Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > Draft Countdown Forums > 2014 NFL Draft Forum

2014 NFL Draft Forum Discuss the 2014 NFL Draft

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-18-2012, 01:05 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,999
Reputation: 1878365
cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bixby View Post
Draft position isn't the point, the point is what you need to win games and looking around the NFL right now, left tackles aren't something you need. But from the looks of it, an impact weapon the passing game is as the team with the more effective passing game comes out on top 7/10 times.

Look at the Jaguars last year. They had Eugene Monroe and he's turned into a good offensive tackle but they had absolutely no receivers who could change the game or separate in man coverage. And then look at the New York Giants, they started David Diehl throughout their superbowl run, one of the worst offensive tackles in the game but they had Nicks, Cruz and Manningham. Sure there is a HUGE discrepancy in QB play but I'm sure Gabbert wasn't helped by playing with a bunch of scrubs at receiver. Effective pass game = wins. Elite left tackles ≠ wins.
There are many ways to skin a cat. People act like there is some formula to winning, but in reality what you need is a QB who can hang with anybody, competent coaching, and a lot of talent. You play to your strengths and make timely plays. The top 4 teams all were vastly different. You had power rushing teams with great defenses, you had a team with great receivers, QB, and pass rushers, and you had a team with one of the best QB's ever, a great OL, and a physical front 7. What I can tell you is that the Jaguars are nowhere in the conversation with any of the 4 aforementioned in terms of overall talent or in coaching.

A franchise LT can be a part of the overall talent equation. The fact that the top teams that have won the SB have not had elite tackles has more to do with random chance IMO than anything else. Those contracts are not so cost prohibitive that they keep teams from signing other premium positional contracts.
cmarq83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 01:08 PM    (permalink
Don Vito
Team Leader
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston/Ole Miss
Posts: 8,747
Reputation: 1637871
Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Don Vito is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Yeah this is pretty much how I have felt on the subject. Would I take Joe Thomas on the Patriots? Absolutely, anyone would. But you don't need to have him to win or invest that much in one player at that position. The amount of investment between guys like Long and Thomas draft position and contract is a lot to tie up at one player at that position, that money should really be reserved for quarterbacks.

Having a cohesive unit along the OL really is something that I think goes undervalued. Look at most of the elite teams through the years, and aside from injuries they have had pretty similar lines through their runs of success. The Patriots and Giants have been extremely similar along the OL. A solid but unspectacular veteran at left tackle, one elite guard, a fill in at guard this year (before that Seuburt and Neal had similar roles), two veteran-ish venters who are new replacements for former anchors (Koppen and O'Hara), and now they are both starting to try and groom new right tackles. Those two lines are always mentioned amongst the best in the league, but outside of Snee and Mankins none of those guys are players teams would kill to have. Then think about some of the higher priced lines that have invested a ton in terms of high draft picks, contracts, and going out and getting guys in free agency. They really don't offer much more than the Patriots or Giants lines for my money, not saying those are the only two like that but they just popped in my head for this situation.

Bottom line is that I think having a unit that has experience in their system, knows how to work together, and have the trust of their QB is waaaaaay more important then a few great pieces and a revolving door to their left and/or right (McKinnie, Hutchinson, and I guess Birk). A lot can be said for not throwing a guy into the fire too. Kalil is going to go from say one probably with Ponder behind him, but they really don't have much of an option because of the situation they put themselves in. That is why I liked working in Solder last year and not throwing him into the fire, he wasn't quite ready amd Light was not the player last year that Solder can become but Light had experience and Solder did not. It was the better move for the team. I'm not saying start an inferior player because he is older, but building a line of a bunch of good players with chemistry is the way to do it.
__________________


Feed Moncrief
Don Vito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 01:15 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,782
Reputation: 180000
Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
There are many ways to skin a cat. People act like there is some formula to winning, but in reality what you need is a QB who can hang with anybody, competent coaching, and a lot of talent. You play to your strengths and make timely plays. The top 4 teams all were vastly different. You had power rushing teams with great defenses, you had a team with great receivers, QB, and pass rushers, and you had a team with one of the best QB's ever, a great OL, and a physical front 7. What I can tell you is that the Jaguars are nowhere in the conversation with any of the 4 aforementioned in terms of overall talent or in coaching.

