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Old 04-18-2012, 03:58 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
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Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
Would you rather have Joe Thomas at $12 million a year or Carl Nicks at $9.5 million? How about Jordan Gross at $10 million or Logan Mankins at $8.5 million. The positional value of an OT easily makes up the minor differences. It's not cost prohibitive to sign a guy to a contract like that, and that is why you basically never see an franchise tackle switch teams, but you see guards move all the time. Having a Jordan Gross doesn't prevent a team from going out to get a guy like Hardwick or another defensive lineman. Just like how Mankins/Lights' combined $15 million cap number didn't prevent them from going out signing Gallery, Koppen, and Connolly. Most teams don't look at it as budgeting out certain groupings. If you have the opportunity to keep good players you do it. You can always renegotiate/cut guys later.
You have fun blocking the likes of Suh, Ngata, the Nascar package, Justin Smith, Vince Wilifork (the list goes on) with Joe Thomas on the outside and bargain players inside.

This league is evolving and the notion that a LT will solve your pass blocking problems is outdated. Pressure comes from everywhere along the OL and you can't tell me that Mangold and Grubbs wouldn't be better than signing only Thomas.

I understand your argument with the cap (the great NFL myth) the problem is that not every team spends up to the cap out of pure choice (see TB, Carolina etc). So yes, the money does matter

Furthermore, it isn't just financial resources that these guys cost. A lot of these LTs involve top 5-10 picks.

In the first scenario that I laid out, without regards to cost.

Which line is better:

Kalil - Burger - Sullivan - Johnson - Loadholt

or

Johnson - DeCastro - Sullivan - Silatolu - Loadholt

The 2nd one looks better to me and trading back probably nabs you another 2nd round pick.

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Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
Then you take 1 passing option out of the play, and you're an extra man down on offense. I'd take Jordan Gross and Evan Mathis 10/10 times vs. Mangold and Grubbs. If you face a Demarcus Ware you have no solution with those 2 plus a run of the mill offensive tackle.
The same can be said if you have guys pushing the pocket all day long.

All your arguments about why the LT is so important apply to EVERY SPOT on the OL.

The only difference may be that I give a RB a better shot at blocking the 250-270 DE/OLB than I do blocking the 300+ lb DT.

Add in the fact that I can draft interior guys later in the draft and I think the value is clear.

I know you say it's a "coincidence" that the last few SB winners haven't had elite LT but it proves that you don't need one.

Yet you continue to spew BS about how your ****** 3 ways from sunday if you don't have one

The fact is I can win without paying one big money and I can pay a guard less and spend less precious resources on him
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Miller is visual sex on the field.

Last edited by Sloopy : 04-18-2012 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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but you need to find someone to trade back with. If everyone has that same phillosphy.

Say you can't trade back, would you skip on Kalil even though the value is there? You philosphy dictates you avoid him and take a RB or WR
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Fact 1: LT's almost never enter FA, they are always resigned by their own team. Top WR's and CB's come into FA all the time simply because teams understand they are much easier to find and it is therefore less important to retain them.

Fact 2: LT's continue to be drafted extremely high in the draft by every GM in the business, and it has to do with keeping the most important player on their team healthy, the QB. QB's are the highest paid players on most teams and it is the LT's job to keep them healthy. Ask any NFL QB if he wants a solid LT vs any other offensive or even defensive position on his team picked before they find a LT to protect their blindside. Peyton is a perfect example. Denver has a very solid LT which I'm sure played a huge part in Manning choosing the Broncos.

Fact 3: Indy and Pittsburgh failed to find a solid LT and the result was disastrous 2011-2012 season where both QB's got serious injuries, one missing the entire season, the other crippled to the point where they became insignificant in the playoffs.

Any argument that a LT isn't the #2 priority on an offense is ridiculous. If you have a franchise QB, then protecting his health becomes the main priority for a team and they will fill that priority later at their own risk with potential disastrous results if they wait like Indy and Pittsburgh did.
There is not the slightest indication that GM's agree with any fan who thinks a LT isn't a team's top priority after a QB is found.
The Giants have won 2 super bowls in 5 years with David Diehl starting at left tackle.

Oline is about cohesion along with talent, but the talent needs to be spread out on an entire O-line. Having a Joe Thomas is GREAT and you don't have to worry about a premier position (as LT is probably the most important and most difficult OL spot to fill), but it's absolutely not a necessity to have a good offense
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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but you need to find someone to trade back with. If everyone has that same phillosphy.

