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Old 01-09-2014, 04:20 PM    (permalink
detroit4life
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
I'd only trade him if we moved to a 34 and then it might be for Barr or a different pick. With that said, I badly want to win with the team we have and not trade away guys who we've put forward as our leaders. Plus, I still believe that interior pressure trumps outside any day.
If we Switched to a 3-4 I'd think Ansah would serve as the ouside rish backer no?

At that point I would probably prefer Nix first (need a NT for any 3-4) and then Khalil Mack. Mack can do more than just rush which we would need since Ansah would probably be primarily a rush guy.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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I think its too much to trade for an unproven player. They are a better team keeping Fairley and drafting a guy at 10. I'm not a Clowney fan though.
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:01 PM    (permalink
detroit4life
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I guess it is somewhat of a lateral move. I am a fan of Clowney and thing the skeptics are overblowing his past year a bit. I also think that having him with Suh will keep his attitude in check as he wouldn't just be some superstar like he was at School.

It might be a bit overkill on the Dline though and there are probably better ways to improve the team.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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I wouldn't make the trade, Clowney has some warts and I think we are close to the SB if our new HC and OC can get the maximum out of Stafford. With the 10th pick, we should get a stud with almost 100 juniors declaring. I'd take Fairley and the 10 pick to get us to the SB.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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I'd only trade him if we moved to a 34 and then it might be for Barr or a different pick. With that said, I badly want to win with the team we have and not trade away guys who we've put forward as our leaders. Plus, I still believe that interior pressure trumps outside any day.
There a reason DE's make more money than DT's, every GM and HC knows outside pressure trumps inside pressure. How many DT's have 10+ sacks?
But I do agree that trading Fairley and the #10 pick would be foolish.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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I think people are underselling the ceiling of Clowney here a bit. I don't think its fair to pose it as stud DT vs. stud DE. I think Clowney has the potential to be a much better DE than Fairley is or will be a DT. If we found a way to get a good WR with our 2nd, I think we'd walk away from the draft a much better team. As a sidenote I also think Jason Jones is much better as an interior pass rusher than a DE, so I think we could still be very good at DT without Fairley. Clowney is a generational talent. I think you go get him if you can.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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They called Williams(Buffalo) and Peppers generational players but there are plenty of DE's who were just as good or better than both of them. I don't think Clowney will be really special, where is the production this year and if he took the year off to play it safe, what kind of pro will he be? Maybe he turns out great but maybe he doesn't.

I agree that he will likely be a better pro than Fairley because DE trumps DT IMO, but giving up the #10 pick as well, who potentially will be an All Pro is just too high a price to pay for a guy who has some warts. Besides if the Rams make that trade, they have decided that it would benefit them rather than taking Clowney for themselves, in essence, they would be saying that they don't think Clowney is all that.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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I tend to agree with IAC on second thought.

THere is no question IMO that DE trumps DT. How many times did we cause pressure last year but not finish the sack? THe DT's collapse the pocket and make the QB comfortable, but in today NFL QBs are still able to make the play. The edge prssue is where the sacks come from.

But the reason the trade probably shouldn't happen is becasue it's still somewhat of a lateral move. giving up the 10 and Fairley to get a DE addresses a position of strength while creating an additional whole. THe defense would be more improved with a LB or CB at 10 and keeping Fairley than just adding Clowney.

Our Dline is a position of strength for us and the flaws in the defense are in the back 7. It takes more than just a dominant Dline to be a shutdown defense so investing more in the DLine again is not the best way to approach it. I love Clowney and have little doubt that he is going to be a force in this league, but we just spent the #5 overall pick last year to get that same type of guy.
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Old 01-10-2014, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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They called Williams(Buffalo) and Peppers generational players but there are plenty of DE's who were just as good or better than both of them. I don't think Clowney will be really special, where is the production this year and if he took the year off to play it safe, what kind of pro will he be? Maybe he turns out great but maybe he doesn't.

I agree that he will likely be a better pro than Fairley because DE trumps DT IMO, but giving up the #10 pick as well, who potentially will be an All Pro is just too high a price to pay for a guy who has some warts. Besides if the Rams make that trade, they have decided that it would benefit them rather than taking Clowney for themselves, in essence, they would be saying that they don't think Clowney is all that.
Fwiw, I'm just fine if we do that trade and he ends up being Julius Peppers.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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I'm considered about his mental makeup, but Detroit would be the best place for Clowney. Detroit is the only place where he would be practicing with more athletic defensive linemen on a daily basis.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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Clowney rules, but I'm not trading Fairley AND #10 for him. No way no how. We don't need a DE that bad, we're fine for now. I'd be open to moving Fairley though..
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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I know its not the perfect measure any more, but the draft value chart has the 2 pick worth 2600, the 10 pick worth 1300. That means you are basically getting the value of the 10th pick in return for Fairley.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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What do you think a team would trade for Fairley by himself?

He is a free agent next off-season but they do hold a team option on him for 2015 if they want.

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf..._been_set.html

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His cap numbers are approximately $2.7 million and $3.1 million the next two seasons. The Lions have a team option for 2015, that would pay him equivalent to the average salary of the 3rd through 25th highest paid at his position.
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Old 01-10-2014, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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What do you think a team would trade for Fairley by himself?

