#3 Tackle - Martin or Adams?

[keylime_5]

We all know that Adams gets inconsistent with his technique. Sometimes he just shuts guys down and he has never really had trouble with speed as much as guys using different moves and stunts. He has the feet and size/strength combo to be a pro bowl left tackle if he can gain consistency. We all saw in the senior bowl how impressive he can be.


Also, Jonathan Martin's pro day results were not very impressive

As impressive as DeCastro was, former linemate Jonathan Martin was disappointing.

Advertised as a top-notch athlete, the First Team All-Pac 12 left tackle was timed at 5.33 seconds in his first attempt at the 40-yard dash. Worse, this attempt was aided by the wind. Martin came in at 5.43 seconds, according to scouts, on his second attempt against the wind. Perhaps more alarming was that the 6-5, 307-pound Martin lifted the bar only 20 times during the bench press and wasn't as fluid or explosive as DeCastro during position drills.

Martin was also just average in the vertical (30") and broad jump (8'8") - at least in comparison to how other highly regarded offensive tackles performed at the Combine. While Martin's disappointing Pro Day will no doubt raise some concerns, three impressive years protecting Luck's blind side speaks for itself and will almost surely keep the big man in the draft's initial frame.

I mean, his numbers were slightly better than Mike Adams' (very slightly) but Martin is not nearly as big or as physical as Mike and is supposedly a soft player who gets by on his skills as a pure pass blocker. I know a lot of people don't like Martin. A lot of teams love Adams despite his poor combine b/c of his potential. It will be interesting to see where those two guys end up being taken.

[Sloopy]

Originally Posted by FordFairlane

Look again Bucky.


Wow, what rose colored glasses. Or Buckeye red Colored glasses you see the world through. The QB ran into the sack after having to evade Adams man. If Adams would have blocked him he wouldn't have been sacked.


That's where I got my video from. You are just a homer pimping your favorite college football team. Hey, I get it. I think Derek Moye is going to be a very good NFL receiver but I also am realistic saying you don't take Moye late in the first over Alshon Jeffery because you think they are similar players. I know Moye will go in the 4th-7th rounds because there are players at the same position most teams have ranked a lot higher than him. I feel teams will have Martin ranked a lot higher than Adams because Martin is a superior athlete and has a higher character than Adams.

But I guess we have about a month to find out. I say Martin goes ahead of Adams and is a top 20 pick and Adams is a late first early second round pick. I have him ranked about the same as Derrick Sherrod from last year.

LOL

You can argue that the guy got the sack all you want but the fact is that Miller was being wrapped up by two other players before that guy got there. I don't care who ESPN shows getting up from the play.

Still, you are correct in saying that he used bad form, I was merely pointing out that your information was false that it directly lead to the sack, which it is.

However, this is not the point. The point is that you picked 3 plays out of an entire game where he showed bad form... congratulations?

The other 15 passing attempts that game (18 attempts IIRC give or take one or two) he was fine.

Adams may not be a complete player but I would put him on the same level talent-wise with Reiff except for the fact that I believe Adams to have more upside. He has consistently gotten better while Reiff has merely been consistent.

On the other hand I believe him to have more talent than Martin, both having a lot of upside.

We may agree to differ in opinion. As it turns out, just because someone does not agree with you does not make them a homer.

[descendency]

Originally Posted by JohnCandy

Do you feel that Massie can play LT in the NFL?

His biggest concern is he played a lot of RT with a really bad OT playing LT. He looked great at RT and that's why everyone thinks he's a RT.

Baring there being some hidden red flags (learning disability, off field, etc), I definitely think he has the physical tools to play both tackles.

He may be better of playing RT for a team that has a left handed QB.

[FordFairlane]

Originally Posted by Sloopy

LOL

You can argue that the guy got the sack all you want but the fact is that Miller was being wrapped up by two other players before that guy got there. I don't care who ESPN shows getting up from the play.