Say you can't trade back, would you skip on Kalil even though the value is there? You philosphy dictates you avoid him and take a RB or WR
I doubt they have a problem trading back if they want to with the number of teams who want Tannehill.

EDIT: I take Kalil, the point is to get the most bang for your buck and provide good players for the OL.

I would seriously consider DeCastro as I think he is the best OL in this draft and I when his rookie contract was up I wouldn't have to pay him as much as I would Kalil.

For the sake of not starting a completely different debate, I go Kalil in this unlikely situation of not being able to trade down.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.

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Old 04-18-2012, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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You have fun blocking the likes of Suh, Ngata, the Nascar package, Justin Smith, Vince Wilifork (the list goes on) with Joe Thomas on the outside and bargain players inside.

This league is evolving and the notion that a LT will solve your pass blocking problems is outdated. Pressure comes from everywhere along the OL and you can't tell me that Mangold and Grubbs wouldn't be better than signing only Thomas.

I understand your argument with the cap (the great NFL myth) the problem is that not every team spends up to the cap out of pure choice (see TB, Carolina etc). So yes, the money does matter

Furthermore, it isn't just financial resources that these guys cost. A lot of these LTs involve top 5-10 picks.

In the first scenario that I laid out, without regards to cost.

Which line is better:

Kalil - Burger - Sullivan - Johnson - Loadholt

or

Johnson - DeCastro - Sullivan - Silatolu - Loadholt

The 2nd one looks better to me and trading back probably nabs you another 2nd round pick.
This is such a circular argument. Have fun blocking JPP with Jahri Evans and bargain guys on the outside. Nobody since this thread has started said that having an elite OT solves your offensive line woes, but the cost difference between spending on a top tackle and a top guard is minimal. That has been illustrated, and it's really hard to dispute. We're talking 1.5-2.5 million per year, so it's not a logical argument to make to say that signing Joe Thomas burdens teams, but signing Carl Nicks does not. As far as the example that you laid out Jordan Gross and Evan Mathis>Nick Mangold and Ben Grubbs, or Joe Thomas and Brian Waters> Nick Mangold and Ben Grubbs.

OT is still a better pick for the Vikings than that trade back because of the relative ease to obtain an offensive G. DeCastro is a great prospect, but Kalil does more to help the Vikings longterm than DeCastro and Silatolu. Guards are always available, but franchise LT's never are. There are plenty of options to get a Silatolu type guy down the line, but you won't be able to find a Kalil.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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This is such a circular argument. Have fun blocking JPP with Jahri Evans and bargain guys on the outside.
Exactly, the point is that no matter where you have a stud guy, the defense will find a way around him (hence the need for a solid overall OL).

The fact is that 2-4 million dollars is still 2-4 million dollars.

You can look at it any way you want but my option still presents the same strengths and flaws that yours does but mine costs less and requires less resources.
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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The same can be said if you have guys pushing the pocket all day long.

All your arguments about why the LT is so important apply to EVERY SPOT on the OL.

The only difference may be that I give a RB a better shot at blocking the 250-270 DE/OLB than I do blocking the 300+ lb DT.

Add in the fact that I can draft interior guys later in the draft and I think the value is clear.

I know you say it's a "coincidence" that the last few SB winners haven't had elite LT but it proves that you don't need one.

Yet you continue to spew BS about how your ****** 3 ways from sunday if you don't have one

The fact is I can win without paying one big money and I can pay a guard less and spend less precious resources on him
All the SB winners have had great coaching, hall of fame QB's, and boatloads of cheap talent. If only everyone could be so lucky. For the average GM building a team this isn't really model isn't going to work for them without a lot of luck. So what do they do? If they don't see anybody who fits the franchise QB type then they look towards getting the top talents available to them. Since LT is a premium position, if a top player is available to them at T they should go for it.

Yes having 5 good lineman is important, but having a franchise tackle doesn't inhibit that, and you're going to need to keep drafting well to keep a good offensive line together no matter what positions your quality is at. No matter how hard you argue a top OG does not provide you the same value as a top OT. Tackle is a much harder position to play, you have more situations where you are on an island, you have more difficult blocks in the rushing game, and requires you to play in space a lot more. There are also fewer quality tackles in the NFL than there are guards. The NFL is a passing league, and a major way to combat that is with a good pass rush, most of which comes from the outside. That is why good OT's help.

I think we'll see a great example this season when Tampa Bay struggles despite having Joseph, Nicks, and Zuttah. They have spent a lot of money on the middle of their offensive line, but unfortunately Penn and Trueblood suck and unlike the other SB contenders with mediocre tackles their QB can't compensate.