A franchise LT can be a part of the overall talent equation. The fact that the top teams that have won the SB have not had elite tackles has more to do with random chance IMO than anything else. Those contracts are not so cost prohibitive that they keep teams from signing other premium positional contracts.
The point being that not tying up a ton of money in one guy can allow you to bring in more talent.

You can still have a great OL without a great LT and you can have a great one with a great LT. The difference is that the OL without a "franchise LT" costs less.

Thus that money can be allocated to other players as well
__________________

I PITY THE FOOL WHO DON'T BELIEVE ME
BK sig is straight sex
THE Ohio State University Buckeyes
Baltimore Ravens
Cleveland Cavaliers
Cleveland Indians
Chelsea FC
Quote:
Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Miller is visual sex on the field.
Sloopy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 01:19 PM    (permalink
killxswitch
Mage Bros
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,669
Reputation: 2505046
killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

A difference of $3 million/year ($4 million difference between LT and C btw) is a pretty big deal, given there's no discernible difference in team performance. Spending lots of money on an elite LT seems like poor value to me.
__________________

i done stole dis sig
killxswitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 01:25 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,999
Reputation: 1878365
cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloopy View Post
The point being that not tying up a ton of money in one guy can allow you to bring in more talent.

You can still have a great OL without a great LT and you can have a great one with a great LT. The difference is that the OL without a "franchise LT" costs less.

Thus that money can be allocated to other players as well
This is true of any position on the field though. Every elite player gets paid in today's market regardless of position. Jerod Mayo, Jon Beason, and Patrick Willis all cashed in as MLB's. We've already talked about OG's. WR's cashed in this offseason, so did all the CB's. There is nothing unique about tackles, and so far the contracts are pretty much in line with other positions. Great offensive lines have great (and expensive) players on it. The Saints, Texans, and Ravens couldn't maintain their lines, and the Patriots will have to make some tough choices in the near future as well. Teams might get a great value on certain positions for awhile, but the market eventually catches up. This notion that having an elite OT is cost prohibitive isn't true. The reason why the Browns and Dolphins don't have great OL's or QB's isn't because Jake Long and Joe Thomas take up too much cap room.
cmarq83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 01:36 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,999
Reputation: 1878365
cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
A difference of $3 million/year ($4 million difference between LT and C btw) is a pretty big deal, given there's no discernible difference in team performance. Spending lots of money on an elite LT seems like poor value to me.
However, there is a discernable difference between the 2. All those teams that got by with mediocre tackle play eventually paid for it at some point in the playoffs. The Giants let up 6 sacks vs. the 49ers and were held out of sync for most of the game, and had Alex Smith been able to convert some 3rd downs they would have lost. This is true for almost every other team that lost, pressure off the edge is always an issue.

Last edited by cmarq83 : 04-18-2012 at 01:39 PM.
cmarq83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 01:50 PM    (permalink
Saints-Tigers
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,886
Reputation: 659348
Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

In a vacuum, left tackle is still the most important position on the offensive line(which is inarguably a top 3, along with QB and DL, need).

The thing is, I feel like at the salary you pay a top tier LT, it is almost better to spend your money elsewhere on the line.

More bang for your buck so to speak. The shrinking gap between the importance of the LT and the rest of the line hasn't fully materialized in their pay rates just yet.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPER26 View Post
fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
Saints-Tigers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:02 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,782
Reputation: 180000
Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Sloopy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
Wilfork and Love got the best of Yanda and Grubbs too. Overall offensive line play was a huge contributing factor to how you guys lost.