Yeah, you don't care what video evidence shows you are right no matter how wrong you are.

Still, you are correct in saying that he used bad form, I was merely pointing out that your information was false that it directly lead to the sack, which it is.

I know espn doesn't know ****! You are right they and their trick video can suck it!

However, this is not the point. The point is that you picked 3 plays out of an entire game where he showed bad form... congratulations?

I picked three plays out of an 8 minute synapse of one game against a late round draft pick.

The other 15 passing attempts that game (18 attempts IIRC give or take one or two) he was fine.

Yeah, giving up three sacks a game in College equals all pro in the NFL.

Adams may not be a complete player but I would put him on the same level talent-wise with Reiff except for the fact that I believe Adams to have more upside. He has consistently gotten better while Reiff has merely been consistent.

Yes, consistency is something you don't want from your blindside tackle.

On the other hand I believe him to have more talent than Martin, both having a lot of upside.

We may agree to differ in opinion. As it turns out, just because someone does not agree with you does not make them a homer.

I don't know where or why I would think you are a homer.

[Sloopy]

Originally Posted by FordFairlane

Yeah, you don't care what video evidence shows you are right no matter how wrong you are.
I know espn doesn't know ****! You are right they and their trick video can suck it!

If you can't see that Miller is already going down, I can't help you.

The fact that 81 got up thumping his chest and the camera zoomed in on him doesn't mean that he did anything more than hit a guy who was already going down.

The sack will be credited to whatever interior OL let two defenders come up the middle and actually sack Miller.

Regardless, you are focusing in on this argument due to what seems to be a lack of substantial evidence to prove your point. I said that you are correct in your assumption that on the particular play in question, Adams used bad form.

I picked three plays out of an 8 minute synapse of one game against a late round draft pick.

Three plays of bad form, we already knew that Adams is inconsistent at times. Reiff displays bad form on 3 or more plays in a given game, does that mean you think he is a late round pick too?

Yeah, giving up three sacks a game in College equals all pro in the NFL.

1. I never claimed he would be an all pro. I will NOW say that I think he has the capability to reach that point in his career, it will depend on his dedication to becoming more consistent in his technique.

2. We have already verified that only one of the plays in question was a a sack credited to him. You can't decide to credit sacks to him because Miller stepped up to avoid a man and got sacked by a man that Adams wasn't blocking. Sorry, it doesn't work that way

Yes, consistency is something you don't want from your blindside tackle.

I'm not saying that Reiff can't be LT. I am saying that he has been consistent over a period of time but his lack of major improvement over time leads me to believe that he present much in terms of upside.

He will be a guy that you can draft and play anywhere on the OL for years to come, I just don't think he will improve into some dominant force.

[Rosebud]

Cordy Glenn?

[BearTooth]

I've now seen Adams pretty much shut down JJ Watt, Whitney Mercilus, Quinton Coples, Courtney Upshaw, and Melvin Ingram. He struggled against Ryan Kerrigan and to a lesser degree Adrian Clayborn. He can be inconsistent, but I've seen Kalil get beat a fair amount of times too. Hell, I saw Orlando Pace and Tony Boselli get beat, too. Everyone gets beat. But Adams clearly has the talent to play left tackle in the NFL because all those guys he played well against are either in the NFL now, or will be first rounders this year.

If some NFL coach can find the key to his inconsistency, I think Adams could end up being the best left tackle from this draft.

[FordFairlane]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/.../jack-crawford

Yeah, espn shows Crawford getting two sacks. They must be part of this conspiracy too! And those jerks show him getting zero against Reiff! I bet they are behind altering that video that clearly shows Crawford getting that sack against Adams but obviously all those sacks didn't happen because Adams is clearly an elite NFL LT.

[FordFairlane]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QT2-mRCgX0&sns=em


Here's a highlight vid of Watt. The Badgers moved him around a lot so he has three sacks but one he is playing DT, one he is playing LDE, but the last highlight is him against Adams which he blows by him for a sack. So skip to 30 seconds left.