You can say your model works just as well, but besides the 2009 Saints there isn't a whole lot you have to back it up. In the NFL the vast majority of personnel people will disagree with you, and tackles will continue to stay with their teams and get picked top 10.
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
All the SB winners have had great coaching, hall of fame QB's, and boatloads of cheap talent. If only everyone could be so lucky. For the average GM building a team this isn't really model isn't going to work for them without a lot of luck. So what do they do? If they don't see anybody who fits the franchise QB type then they look towards getting the top talents available to them. Since LT is a premium position, if a top player is available to them at T they should go for it.
If I'm going BPA (especially in regards to OL) it is DeCastro.

Quote:
Yes having 5 good lineman is important, but having a franchise tackle doesn't inhibit that, and you're going to need to keep drafting well to keep a good offensive line together no matter what positions your quality is at.
I think we can agree here. LT does not inhibit your ability to put together a solid OL.

Quote:
No matter how hard you argue a top OG does not provide you the same value as a top OT.
How so, both can protect the QB albeit in different ways, same goes for the run game, an elite OL at any position provides equal value.

Quote:
Tackle is a much harder position to play, you have more situations where you are on an island, you have more difficult blocks in the rushing game, and requires you to play in space a lot more.
This, like the blindside argument, is becoming outdated. More and more teams are using zone blocking schemes which require agile yet powerful interior OL.

In fact, I would argue that regardless of system, center is the hardest spot to play on the OL. The pivot is no joke and also is responsible for protection calls etc.

Quote:
There are also fewer quality tackles in the NFL than there are guards.
This is slightly true, maybe 5 guys at the LT position I would call franchise players as opposed to (as you put it) 6-8 top guards, and top centers are fewer and far between than even LTs.

Quote:
The NFL is a passing league, and a major way to combat that is with a good pass rush, most of which comes from the outside. That is why good OT's help.
Again, using stone-age logic. Interior pass rush is more prevalent in todays NFL than it was a few years ago (and actually has always been the most effective way of disrupting the passing game, it just wasn't always so easy to accomplish)

Quote:
I think we'll see a great example this season when Tampa Bay struggles despite having Joseph, Nicks, and Zuttah. They have spent a lot of money on the middle of their offensive line, but unfortunately Penn and Trueblood suck and unlike the other SB contenders with mediocre tackles their QB can't compensate.
Would this not be more of an argument for having a franchise signal caller than LT? Not really sure how this proves your point.

Quote:
You can say your model works just as well, but besides the 2009 Saints there isn't a whole lot you have to back it up.
Your right, the last however many SB winners don't count.

Quote:
In the NFL the vast majority of personnel people will disagree with you
Oh, NFL insider now are we? No what the GMs are thinking?

Just because it has been one way for the last 10 years means it's obviously right?

I guess we should throw out the forward pass and the 3-4 defense

Quote:
and tackles will continue to stay with their teams and get picked top 10.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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**** it.......
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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Old 04-18-2012, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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You guys seem to be neglecting the effects of an OL on the Running game. You don't need a great LT, but having one tackle who's a great run blocker with a strong interior OL is what lets the best running teams do so. The Texans, Saints, 9ers and Ravens where all excellent running teams because of their OLs. The Giants went from a great running team to a terrible one because our OL got old.

So while a QB can hide an OL's ability to pass block, there's no one that'll make a terrible OL like the bears open holes in the running game.

Now a days a dominant OL takes 2 studs, 2 good starters, one solid guy and for them to play together for a long enough to develop chemistry. The positions don't matter but having OTs that you don't need to scheme around is a major boon which is why I'd prefer those studs be one tackle and one guard or center with one of the guards being the Jag.
You can get a top RT for WAY less than a top LT though
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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You can get a top RT for WAY less than a top LT though
True, but RT is also a very weak position league wide, there's more exceptional LTs than RTs right now so there's less guys to drive the price of RTs up. Similar to how Centers are underpaid in relation to Left Tackles, there's only a couple of guys that are elite enough to set a new high bar for contracts at the position, so the cost doesn't escalate as quickly. Also teams tend to shift their more talented young tackles to the left side, so guys like Oher, who could've ended up a great and high earning RTs that raised the bar for other RTs, instead ends up getting shuffled over to the left side once the team opened the position up for him.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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True, but RT is also a very weak position league wide, there's more exceptional LTs than RTs right now so there's less guys to drive the price of RTs up. Similar to how Centers are underpaid in relation to Left Tackles, there's only a couple of guys that are elite enough to set a new high bar for contracts at the position, so the cost doesn't escalate as quickly. Also teams tend to shift their more talented young tackles to the left side, so guys like Oher, who could've ended up a great and high earning RTs that raised the bar for other RTs, instead ends up getting shuffled over to the left side once the team opened the position up for him.
Oher is still on the right side :P He may switch this coming season though, depends.