In terms of how those overall contracts go they're fairly similar if you include Davin Joseph's 7 year $52 million contract. There is generally a difference of $2-3 million annually between top OG's and top OT's. That amount certainly isn't going to deter teams from making other moves, and is somewhat negligible in the long run.
I was being semi sarcastic about the OL play that game. However bad they played though, we were in a position to win and nothing they did affected those two plays.


I know 3 million (in some cases closer to 4 million) doesn't seem like a lot but just as an example, that 4 mil a year could almost pay Matt Lights 2005-2010 contract.

That means that you could have a pretty good player at another spot on the OL and still have a stud guard for the same amount of money as one stud LT.

There are other examples of this (Hardwick, Koppen, Rob Simms etc.) but I don't really feel like looking up every good player who plays for about 4 mil per year average, there are a lot of them.

I know that is only one more player, but that is one more player towards your over all talent level.
__________________

I PITY THE FOOL WHO DON'T BELIEVE ME
BK sig is straight sex
THE Ohio State University Buckeyes
Baltimore Ravens
Cleveland Cavaliers
Cleveland Indians
Chelsea FC
Quote:
Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Miller is visual sex on the field.
Sloopy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:06 PM    (permalink
killxswitch
Mage Bros
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,669
Reputation: 2505046
killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
However, there is a discernable difference between the 2. All those teams that got by with mediocre tackle play eventually paid for it at some point in the playoffs. The Giants let up 6 sacks vs. the 49ers and were held out of sync for most of the game, and had Alex Smith been able to convert some 3rd downs they would have lost. This is true for almost every other team that lost, pressure off the edge is always an issue.
How many of those were because of Diehl?
__________________

i done stole dis sig
killxswitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:13 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,999
Reputation: 1878365
cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloopy View Post
I was being semi sarcastic about the OL play that game. However bad they played though, we were in a position to win and nothing they did affected those two plays.


I know 3 million (in some cases closer to 4 million) doesn't seem like a lot but just as an example, that 4 mil a year could almost pay Matt Lights 2005-2010 contract.

That means that you could have a pretty good player at another spot on the OL and still have a stud guard for the same amount of money as one stud LT.

There are other examples of this (Hardwick, Koppen, Rob Simms etc.) but I don't really feel like looking up every good player who plays for about 4 mil per year average, there are a lot of them.

I know that is only one more player, but that is one more player towards your over all talent level.
Would you rather have Joe Thomas at $12 million a year or Carl Nicks at $9.5 million? How about Jordan Gross at $10 million or Logan Mankins at $8.5 million. The positional value of an OT easily makes up the minor differences. It's not cost prohibitive to sign a guy to a contract like that, and that is why you basically never see an franchise tackle switch teams, but you see guards move all the time. Having a Jordan Gross doesn't prevent a team from going out to get a guy like Hardwick or another defensive lineman. Just like how Mankins/Lights' combined $15 million cap number didn't prevent them from going out signing Gallery, Koppen, and Connolly. Most teams don't look at it as budgeting out certain groupings. If you have the opportunity to keep good players you do it. You can always renegotiate/cut guys later.
cmarq83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:18 PM    (permalink
killxswitch
Mage Bros
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,669
Reputation: 2505046
killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

How about this, I would rather have Nick Mangold and Benn Grubbs for $14.7 million than I would Joe Thomas for $12 million. You say the uptick in production is worth the extra $3 million, I say I'd rather spend an extra $3 million and have two difference-makers instead of one.
__________________

i done stole dis sig
killxswitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:31 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,999
Reputation: 1878365
cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
How about this, I would rather have Nick Mangold and Benn Grubbs for $14.7 million than I would Joe Thomas for $12 million. You say the uptick in production is worth the extra $3 million, I say I'd rather spend an extra $3 million and have two difference-makers instead of one.
Give me Thomas and a $3 million guard any day over those 2. You can get better players on a budget at G and C than you can at tackle. Or Jordan Gross and a $5 million dollar player at either of those positions.
cmarq83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:37 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Wallaceburg, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,113
Reputation: 287181
Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bixby View Post
I wrote this on my own personal Eagles blog (which I will not mention because I read the rules regarding promotion) and it generated a few "thats interesting" and "makes sense" responses. But I figure that this could probably generate a good response as a topic of discussion regarding the draft.

