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Old 04-28-2012, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
The "put all your faith in Belichick and completely disregard your own film study" approach is ridiculous. We don't follow the draft all year and study the players in the draft only to blindly support any pick that the team makes.

Bill Belichick has missed on a number of draft picks over the years and any pick in the draft is fair game for criticism. We're allowed to have our own opinions on the picks; go ahead and worship every pick the Patriots make if you want but I'm going to trust my own work on this one.

Bequette's film is just as bad as Tavon Wilson's; Jake's size, motor, and workout numbers are appealing but on tape he fails to locate the ball, falls for misdirection, misses tackles in space, lacks counter moves, and blows containment on the run.

The pick is reminiscent of when Belichick drafted Jermaine Cunningham in the second round; Belichick was blinded by size, workout numbers, and pedigree on the Bequette pick.

Rob Ninkovich is a much better player than Bequette; I would argue that based on instincts as well as reliability.

I've already stated my case as to why I disagree with you on Bequette(I really like his motor and how active he is in pursuit. I'm a sucker for high energy pass rushers...but it was likely a reach. Not as much of a reach as Wilson was, but Bequette looked like a fifth round type talent), but opinions aside, well said. The days of "In Bill We Trust" are gone with regards to the draft and have been for some time. Until we start hitting on some of these 2nd and 3rd round picks, skepticism is healthy. I'm not in a hurry to throw out work I've done on guys the Patriots had a higher opinion of either.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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They did that because the roster was already set and they were just trying to get rid of the picks. With the ones they couldn't get rid of, they drafted players that could make it to the PS.
The Patriots should have traded out in order to set themselves up well for 2013 if they were unsatisfied with the talent pool in 2012.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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The Patriots should have traded out in order to set themselves up well for 2013 if they were unsatisfied with the talent pool in 2012.
...and probably have still ended up with Bequette and Wilson if we really wanted them. If that was the thought process, I disagree with it too. There's some good players still on the board, particularly at wide receiver. I would have loved to have ended up with Crick too, which likely isn't happening now.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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First pick of the day, Givens goes to the Rams. I'm really hoping there are some decent WR's left by the time the Pats pick. Finish the draft strong by nabbing a good WR prospect.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Givens was a favorite of mine in terms of an under the radar guy. Lot's of speed and would have been a good fit for our system.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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I've already stated my case as to why I disagree with you on Bequette(I really like his motor and how active he is in pursuit. I'm a sucker for high energy pass rushers...but it was likely a reach. Not as much of a reach as Wilson was, but Bequette looked like a fifth round type talent), but opinions aside, well said. The days of "In Bill We Trust" are gone with regards to the draft and have been for some time. Until we start hitting on some of these 2nd and 3rd round picks, skepticism is healthy. I'm not in a hurry to throw out work I've done on guys the Patriots had a higher opinion of either.
Exactly, even the media who are notoriously slow to change their opinion even agree now that the Pats aren't one of the top drafting teams in the NFL. That accolade goes to the Packers, Ravens, Giants etc.

The Pats went through a purple patch at the start of the last decade with Brady, Seymour, Light, VW, Ty Warren, Asante Samuel etc but they also wasted a few picks. Now they aren't getting the same consistency of top class players from the draft. Obviously they have Gronk, Vollmer, Mayo etc but there have been more high profile misses than before. I do suppose though that it is harder to get impact guys on a pretty stocked team.

The constant trading back makes BB look like a genius by gathering all these extra picks but in reality it hurts when higher upside guys go off the board. Overall though the first round has been pretty good to him.

I think this year we seen the good and the bad of Bill Belichick in terms of the draft. He shrewdly manipulated his way to drafting two front 7 defenders in the first round without having to give up any second round picks.

However, he got too cute for his own good with the trade down with GB and took a complete gamble on a guy with questionable instincts, range and fluidity in the second round.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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That trade down was strange. Moving back an entire round from 2 to 3 and only getting 5th round pick in return is not good. Only explanation I can think of is BB was more interested in getting an extra pick later for depth than he was in picking any of the guys that were available at the bottom of the second round, and that was the only trade he was able to get done.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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I am pretty lukewarm on the draft so far (I like they went defense but would prefer some different guys) but I don't see how anyone can be against the offseason the Pats have had thus far.

The offense was pretty damn good and didn't need much. Brandon Lloyd could be the missing piece and real depth was brought in at WR.

Defensively though we have brought in 6 big contributors at least in Jones, Hightower, Bequette, Fanene, Scott and Gregory. The biggest issue last year wasn;'t necessarily lack of talent, but lack of depth. If we can add another contributor now we could be set for a real run. And if Wilson does anything then that's gravy
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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"Touch Down" Tommy Vardel. The 9th pick in the 1992 NFL draft for the Cleveland Browns. A fullback. Drafted by Bill Belichick.