The fact that the price of RTs is low is a reason why I would be willing to take one though.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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This, like the blindside argument, is becoming outdated. More and more teams are using zone blocking schemes which require agile yet powerful interior OL.
Interior lineman are no more valuable in a zone blocking scheme than tackles. In fact in most situations it's the G who gets to go to the 2nd level and attack the linebacker because the way that the running backs are flowing generally draws the double teamed player to the outside. Interior guys are important, but generally teams that run zone blocking schemes invest higher on tackles than they do elsewhere. Just look at zone blocking teams like the Panthers, Eagles, Texans, Seahawks, KC, and Denver. Your Baltimore Ravens are pretty much the exception.

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In fact, I would argue that regardless of system, center is the hardest spot to play on the OL. The pivot is no joke and also is responsible for protection calls etc.
You won't get an argument much from me here. It's difficult to be a dominant center just because of the nature of trying to get leverage while snapping the football. That is why there are so few dominant ones. However, there are a plethora of average ones in the NFL.

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Again, using stone-age logic. Interior pass rush is more prevalent in todays NFL than it was a few years ago (and actually has always been the most effective way of disrupting the passing game, it just wasn't always so easy to accomplish)
Except nothing you said here is even a little bit true. Interior pass rush has trended downward for the past 15 as teams have gone smaller on the outside and larger in the middle. If you need any evidence just go to NFL.com and look at the sacks from the past 15 years. Most significant pressure comes from the outside in today's NFL. Do bigger guys collapse the pocket? Sure, but even the best like Wilfork and Ngata don't make nearly as much noise as the DE's and OLB's do.


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Would this not be more of an argument for having a franchise signal caller than LT? Not really sure how this proves your point.
You can mask an average tackles with an elite QB. You can't protect average QB's with elite OG's. However, I think you can protect average QB's with elite OT's and average guards.



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Your right, the last however many SB winners don't count.
Again correlation does not imply causation. Most Super Bowl winners from the past 10 years didn't have great interior play either. We can avoid the obvious point that each team that has won has had a HOF QB, great coaching, and rosters littered with talent, and instead making claims that elite tackles are overrated in today's game because there haven't been guys like Joe Thomas and Jake Long on any of those teams.

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Oh, NFL insider now are we? No what the GMs are thinking?

Just because it has been one way for the last 10 years means it's obviously right?

I guess we should throw out the forward pass and the 3-4 defense
I guess you're right. I don't know what is going on inside the minds of NFL GM's. However, my opinion is backed up by most personnel decisions over the past 10 years.

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Old 04-18-2012, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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Semi-related, but Matt Light just retired.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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Then you take 1 passing option out of the play, and you're an extra man down on offense. I'd take Jordan Gross and Evan Mathis 10/10 times vs. Mangold and Grubbs. If you face a Demarcus Ware you have no solution with those 2 plus a run of the mill offensive tackle.

Bull! The Saints have been attempting the most passes every year, and are almost always near the bottom in sacks with run of the mill guys playing tackle. A clean pocket up the middle makes it easier to push elite rushers out wide, and have space for your QB to step into. I guess if your QB has happy feet and wants to keep dropping back without stepping up, then the value of a LT goes up exponentially.

I'd much much much much rather Mangold+Grubbs over Gross and Mathis
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Bull! The Saints have been attempting the most passes every year, and are almost always near the bottom in sacks with run of the mill guys playing tackle. A clean pocket up the middle makes it easier to push elite rushers out wide, and have space for your QB to step into. I guess if your QB has happy feet and wants to keep dropping back without stepping up, then the value of a LT goes up exponentially.

I'd much much much much rather Mangold+Grubbs over Gross and Mathis
Again having the 2 best guards on your team isn't a model that most teams can go with. Bushrod while he isn't great is still a $5 million a year player and was a pro bowler in 2012. De La Puente and Strief both weren't huge liabilities either. The Saints have a lot of resources tied up in their offensive line so it should damn well be a good unit.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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I definitely agree with the group of people who say LT is overvalued. Just as a Cowboys fan with our current OL, we probably have a top 5 tackle tandem if Tyron Smith continues to improve but our interior OL is trash and Romo is always running for his life and we cant get meaningful yards in the running game to save our lives.