When Jason Peters got injured, the Eagles' sky started to fall in the eyes of fans. So much so that some started proposing they trade up for Matt Kalil or Riley Reiff. Obviously the Eagles have since added Demetress Bell but the theory that you need a stud at LT still persists. I don’t think that this theory has much of a foundation to stand on.

Quote:
I happen to disagree and in my support so does every GM and HC in pro football.
I think I should clarify: A stud like Jason Peters or Joe Thomas does not hurt your team but they’re also not something that you absolutely need.

Quote:
It doesn't matter if there are only 3 stud LT's in pro football, Thomas, Long and Peters, that just shows how tough it is to find a great one and doesn't distract from the FACT, that LT is the second most important offensive position on a football team and everybody in pro football knows it.
Greg Cossell of NFL Films talked about something similar recently.



Interesting, isn’t it?

The New England Patriots have gotten by with Matt Light, a second round pick. The Steelers have gotten by Max Starks. The Giants have gotten by with David Diehl. The Saints have gotten by with Jermon Bushrod. The Colts started Tony Ugoh and Charlie Johnson at the LT spot from 2007-’11 and in that time they won 49 games. And yet teams with highly drafted, great tackles like Jake Long, Joe Thomas, DBrickshaw Ferguson, Duane Brown and Jason Peters (who we traded a #1 pick for) haven’t amounted to much. It would appear that we’re placing value on the wrong spot.

Quote:
Matt Light was an All Pro LT, it doesn't matter where he was drafted, David Diehl is an All Pro OG who by necessity the Giants switched to LT where he is still way above average LT, again it doesn't matter where he was drafted.
Jermon is a very adequate NFL LT, not an All Star but certainly above average. Tony Ugoh and Charlie Johnson are the reason Peyton has had 3 neck surgeries and is now playing in Denver with who knows what future. All we know is that he picked a team with a very solid LT to protect him in Denver so he doesn't share your thoughts.
Essentially, the drop-off in talent, performance and impact from the elite guys to the mid-level guys isn’t so great that it will immensely affect your team. To use a baseball idea, a left tackles’ WAR (Wins Above Replacement) is less than other positions like QB, WR, DE and CB.

Quote:
To include QB in this discussuion is ridiculous, everybody and his mother's uncle knows that QB is by far the greatest position on a football team bar none. And guess what, protecting that valuable commodity, is next in line for the offense so your case for WR and CB is again ridiculous. But I will give you this, that a DE is a top priority on a 4-3 defensive team and rates right up there with a LT.
Case in point, the Eagles are 3-2 over the past two seasons in games that Jason Peters missed but they’re 3-7 in games where Michael Vick couldn’t finish despite the fact that Peters is a better OT than Michael Vick is a QB. The Eagles are 0-2 without DeSean Jackson (not counting the week 17 Dallas game in 2010).

Quote:
Michael Vick is an exception to the rule, at least before he went to prison, I'm not quite so sure today. His escapability allowed Atlanta to go with a much weaker OL because Vick could so easily circumvent any pass rush through his escapability. However as an Eagle, he is being asked to stay in the pocket longer and he isn't as quick as he once was, so I'm sure he is very grateful to have Peters protecting him and will fear for his health this coming season.
And the best real life example I can think of is the Miami Dolphins. In 2008 the Dolphins took Jake Long over Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco in the first round. Jake Long is undoubtedly a better LT than Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco are a QB but Ryan and Flacco undoubtedly have more of an impact on the win column. If the Dolphins took Matt Ryan in round one and the best available OL in round two, how different would their current situation be?

