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Old 04-23-2012, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:37 PM    (permalink
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FTR, I think it is gonna go Luck to the Colts, Griffin to the Skins, Khalil to the Vikes, Richardson to the Browns, Claiborne to the Buccaneers, and Blackmon to the Rams. All of these things are smokescreens to try to get people to bite on a trade.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by papageorgio View Post
how well did the vikings do with Mcknnie and Hutchinson. Only with Favre did they ever do good.

Lt is the most overated postion in the NFL.

DE,Corner,WR and safety are more important.

Buddy Nix says you can find good LT's in the later rounds and he ahs already done that with Chris hairston.

Taking Kalil at 3 is a mistake when you could have Blackmon or Claiborne
The Vikings won the division with Tavaris Jackson before Favre got there.

You can find good players at any position in the later rounds, there is history to back that up too.

And did you watch any Viking games last year? Ponder is going to get killed with Charlie Johnson at LT. And if Charlie Johnson indeed plays LT who is our LG?

Kalil will be the pick.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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http://walterfootball.com/mattkalilvikings.php
Some good points made here.
While you don't need an elite LT to win, you do need competent linemen. The worst thing that can happen for the Vikes is to let Ponder get killed by Julius Peppers, Clay Matthews, Kyle Vanden Bosch and others. If Ponder busts, that sets the franchise back at least 5 years, and If Peterson can't make it back, Ponder will have pretty much nothing to work with. Preventing sacks is important for making manageable 3rd downs and not getting knocked out of field goal range. You can't win if you can't score, and and you can't score if you keep punting to the other team. The NFL is an offensive league.
Also, you don't really need elite corners to win either. You do need good corners though. Charles Woodson was the only corner in the past 20 years to go top 3 and Claiborne is nowhere near the prospect Woodson was. Even if Claiborne becomes this elite guy who shuts down half of the field, the other guys will get torched when teams throw away from him. Drafting cornerbacks has almost the highest bust rate out of all the positions, just ask the Patriots. Claiborne might be one of the most bust-proof cornerbacks in a while, but history shows us that good cornerbacks can be found anywhere, even as UDFA.
So the point is, the Vikings can't let Ponder get killed by good NFC North pass rushers, and I would rather have 3 good cornerbacks than 1 elite one and two crappy ones.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:06 AM    (permalink
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The Claiborne smokescreen makes the most sense in terms of getting teams to trade up to #3 (after Kalil anyway).

- Taking Claiborne at #3 forces the Browns to go Richardson at #4. Heckert has flat out said he doesn't want to trade too far out and any trade at that point is too far out because he drops down a tier in talent.

- Tampa doesn't need a wideout so the odds are they'd just take Kalil at #5 without wanting to trade because any trade means they miss out on the draft's elite talent the same way the Browns would.

Thus, in that scenario, if you're sitting outside of #5 want to get either Kalil, Claiborne or Richardson, the Vikings are the team you'd need to trade with because once Claiborne goes, the next 2 picks are likely set. It's just as effective as saying Kalil is the pick except that it adds more confusion.

That said, I don't think that Minnesota is stupid enough to pass Kalil. The two biggest investments on the team (Peterson and Ponder) both got hurt last year but would both benefit immensely from a LT who isn't a turnstile. If they end up turning that down to take a corner for a Cover 2 scheme... yikes.

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Old 04-24-2012, 01:16 AM    (permalink
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I do think that Kallil has been overrated throughout this process. He's not clearly better than Tyron Smith, and his grade is a lot closer to Eugene Monroe than it is to Joe Thomas.

I do also agree that LT is kind of an overrated position in the modern NFL, blindside hits aren't actually that conducive to QB injury (thought they are conducive to turnovers, which are bad). You don't need an elite LT to win in this league. You do, however, need an LT who is good enough and neither the Vikings nor the Bills (for example) have an LT on the roster who is adequate by NFL standards, so I have a hard time seeing Kalil fall out of the top 10.

But Kalil is not a "once a decade LT" prospect. He just seems that way in relation to the rest of the OT class, which is neither deep nor strong.

Last edited by PossibleCabbage : 04-24-2012 at 09:56 AM. Reason: Tyron Smith ≠ Tyson Jackson
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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fyi, vikes didn't run as much cover 2 last year. I think Claiborne is a potential shutdown guy and if the vikes FO does too then he has to be the pick.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:16 AM    (permalink
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But Kalil is not a "once a decade LT" prospect. He just seems that way in relation to the rest of the OT class, which is neither deep nor strong.
Yeah, I have him graded about the same as Nate Solder from 2011.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, I have him graded about the same as Nate Solder from 2011.
I saw most of Kalil's games over the last two years and he is clearly more talented coming out than Solder was. What gets me is someone floats a rumor, and that's fine, but what happens is everyone jumps on board and starts finding fault with the player.

For me Kalil might not be a Joe Thomas or a Walter Jones but he's right up there with the top tackles over the last decade.

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Old 04-24-2012, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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For me Kalil might not be a Joe Thomas or a Walter Jones but he's right up there with the top tackles over the last decade.
I just don't see Kalil as elite. I don't think he's a 10-time pro bowler. I don't see him as a 1st tier LT prospect like Jake Long. Same as you. But that's not to say that he's not going to be a very solid starter for some team for the next 5-8 years.