LT is definitely overrated. Like mentioned above, if you have a QB who is worth a damn and can step up in the pocket (assuming you have interior OL worth anything) then LT really shouldn't be that big of a deal. If the team is facing a dynamic edge rusher then just chip him with a back or tight end and go on about your offensive gameplan. If the LT gives up a sack or two so be it.

Also said before was that the Giants have won 2 of the last 5 super bowls with david diehl at LT. Half of the members on this site could probably get a sack on David Diehl on a good day. Yet the Giants have still hosted 2 of the last 5 lombardi trophies..

OL is very important, but as a unit. Not just a LT. If you gave a team Orlando Pace in his prime and the rest of the line was below average starters or you gave a team an average LT and the rest of the line was above average starters with maybe a pro-bowl guard or something, the second unit would easily be more successful, and win you more games and it wouldn't be close.

How many times to team run off left tackle in a game? 8, maybe? As for the passing game, step up in the pocket and chip with a back or tight end if the pas rusher is great.

Not to be a homer but Tyron Smith has best LT in the league potential if he continues to develop and everyone works out (I know, two big if's). He's a freak. That said, if you told me you'd give me a pro bowl center and two above average guards in their primes i'd probably take that deal and run with it. If you were to balance the contracts up, the deal would probably come out to be the same as well. (top 5 LT vs. pro bowl center, 2 solid guards)

LT is definitely overrated.

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Old 04-18-2012, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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Interior lineman are no more valuable in a zone blocking scheme than tackles. In fact in most situations it's the G who gets to go to the 2nd level and attack the linebacker because the way that the running backs are flowing generally draws the double teamed player to the outside. Interior guys are important, but generally teams that run zone blocking schemes invest higher on tackles than they do elsewhere. Just look at zone blocking teams like the Panthers, Eagles, Texans, Seahawks, KC, and Denver. Your Baltimore Ravens are pretty much the exception.
I never said that they were. I said that they require more skilled players along the interior to respond to your comment that, "Tackle is a much harder position to play, you have more situations where you are on an island, you have more difficult blocks in the rushing game, and requires you to play in space a lot more."

All of the Eagles, Panthers Texans and Seahawks have also spent resources on interior OL. The point being that OL are fairly equal in this system.


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Except nothing you said here is even a little bit true. Interior pass rush has trended downward for the past 15 as teams have gone smaller on the outside and larger in the middle. If you need any evidence just go to NFL.com and look at the sacks from the past 15 years. Most significant pressure comes from the outside in today's NFL. Do bigger guys collapse the pocket? Sure, but even the best like Wilfork and Ngata don't make nearly as much noise as the DE's and OLB's do.
Other than the fact that it is:

This doesn't change the fact that pressure up the middle is the most effective way to disrupt the passing attack and it always has been.

Guys like Ngata and Wilifork make it possible for the outside pressure to be more successful by demanding double teams and the like to avoid such pressure up the middle.

I don't think I should have to explain why stats aren't the end all be all of an argument, nor is the NFL a stat driven league.

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You can mask an average tackles with an elite QB. You can't protect average QB's with elite OG's. However, I think you can protect average QB's with elite OT's and average guards.
You act like this is some kind of formula. Average tackle + Elite QB = win (true)

Average QB + Elite Guard = fail

Average QB + Elite Tackle = win (except that no elite tackle/average QB combos have gone anywhere recently)


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Again correlation does not imply causation. Most Super Bowl winners from the past 10 years didn't have great interior play either. We can avoid the obvious point that each team that has won has had a HOF QB, great coaching, and rosters littered with talent, and instead making claims that elite tackles are overrated in today's game because there haven't been guys like Joe Thomas and Jake Long on any of those teams.
Your building straw men. Did I ever say that having a LT would be preventative in winning a SB? No. I am pointing out that they aren't a necessary piece, like a franchise QB, good defense, etc. Yet they get paid like they are.

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I guess you're right. I don't know what is going on inside the minds of NFL GM's. However, my opinion is backed up by most personnel decisions over the past 10 years.
Yes because last year, teams with OT needs didn't pass on Tyron Smith, Gabe Carimi, Nate Soldier or Anthony Castonzo for the likes of Marcell Dareus, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones and Nick Fairly

Or the year before Teams didn't pass on Trent Williams, Russel Okung and Anthony Davis for the likes of Suh, Gerald McCoy and Eric Berry

Or in 2009 how Jason Smith worked out so well for the Rams when they took him over other needs

The list goes on. Your opinion can both be supported and knocked with a number of different examples the same as mine can.