Quote:
Nobody is claiming that a LT should be picked before a potential franchise QB, Bill Parcells broke the golden rule 'always take a potential franchise QB with your pick if one is available and your team doesn't have one.' He made that choice because as a HC he felt he could win with a lessor talented but experienced QB as he had done in so many places and it came back to kick him in the ass.
All it showed was how inexperienced he was as a GM. No other GM would have made that decision so it is no example of the correctness of your beliefs at all.

Similarly…

In 2006 the New York Jets took D’Brickshaw Ferguson and Kellen Clemens in the first two rounds. Do you think they would rather have drafted Jay Cutler in round 1 and Marcus McNeil in round 2? Ferguson is clearly better than McNeil but the talent gap between Cutler and Clemens is far greater.

Quote:
Again, your argument carries no weight, Chad Pennington was the Jets starting QB and they felt confident in his ability as long as he could stay healthy so they drafted two solid OLmen to protect him and he rewarded the Jets with a 16 game starts and 9 wins. You don't draft a potential franchise QB if you are already solid at the position, you try to improve your team which is what the Jets did.
In 2007 the Arizona Cardinals took Levi Brown in the top 5 because of need. They passed on Adrian Peterson, Patrick Willis, and Darrelle Revis for him. They could’ve had a stud at another spot and gotten a decent player like Tony Ugoh, Ryan Harris, Doug Free or Jermon Bushrod later. Bad value.

Quote:
Arizona went to the Super Bowl with Brown. Peterson, Willis and Revis have yet to get there so I again see zero merrit to your argument.
To add to the argument, pretend your the GM of the Minnesota Vikings this year. You’re sitting at pick #3 with your choice of Matt Kalil, Justin Blackmon and Morris Claiborne. Who do you take? A couple things to take into account:
  • -ProFootballFocus grades the offensive tackles of each team in the NFL. The left tackles on playoff teams were rated 6th (Duane Brown), 12th (Andrew Whitworth), 15th (Jermon Bushrod), 16th (Matt Light), 32nd (Joe Staley), 33rd (Jeff Backus), 51st (Chad Clifton), 52nd (Bryant McKinnie), 56th (Sam Baker), 60th (Jonathan Scott) and 64th (David Diehl). This would suggest that bad left tackle play doesn’t necessarily correlate with losses.

    Quote:
    These rankings are beyond absurd, most of these LT's has either made the All Pro team or at least been to the All Pro game, some numerous times. You are again associating where they were drafted with how they rank as LT's. ProFootballFocus grades just show how useless a source of facts they are.
  • -An effective and efficient passing game strongly correlates with winning. The website Cold Hard Football Facts broke it down. The team that had the higher passer rating won the game nearly 79% of the time. The team that had the higher yards per attempt mark won the game more than 71% of the time. Who helps your passing game more, Blackmon or Kalil? Looking at the playoff teams of last year would suggest that strong receiver play helps the passing game more. See: Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Mario Manningham, Wes Welker, Rob Gronkowski, Calvin Johnson, Vernon Davis, Andre Johnson, DeMaryius Thomas, Marques Colston, Jimmy Graham, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Roddy White, Julio Jones, AJ Green and Mike Wallace. It appears that having an impact pass catcher makes a big difference in the win column.

    Quote:
    It isn't receivers that win games, it is franchise QB's that account for most of those victories. Great QB's make for great receivers not visa versa You put practically any set of receivers with great franchise QB's and they are going to put up tremendous'#'s. You take away these WR's franchise QB's and you would see a huge drop off in their effectiveness.
    So again, your statement carries no weight and Minnesota will prove you wrong again by selecting Kalil over Blackmon, which just goes to show how little NFL GM's think of your theory.
  • -On the other side of the coin, if passing the ball is so important then stopping the pass must be equally important. How do you stop those impact pass catchers that I mentioned? You stop them with impact coverage players. And with each interception that your secondary gets, the oppositions chances of winning drop by 20% according to Cold Hard Football Facts. So logic would suggest that if you get a player who can take away a passing option and disrupt the passing game while also getting interceptions, he’ll have an impact on the win column. And 8 of the 12 playoff teams last year were in the top half of the league in pass defense.

