much promise in that group.

Offensively, they have Bradford, an aging (albeit great) RB in Jackson, a promising young TE who has yet to show he can stay healthy, and many question marks. That #22 pick this year would have been nice, I will give you that. But it could be huge in two years when they have a nice strong core of talent, especially if things don't go perfectly in Washington and it ends up being a really high pick.
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:08 PM    (permalink
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Why do you think Flynn is going to the Browns? Who would choose to go to the Browns right now? Looks like you're stuck with McCoy

Actually you know what would be hilarious? If the Browns trade up from #22 to get Tannehill.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...packers-backup

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/pos...-to-the-browns

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/ey...for-the-browns

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/3/10...-twice-in-2012

I don't know, what makes you think they won't considering about everyone else thinks the Browns will get him (I'm not using those links as foregone conclusions or saying they're super reliable, just that it seems to be common knowledge that the Browns should be interested in Flynn.)
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