My point still remains that while both our options are fairly equal in terms of efficacy and examples both supporting and knocking them, mine still remains cheaper and requires less resources to acquire.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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I definitely agree with the group of people who say LT is overvalued. Just as a Cowboys fan with our current OL, we probably have a top 5 tackle tandem if Tyron Smith continues to improve but our interior OL is trash and Romo is always running for his life and we cant get meaningful yards in the running game to save our lives.

LT is definitely overrated. Like mentioned above, if you have a QB who is worth a damn and can step up in the pocket (assuming you have interior OL worth anything) then LT really shouldn't be that big of a deal. If the team is facing a dynamic edge rusher then just chip him with a back or tight end and go on about your offensive gameplan. If the LT gives up a sack or two so be it.

Also said before was that the Giants have won 2 of the last 5 super bowls with david diehl at LT. Half of the members on this site could probably get a sack on David Diehl on a good day. Yet the Giants have still hosted 2 of the last 5 lombardi trophies..

OL is very important, but as a unit. Not just a LT. If you gave a team Orlando Pace in his prime and the rest of the line was below average starters or you gave a team an average LT and the rest of the line was above average starters with maybe a pro-bowl guard or something, the second unit would easily be more successful, and win you more games and it wouldn't be close.

How many times to team run off left tackle in a game? 8, maybe? As for the passing game, step up in the pocket and chip with a back or tight end if the pas rusher is great.

Not to be a homer but Tyron Smith has best LT in the league potential if he continues to develop and everyone works out (I know, two big if's). He's a freak. That said, if you told me you'd give me a pro bowl center and two above average guards in their primes i'd probably take that deal and run with it. If you were to balance the contracts up, the deal would probably come out to be the same as well. (top 5 LT vs. pro bowl center, 2 solid guards)

LT is definitely overrated.
it aint overrated if ur playing the giants
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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it aint overrated if ur playing the giants
If your playing the Giants you need interior help just as much as OT help.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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it aint overrated if ur playing the giants
There are plenty of ways to look at that though. Sure JPP can go off, but if you have a good interior OL then just keep pounding the rock up the middle, and when you pass give the LT help with a TE.

You can't really mask having a pathetic interior OL because they'll just get blown up into the QB and RB. Don't give me that "quick passing attack" garbage. That is fine in theory but it only works so much and eventually isn't that effective. People can point to teams like the Pats... but Brady had two pro-bowl guards and an above average center this year. How is Drew Brees' interior OL?

You can mask having an average LT. Hell, you can win super bowls with an average LT. Again, see the Giants.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Again having the 2 best guards on your team isn't a model that most teams can go with. Bushrod while he isn't great is still a $5 million a year player and was a pro bowler in 2012. De La Puente and Strief both weren't huge liabilities either. The Saints have a lot of resources tied up in their offensive line so it should damn well be a good unit.

Think about it that way. Bushrod is a 5 mill per year player, and Evans is an 8 million dollar per year player. Evans impact DWARFS Bushrod's, and he's so good up the middle that it allows the Saints to avoid Bushrod's side to the point that he really never hurts us.

Find all the tackles making 8 million per year. I'd take Evans for 8 million over them EASY.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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to be fair, while he's no all-pro, david diehl is ******* awesome
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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There are plenty of ways to look at that though. Sure JPP can go off, but if you have a good interior OL then just keep pounding the rock up the middle, and when you pass give the LT help with a TE.

You can't really mask having a pathetic interior OL because they'll just get blown up into the QB and RB. Don't give me that "quick passing attack" garbage. That is fine in theory but it only works so much and eventually isn't that effective. People can point to teams like the Pats... but Brady had two pro-bowl guards and an above average center this year. How is Drew Brees' interior OL?

You can mask having an average LT. Hell, you can win super bowls with an average LT. Again, see the Giants.
if im facing the giants i'd rather have elite lt to handle jpp one on one, if i have to double him then you get tuck on an mismatch inside, having a elite left tackle at least gives you flexibility on how to block the other guys.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:48 AM    (permalink
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If you're a GM, and your team is in a position to take an elite LT, but you take a WR instead, you won't be GM for that team much longer.
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