It is actually called a pass rush, without one, NFL CB are practically useless on their own if a QB has all day to throw the ball and I would agree that a great pass rusher is right up there with a LT in importance on a football team and so woulds every GM. They are the key to a strong passing defense not a CB. Don't get me wrong, a great CB is nice but how many Super Bowls has Revis or Bailey been to?

Call me crazy but I’m taking the WR or CB and I’m not hesitating much.

Quote:
That is why you will never be allowed to be a NFL GM or have any say in your team's draft. So, yes, I'll call you crazy.
There is value in an elite offensive tackle, just not as much as we think. So I guess my point is two-fold:
A. The Eagles will be fine without Jason Peters.

Quote:
Well, you had better hope that Vick has the same escapability he had in Atlanta or he just might not survive the season and where will the Eagles be if Vick gets a Peyton like injury and has to miss a whole season. That's the importance you miss about a LT, they keep your QB upright and off the injury list. Without one, every passing play can end your QB's season.
H...mmm, I wonder if that is why Pittsburgh dumped Starks, just maybe he couldn't provide enough protection to keep Roethlisberger healthy.
B. If I’m running a team I’m not putting a premium on the offensive tackle spot because there is value available later. I’d rather spend high picks on a quarterback, pass catchers, pass rushers and corners simply because those spots have more of an effect on wins and losses than offensive tackles.

Quote:
Again, including a QB in the discussion which is rather useless, as everybody knows you take a franchise QB if you have a shot and you don't have one, that is why it is called the 'Golden Rule'.
Pass rusher, I have no argument with but a LT will ALWAYS be more highly regarded than a WR or a CB if they are close in value on draft day. Let's see, a few of the last top 5 WR's taken in the draft a while back is Andre Johnson who never made it to the playoffs till this last season when he was injured and did not play much and Calvin Johnson, who starred on the Lions 0-16 team till he got himself a franchise QB who could get him the ball.
Flame on draftniks.
The proof in the end is in the pudding not in what fans or draftniks think, and NFL GM's and HC's continue to give an extreme priority to LT' next to QB's and equal to pass rushers. The 3rd guy picked after 2 potential franchise QB's in this draft year, will be a LT, end of story for your theory.
You have simply forgotten the main purpose of a NFL LT, namely to keep his QB healthy and anybody who thinks that is a minor responsibility fails to understand pro football. Just because they are extremely hard to find doesn't equate with their importance.
__________________
And proud of it!!!

Last edited by Iamcanadian : 04-18-2012 at 02:42 PM.
Iamcanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:40 PM    (permalink
jojo
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: State of Golden Insincerity
Posts: 402
Reputation: 59934
jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jojo is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Say what now? LTs make more money than WRs by a long shot
I'm speaking in general terms here. There are a LOT more top tier WRs than top tier tackles, so there are a lot more WRs making more $ than tackles. Only the very top franchise tackles make the top $, as in more than WRs.

Not every team has one like I said.
jojo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:41 PM    (permalink
CDCB14
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,067
Reputation: 79506
CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CDCB14 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I never understood why LT is valued so highly. Who cares if he's the one protecting the blindside? A sack is a sack. OL is the most important unit in football, but I don't get why LT is considered the most important. Even if the guy gives up 2-3 sacks in a game, that's still only 2-3 plays out of 70 or so. Give me a guard who I know is a dominant run blocker and an average LT than the other way around. Who cares if the "blindside" is protected if the rest of the line sucks?
CDCB14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:42 PM    (permalink
AntoinCD
All-Pro
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Boxscorescouting.com
Posts: 5,744
Reputation: 1646716
AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
Give me Thomas and a $3 million guard any day over those 2. You can get better players on a budget at G and C than you can at tackle. Or Jordan Gross and a $5 million dollar player at either of those positions.
I gotta disagree here. You get two elite players on the interior to help out your OT. If needs be your offensive coordinator can help with RB or TE chips or even keeping an extra blocker in for deep drops.
__________________