[TACKLE]

Originally Posted by FordFairlane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QT2-mRCgX0&sns=em


Here's a highlight vid of Watt. The Badgers moved him around a lot so he has three sacks but one he is playing DT, one he is playing LDE, but the last highlight is him against Adams which he blows by him for a sack. So skip to 30 seconds left.

He gave up a sack to one of the best D-Lineman in the NFL? He must suck. What about the rest of that game where he basically erased JJ when they were lined up across from each other?

What else can you teach us about O-Line play from espn stats and highlight videos?

[FordFairlane]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ndXFxPUoJM&sns=em


Illinois vs Ohio state. :45 seconds Adams gives up a sack and FF. 2:35 Adams gives up a sack. 3:10 isn't a sack but looks silly as he gives up a TFL.

I think YouTube is part of the conspiracy to make Adams look like an unathletic RT.

[FordFairlane]

Originally Posted by TACKLE

He gave up a sack to one of the best D-Lineman in the NFL? He must suck. What about the rest of that game where he basically erased JJ when they were lined up across from each other?

What else can you teach us about O-Line play from espn stats and highlight videos?

You must not have caught that. They moved Watt around ALL game. I am just disproving this "Adams shut down" these dlinemen bs.

[FordFairlane]

Originally Posted by BearTooth

I've now seen Adams pretty much shut down JJ Watt, Whitney Mercilus, Quinton Coples, Courtney Upshaw, and Melvin Ingram. He struggled against Ryan Kerrigan and to a lesser degree Adrian Clayborn. He can be inconsistent, but I've seen Kalil get beat a fair amount of times too. Hell, I saw Orlando Pace and Tony Boselli get beat, too. Everyone gets beat. But Adams clearly has the talent to play left tackle in the NFL because all those guys he played well against are either in the NFL now, or will be first rounders this year.

If some NFL coach can find the key to his inconsistency, I think Adams could end up being the best left tackle from this draft.

I want to know how you saw Mike Adams shut down Quinton Coples, Courtney Upshaw and Melvin Ingram WHEN THEY NEVER PLAYED EACH OTHER!!!!

You sir are an idiot.

[niel89]

Originally Posted by FordFairlane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ndXFxPUoJM&sns=em


Illinois vs Ohio state. :45 seconds Adams gives up a sack and FF. 2:35 Adams gives up a sack. 3:10 isn't a sack but looks silly as he gives up a TFL.

I think YouTube is part of the conspiracy to make Adams look like an unathletic RT.

I know you are on a tear against Adams but of those 3 I only he really only gets beat on the 3rd one. The 1st is a miscommunication between guard and tackle. Adams sets up for the outside guy and the guard looks inside and no one picks up the Dlineman until its too late. In the 2nd one Adams takes him wide but the QB holds the ball and steps up into the interior pressure. Not a terrible job by Adams. He does over reach on the 3rd and got tossed.

I'm not even a huge Adams fan but those examples aren't great.

[TACKLE]

Originally Posted by FordFairlane

You must not have caught that. They moved Watt around ALL game. I am just disproving this "Adams shut down" these dlinemen bs.

Nope, I didn't miss it. I have that game recorded and watched it within the last month. That's why I said "when they were lined up across from each other".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ndXFxPUoJM&sns=em


Illinois vs Ohio state. :45 seconds Adams gives up a sack and FF. 2:35 Adams gives up a sack. 3:10 isn't a sack but looks silly as he gives up a TFL.

This made me chuckle/shake my head.

The play at 0:45 is clearly the guard getting beat. Adams sets outside to #45 who is the end on the line. #45 drops off and Adams looks back inside to help out his guard but by that point it's too late because Mercilus beat the guard too quickly.