He is a free agent next off-season but they do hold a team option on him for 2015 if they want.

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf..._been_set.html
Great question, I would be open to trading him if we got good value, but I doubt that would happen and I'm not even sure what would be considered good value.

There's no reason to trade him just to move him. He isn't killing our cap and our defense relies on him and Suh in the middle. I'd want pretty good value for him if we were to move him.
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Old 01-11-2014, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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He hasn't exactly disappointed, I wouldn't trade him for less than the #13 pick we used on him.. but that's just me.
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Old 01-12-2014, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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Give me Watkins!
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Old 01-12-2014, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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Well, I just read that Whisenhunt comes from the 3-4 defense tree, so if he is the hire, it could really impact our draft since we don't have a NT and may be short #'s at LB. I would guess that Nix and Mack could be seriously in the discussion for the #10 overall pick and even the #2 pick could be defense.
Suh and Fairley would be the DE's with Ansah moving to rush LBer. That leaves NT unmanned for sure and you you cannot play a 3-4 without a solid NT.
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Old 01-12-2014, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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Well, I just read that Whisenhunt comes from the 3-4 defense tree, so if he is the hire, it could really impact our draft since we don't have a NT and may be short #'s at LB. I would guess that Nix and Mack could be seriously in the discussion for the #10 overall pick and even the #2 pick could be defense.
Suh and Fairley would be the DE's with Ansah moving to rush LBer. That leaves NT unmanned for sure and you you cannot play a 3-4 without a solid NT.
I think the speculation is that he will bring Ray Horton in as DC and they'd run a hybrid 3-4.

Unless they think they can make the personnel work, Nix would start making a lot of sense.
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Old 01-13-2014, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Well, I just read that Whisenhunt comes from the 3-4 defense tree, so if he is the hire, it could really impact our draft since we don't have a NT and may be short #'s at LB. I would guess that Nix and Mack could be seriously in the discussion for the #10 overall pick and even the #2 pick could be defense.
Suh and Fairley would be the DE's with Ansah moving to rush LBer. That leaves NT unmanned for sure and you you cannot play a 3-4 without a solid NT.
No way we go NT at 10, zero chance IMO. I could see us going Mosley on rush downs, Fairley on pass downs for the NT spot. IF not, they will have to bring in a new one, but it won't be with that kind of resources. I would guess it would be some sort of experienced vet who could serve as a place holder type.
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Old 01-14-2014, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Really hoping Xanders does not get the Miami GM job (he is interviewing today). I do not think it was a coincidence that we had such a great draft last year with him here.
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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I know its not the perfect measure any more, but the draft value chart has the 2 pick worth 2600, the 10 pick worth 1300. That means you are basically getting the value of the 10th pick in return for Fairley.
I'm pretty sure the Rams wouldn't accept Fairley as worth 1300 points, they want at least another 2nd/3rd rounder thrown in. When teams dump their own 1st rounders, they generally only get a 2nd rounder in return. So, you figure out the points needed to get the #2 overall pick. Just not worth it IMO.
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
No way we go NT at 10, zero chance IMO. I could see us going Mosley on rush downs, Fairley on pass downs for the NT spot. IF not, they will have to bring in a new one, but it won't be with that kind of resources. I would guess it would be some sort of experienced vet who could serve as a place holder type.
With Whisenhunt signing elsewhere, I agree. However, if we had signed Whisenhunt and switched to a 3-4, here are Scotts' current ranking for the draft released today.

8) Mack LB
9) Mosley ILB
10) Ebron TE
11) Nix NT
12) Gilbert CB
13) Evans WR

I think with this order of prospects, it is certainly not impossible that Nix wouldn't have been the choice. Anyways, this order of prospects certainly offers us a lot of hope on draft day of securing a solid need position.
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:16 PM    (permalink
detroit4life
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With Whisenhunt signing elsewhere, I agree. However, if we had signed Whisenhunt and switched to a 3-4, here are Scotts' current ranking for the draft released today.

8) Mack LB
9) Mosley ILB
10) Ebron TE
11) Nix NT
12) Gilbert CB
13) Evans WR

I think with this order of prospects, it is certainly not impossible that Nix wouldn't have been the choice. Anyways, this order of prospects certainly offers us a lot of hope on draft day of securing a solid need position.
Agree, I definitely think Nix would have been in play, but at this point I obviously don't see that happening. I would be more than fine with any other guy on that list.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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NTs are just not valuable enough. Nix will not go top 16. I guarantee it right now. No way we take one with how much we have invested in Suh and Fairley, regarldess of scheme. It would have been a total waste that did little to improve us.
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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NTs are just not valuable enough. Nix will not go top 16. I guarantee it right now. No way we take one with how much we have invested in Suh and Fairley, regarldess of scheme. It would have been a total waste that did little to improve us.
If you are running a 3-4 I don't think I could disagree with you more. NT is one of the more important positions in the defense. Wilfork? Ngata? Hampton back in the day?

Just about every successful 3-4 has a 3-4 cog in the middle anchoring the front 7. If you don't have that buy there taking up space and blockers you open yourself up to getting killed up the middle.
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