BoneKrusher killing it with the sig
AntoinCD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:45 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,999
Reputation: 1878365
cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
I gotta disagree here. You get two elite players on the interior to help out your OT. If needs be your offensive coordinator can help with RB or TE chips or even keeping an extra blocker in for deep drops.
Then you take 1 passing option out of the play, and you're an extra man down on offense. I'd take Jordan Gross and Evan Mathis 10/10 times vs. Mangold and Grubbs. If you face a Demarcus Ware you have no solution with those 2 plus a run of the mill offensive tackle.
cmarq83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:46 PM    (permalink
killxswitch
Mage Bros
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,669
Reputation: 2505046
killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.killxswitch is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

It seems like there as an assumption going on here that if you don't have a high-dollar LT you must have a scrub and therefore can't protect your QB.

I don't think anyone is saying that the LT position is dog ****. It is important. Arguably the most important OL spot depending on scheme and division opponents. But it is not so important that you should hamstring your other roster moves so you can have an $80 million "franchise" LT.
__________________

i done stole dis sig
killxswitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:50 PM    (permalink
AntoinCD
All-Pro
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Boxscorescouting.com
Posts: 5,744
Reputation: 1646716
AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
Then you take 1 passing option out of the play, and you're an extra man down on offense. I'd take Jordan Gross and Evan Mathis 10/10 times vs. Mangold and Grubbs. If you face a Demarcus Ware you have no solution with those 2 plus a run of the mill offensive tackle.
Sometimes needs must though. Mangold and Grubbs not only allow you to dominate the interior and let your QB step up in the pocket, but also give you a big advantage in the run game.

You can negate Demarcus Ware by having a variety of 3 and 5 step drops as the staple of your passing attack. If, as you mentioned, you have Vince Wilfork tossing Matt Birk about like a rag doll it doesn't matter how deep the drop is as he is already in the QB's face.
__________________


BoneKrusher killing it with the sig
AntoinCD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:51 PM    (permalink
brat316
bhaarat316
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: earth
Posts: 13,780
Reputation: 1048817
brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Lots of hind sight in this article he wrote
__________________
brat316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:55 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,999
Reputation: 1878365
cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
It seems like there as an assumption going on here that if you don't have a high-dollar LT you must have a scrub and therefore can't protect your QB.

I don't think anyone is saying that the LT position is dog ****. It is important. Arguably the most important OL spot depending on scheme and division opponents. But it is not so important that you should hamstring your other roster moves so you can have an $80 million "franchise" LT.
It doesn't though. Joe Thomas's contract is the outlier so far, and there is a $2 million difference in most situations between elite OT money and elite OG money. Teams with good lines spend money to keep those lines together. There is more than one way to build a strong offensive line, I agree with that, but if you have the opportunity to get or keep a franchise LT you do it.

The cost difference is nowhere near where you guys seem to think it is, and signing these guys doesn't prevent you from making other moves just like any other contract in the NFL doesn't prevent you from making other moves. If you're smart with your salary cap and draft well enough to have low cost contributors on your team you'll be fine. The Browns are closer to the playoffs for paying JT $80 million than letting him go, and trying to start over with a bunch of other guys. It's why when Clady and Long come up for new contracts they'll get it.
cmarq83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:55 PM    (permalink
AntoinCD
All-Pro
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Boxscorescouting.com
Posts: 5,744
Reputation: 1646716
AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.AntoinCD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
It seems like there as an assumption going on here that if you don't have a high-dollar LT you must have a scrub and therefore can't protect your QB.