He didn't stand a chance on the play at 2:35 either, did he. On a hailmary play 5 seconds seconds after the ball is snapped, his man loops all the way around after getting washed out to jump on the pile after two other guys already had him wrapped up. He really got schooled at that play.

But go ahead, scavenge through highlight videos looking for plays where his guy jumps on top of a pile so you can call it a sack. I'm sure you can give us some valuable evaluations from that.

[FordFairlane]

He like I said we'll see in a month whereAdams goes and in five we'll see how good he is and what position he plays. You can say whatever want about the vids but facts are facts and Adams is a Turnstyle at LT.

[niel89]

If a guy is a turnstile, he wouldn't be a starter on a good team. Adams was a pretty damn good college player. I'd still take Martin over him because I'm a homer, but I would be real happy if Adams fell to the Ravens. He has the possibility of being a solid LT and a real good RT at a minimum. I'd say that Adams floor is mid 2nd at the absolute worst. I'm guessing he goes near the second half of the 1st.

[Sloopy]

Your building straw men now, no one ever claimed a conspiracy.

I said that the other two players had him wrapped up when Crawford came in and I doubted that he got a sack.

I don't believe that they keep stats of sacks given up but I would assume that if they did the sack would be credited to whatever two interior OL let those other two defenders get to Miller FIRST

I'm still giving you credit that you found a play with bad form, this should count more than the sack in your argument that Adams isn't a LT in the NFL yet you continue to fight for this ridiculous point.

I will say AGAIN that finding three plays in a highlight film doesn't make him a bad OL.

Originally Posted by FordFairlane

I want to know how you saw Mike Adams shut down Quinton Coples, Courtney Upshaw and Melvin Ingram WHEN THEY NEVER PLAYED EACH OTHER!!!!

You sir are an idiot.

They played in the senior bowl.

Originally Posted by TACKLE

But go ahead, scavenge through highlight videos looking for plays where his guy jumps on top of a pile so you can call it a sack. I'm sure you can give us some valuable evaluations from that.

Don't you know Tack? That counts as a sack that Adams gave up.

Was Adams in the vicinity of a sack? He must have given it up.

Originally Posted by FordFairlane

He like I said we'll see in a month whereAdams goes and in five we'll see how good he is and what position he plays. You can say whatever want about the vids but facts are facts and Adams is a Turnstyle at LT.

You have facts, none of which prove your point.

You are taking select few examples and generalizing them as if this is what Adams does on every down.

If you said he was inconsistent in technique at times, I would agree. However, this is something we all knew and for the most part the man had a stellar year and senior bowl

[BearTooth]

Originally Posted by FordFairlane

I want to know how you saw Mike Adams shut down Quinton Coples, Courtney Upshaw and Melvin Ingram WHEN THEY NEVER PLAYED EACH OTHER!!!!

You sir are an idiot.

Hey Einstein, there's a game they play at the end of each college season to see how college seniors will perform in pro schemes against draftable talent. It's called the Senior Bowl. You might want to check it out before throwing around "idiot" labels.

[bucfan12]

I still think Martin. He's still a good football player. He can get stronger but I turn on the tape and still think he'd be a solid LT in this league. Could be had in the 2nd half of the 1st round.

[Leon Sandcastle]

Originally Posted by FordFairlane

I want to know how you saw Mike Adams shut down Quinton Coples, Courtney Upshaw and Melvin Ingram WHEN THEY NEVER PLAYED EACH OTHER!!!!

You sir are an idiot.

And I have negative rep.

[bitonti]

I could be wrong but wasn't Adams fighting through some sort of ankle sprain this season? And got a late start with the suspension? He looked much better in Senior Bowl practice and game (for example he goes against Coples and Upshaw all game long).

[Kase1]

What about Kelechi Osemele???

[tjsunstein]

Bobby Massie isnt getting the love I thought he would.

[DeepThreat]

Originally Posted by tjsunstein

Bobby Massie isnt getting the love I thought he would.

The fact that Massie is a pure RT really hurts him here.