As far as the rumor mixing me up, I haven't been incredibly high on Kalil, ever. As a matter of fact, I think Cordy Glenn has a much higher upside.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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Schefter and Glazer have both said that the Vikings are choosing between Claiborne and Blackmon. The Bucs have Donald Penn, Phins have long and the Jags have Monroe at left tackle. If the Rams believe in Saffold and Brown like a bunch of rams fans than he could fall to the seahawks or Bills.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Schefter and Glazer have both said that the Vikings are choosing between Claiborne and Blackmon. The Bucs have Donald Penn, Phins have long and the Jags have Monroe at left tackle. If the Rams believe in Saffold and Brown like a bunch of rams fans than he could fall to the seahawks or Bills.
I wouldnt be shocked to see the Jags move Monroe to the RT spot and draft Kalil
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Mckinnie was a good tackle in his prime. Im saying a stud LT is meaningless when you have more glaring needs.

The browns are a laughing stock with Thomas. The dolhins are a joke with Jake Long.

Having an elite LT doesnt win you games.

Take the Wr or CB
It goes both ways. An elite CB or WR doesn't necessarily win you games either, it's a team game. Drafting Kalil fixes LT and LG since Charlie Johnson can kick inside. Draft the LT, fix your entire left side of the line, and keep Ponder alive.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Schefter and Glazer have both said that the Vikings are choosing between Claiborne and Blackmon. The Bucs have Donald Penn, Phins have long and the Jags have Monroe at left tackle. If the Rams believe in Saffold and Brown like a bunch of rams fans than he could fall to the seahawks or Bills.
Do you mean Jason Smith? If so, he just took a huge pay cut and has a very prohibitive roster bonus going into 2013. Unless he becomes an All-Pro or something then I believe he will be cut, so if we passed on Kalil I'd lose my mind.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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I wouldnt be shocked to see the Jags move Monroe to the RT spot and draft Kalil
I read somewhere maybe ESPN that he was top 10 tackle last year. I doubt they would do that.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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This is Minny blowing smoke up everyone's butts in the hope that someone comes along and gives them a lopsided trade.

If they stay in the 3 slot and pass on Kalil, I'm going to laugh so hard at their ineptitude.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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I read somewhere maybe ESPN that he was top 10 tackle last year. I doubt they would do that.
never seen him play, but the opinions of fans make be believe that he is a much better run blocker than he is a pass blocker.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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This is Minny blowing smoke up everyone's butts in the hope that someone comes along and gives them a lopsided trade.

If they stay in the 3 slot and pass on Kalil, I'm going to laugh so hard at their ineptitude.
Likewise. Kalil just makes way too much sense to not happen...
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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I think Minnesota believes that no team between them and Buffalo want to draft Kalil.

They're trying to engineer a trade with Tampa(Claiborne) or St Louis(Blackmon) because they can still get Kalil a bit later.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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never seen him play, but the opinions of fans make be believe that he is a much better run blocker than he is a pass blocker.
According to PFF, he's decent in pass blocking and well above-average in the run game.

So...that would probably make him a top 5 right tackle assuming he didn't fall apart going to the other side, but he's definitely pretty good where he is already. They really need a QB (not happening in this draft), a #1 wideout (Floyd?), and a #1 corner (too early for Gilmore or Kirkpatrick), but I could see Kalil being a BPA pick for JAX if he falls.

Seems reasonable. Of course, a trade down seems a lot better for them.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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The thing about Kalil that probably goes unnoticed is he has a serious mean streak. Pretty much cold cocked a Husky LB at the start of their game this year just to let them know he was there.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Minny's GM Spielman had better be careful with how he performs this draft. I remember a few years ago Ziggy Wulf fired his GM and/or draft personnel guys because of making garbage picks like Ryan Cook and Tarvaris Jackson.

I'm not saying that Spielman will be that awful but I wager the Ziggster is expecting some bonzo results given where the Vikes are picking this year.

Just sayin'...
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Kalil has to be the pick to not only protect Ponder but to compensate for what division rivals are intending to do. You know the Packers are looking to add a pass rush specialist opposite of Clay and the Lions DLine is getting a year better. Julius Peppers alone would be reason enough for me to upgrade at LT. i think anyone else there and someones job is under a microscope for the forseeable future.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:39 PM    (permalink
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If for some strange reason he did make it out of the top 6, Jacksonville would have offers all over the place and about a 1% chance they stay and pick. Tannehill will likely be there, as well as Kalil.


I wonder how overrated everyone would say LT is when Detroit never ends up drafting one and gets Stafford destroyed. Play-makers are important and we always hear about how Drew Brees did it without any tackles but lose sight of the fact that Ponder is in his 2nd year and doesn't have the pocket presence of a Drew Brees.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
If for some strange reason he did make it out of the top 6, Jacksonville would have offers all over the place and about a 1% chance they stay and pick. Tannehill will likely be there, as well as Kalil.


I wonder how overrated everyone would say LT is when Detroit never ends up drafting one and gets Stafford destroyed. Play-makers are important and we always hear about how Drew Brees did it without any tackles but lose sight of the fact that Ponder is in his 2nd year and doesn't have the pocket presence of a Drew Brees.
Brees also had two of the best guards in the game. If you have top talent on the interior you can get away with below average tackles.

And it's not like the Lions have just neglected the position. Cherilus was drafted in 2008. He had to be given a chance for at least 2 years. Plus you couldn't pass on Stafford or Suh for a tackle. Last year is the one you could make a case for, but Fairly was the best player available.
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