I don't think anyone is saying that the LT position is dog ****. It is important. Arguably the most important OL spot depending on scheme and division opponents. But it is not so important that you should hamstring your other roster moves so you can have an $80 million "franchise" LT.
That's a very good point to make. If you face a majority of 34 teams where you need to guard against massive NTs and offensive coordinators can manipulate where the rush is coming from then the value of LT goes down and the importance of having an all over, solid unit goes up.

However if I am in the NFC North and I face Julius Peppers, Jared Allen and KVB all rushing from the same side then the value of LT goes up, arguably a reason why the Vikings should go with Kalil.

Then if you look at teams like the Colts from a few years ago. The Colts never threatened from the interior but if either your LT or RT wasn't up to scratch then you would struggle
__________________


BoneKrusher killing it with the sig
AntoinCD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:59 PM    (permalink
brat316
bhaarat316
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: earth
Posts: 13,780
Reputation: 1048817
brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.brat316 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

The cost or value of OG is rising as well. With more passing comes = more problems, i.e. more blitzing, more chances for DL, all OL has to learn to pass block better, NT vs C. There is a reason why big centers are getting drafted higher to counter the atheletic NT that are getting drafted to collapse the pocket from the inside.
__________________
brat316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 03:08 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,999
Reputation: 1878365
cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
Sometimes needs must though. Mangold and Grubbs not only allow you to dominate the interior and let your QB step up in the pocket, but also give you a big advantage in the run game.

You can negate Demarcus Ware by having a variety of 3 and 5 step drops as the staple of your passing attack. If, as you mentioned, you have Vince Wilfork tossing Matt Birk about like a rag doll it doesn't matter how deep the drop is as he is already in the QB's face.
You could say the same thing about doubling somebody inside. Also there is less of a risk for a negative play than a blindside rush because the QB can see it and adjust to it.

Having a guy like Joe Thomas helps you just as much in the run game as a dominant OG perhaps even more because it allows you to run more than dives, draws, and trap plays inside. The harder blocks are the ones that the tackles do on stretch plays, screens, and runs off tackle. Those are usually the plays besides conventional passes that go for big gains. The big mauling guards are always on the market for pretty cheap, for instance Harvey Dahl or Jeremy Zuttah. Or a team could go for a guy like Zeitler, Osemele, or Glenn late in round 1-2.

It's the 2 way guards that are more costly, and once you pay them you're basically in tackle territory so it's a moot point.
cmarq83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 03:12 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Wallaceburg, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,113
Reputation: 287181
Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Fact 1: LT's almost never enter FA, they are always resigned by their own team. Top WR's and CB's come into FA all the time simply because teams understand they are much easier to find and it is therefore less important to retain them.

Fact 2: LT's continue to be drafted extremely high in the draft by every GM in the business, and it has to do with keeping the most important player on their team healthy, the QB. QB's are the highest paid players on most teams and it is the LT's job to keep them healthy. Ask any NFL QB if he wants a solid LT vs any other offensive or even defensive position on his team picked before they find a LT to protect their blindside. Peyton is a perfect example. Denver has a very solid LT which I'm sure played a huge part in Manning choosing the Broncos.

Fact 3: Indy and Pittsburgh failed to find a solid LT and the result was disastrous 2011-2012 season where both QB's got serious injuries, one missing the entire season, the other crippled to the point where they became insignificant in the playoffs.

Any argument that a LT isn't the #2 priority on an offense is ridiculous. If you have a franchise QB, then protecting his health becomes the main priority for a team and they will fill that priority later at their own risk with potential disastrous results if they wait like Indy and Pittsburgh did.
There is not the slightest indication that GM's agree with any fan who thinks a LT isn't a team's top priority after a QB is found.
__________________
And proud of it!!!

Last edited by Iamcanadian : 04-18-2012 at 03:18 PM.
Iamcanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.