Twenty years later he picks Wilson in the 2nd. The Wilson pick is as indefensible as the Vardel pick in opportunity costs alone. It's NFL 101. This is how good teams decline. Wilson's pick is not like Vollmer or Ridley. There is no parallel. If some other team was poised to take Mr. Wilson, so what? Let them take him. We're not losing play off games because teams are gaining an extra five yards in punt or kickoff returns. One can argue the pros and cons of Hightower or even Bequette, but to give BB any sort of credit for the Wilson pick is inexplicable. It's as bad or worse than any Al Davis reach. Coupled with the trade down and additional loss of value there, it's all just very deflating.

Of course there isn't anything anyone can do about the pick now. It certainly tempers my expectations, which is probably a good thing.

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Old 04-28-2012, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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When you can't stop guys from throwing the ball on you at will, the problem is a little more surface level than lack of depth. That's not to say we haven't done some things that could help us, but I'm still not comfortable with where we are in terms of defensive backs. With the way things are going, Dowling is going to be a very important player this year. I'm more than alright with that from a skills perspective, but unfortunately he's one of those guys you just can't count on to be healthy for prolonged stretches
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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Houston takes every single player I like. Without fail.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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When you can't stop guys from throwing the ball on you at will, the problem is a little more surface level than lack of depth. That's not to say we haven't done some things that could help us, but I'm still not comfortable with where we are in terms of defensive backs. With the way things are going, Dowling is going to be a very important player this year. I'm more than alright with that from a skills perspective, but unfortunately he's one of those guys you just can't count on to be healthy for prolonged stretches
I agree there could be an upgrade of talent but when you count on Julian Edelman, Antuwan Molden, James Ihedigbo etc it shows a lack of depth.

If Dowling can stay healthy (big IF I know) then the defensive backfield as a whole has a much better look

Dowling, McCourty and Arrington at CB with Chung and Gregory at S
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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This is one of the most depressing draft days I can remember. I have no faith in Belichick's ability to evaluate talent outside of the first round. The second and third rounds were terrible and Belichick wasn't even able to manipulate the draft board to add quality depth in the mid-to-late rounds.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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I agree there could be an upgrade of talent but when you count on Julian Edelman, Antuwan Molden, James Ihedigbo etc it shows a lack of depth.

If Dowling can stay healthy (big IF I know) then the defensive backfield as a whole has a much better look

Dowling, McCourty and Arrington at CB with Chung and Gregory at S
Well, a lot of the reason why counting on those guys is bad is because they really aren't that talented. Molden was, but it became pretty apparent that he wasn't going to be much of anything early. Semantics argument, but I don't think we're particularly talented at the top end either.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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Well, a lot of the reason why counting on those guys is bad is because they really aren't that talented. Molden was, but it became pretty apparent that he wasn't going to be much of anything early. Semantics argument, but I don't think we're particularly talented at the top end either.
Yeah the issue with depth is we don't have enough talent.

I like the top end talent though. McCourty and Dowling may not be elite CBs but as a tandem they are more than solid. Chung has playmaking ability when healthy and Arrington is a good, physical slot guy. What is missing is a stiff, slow FS with poor ball recognistion skills and poor tackling...oh wait
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Well, at least we got Tavon Wilson.


But seriously, for what it's worth, Wilson is still the worst rated player selected by NFL Network through four rounds.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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Greg Childs :(
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Childs wasn't my guy. There's still some talent at receiver on the board with Streeter, the Jones', and Criner. If we want someone, we've got a decent shot at landing them.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Minnesota's taking all the WR's. They took 2 of the Arkansas guys.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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Of all the guys left on the board, my top choice is Criner. But I won't even hope for it. BB will take some TE or long snapper.
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1 - Anyone but Shea McClellin, Derek Wolfe, Peter Konz, Kendall Reyes, Harrison Smith, Whitney Mercilus or a RB

2 Anyone but McClellin, Wolfe, Doug Martin or an OT

3 Anyone but Wolfe

**
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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I'm not looking forward to seeing how the Patriots fare once Tom Brady retires. Does anyone else feel like we're in for a rude awakening in three or four years?
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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I'm not looking forward to seeing how the Patriots fare once Tom Brady retires. Does anyone else feel like we're in for a rude awakening in three or four years?
I couldn't agree more. I'd expect BB and Tom Brady to leave at the same time too. So we'll be double ******.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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I'm not looking forward to seeing how the Patriots fare once Tom Brady retires. Does anyone else feel like we're in for a rude awakening in three or four years?
I'm not sure I would be willing to go that far, but things need to change with regards to evaluating personnel at some point. You can't keep wasting picks at the rate we have. The things we do are legitimately confounding at times.

A lot of that is more the sum of frustration from previous years as opposed to a direct indictment of the guys we've picked(OK, it's a direct indictment of Tavon Wilson) for me, but yeah. The future doesn't really piss me off that bad though. I think that we'll have some issues when Brady retires no matter what we do. What gets me going is the past. Said it before, but had we drafted better in years past, we would have won at least one(if not two) more Super Bowls.


Want to know the super frustrating thing? 45% of ESPN Boston's readership called Tavon Wilson a great sleeper pick and still trust BB to see things others can't. It's time perception caught up with reality.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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All of you guys should go buy one of these.

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I'm a whiny little kunt. Feel sorry for me as I go masturbate to a picture of my mom dressed as a teletubby.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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There were much better options to chose from on Google Images.
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