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Old 05-06-2014, 11:03 AM    (permalink
Fred Savage
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Agreed on Ebron over Beckham at #10. Think Ebron has potential to be more of a game changer for us than Beckham does, I like them both.

For discussion purposes, if we move up to #3, assuming it goes 1). Clowney
2). Robinson/Matthews, do we take Mack or Watkins? What does everyone feel or true target is, Watkins? or anyone of Clowney, Mack, Watkins, Robinson?
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:08 AM    (permalink
detroit4life
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Originally Posted by Fred Savage View Post
Agreed on Ebron over Beckham at #10. Think Ebron has potential to be more of a game changer for us than Beckham does, I like them both.

For discussion purposes, if we move up to #3, assuming it goes 1). Clowney
2). Robinson/Matthews, do we take Mack or Watkins? What does everyone feel or true target is, Watkins? or anyone of Clowney, Mack, Watkins, Robinson?
That is an incredibly tough call. I would prefer Mack as I think he would give us an incredible defense for years to come. But I think we would take Watkins, because our strategy all along seems to be build an elite offense and give Stafford every chance to take his game to the elite level.

I don't think we could go wrong between the 2 though
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Fred Savage View Post
Agreed on Ebron over Beckham at #10. Think Ebron has potential to be more of a game changer for us than Beckham does, I like them both.

For discussion purposes, if we move up to #3, assuming it goes 1). Clowney
2). Robinson/Matthews, do we take Mack or Watkins? What does everyone feel or true target is, Watkins? or anyone of Clowney, Mack, Watkins, Robinson?
I've said for a while now that I believe Mack would truly complete this defense. We need more athleticism at LB, we need more sacks and we need more ability to change up our defensive fronts. Mack does all of that for us.

Use your 2nd to move up and use your 3rd on a WR, whoever falls due to the depth. Roll with the DBs you have for a year.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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As much as I dislike taking Ebron at #10 I have to agree here. Taking Beckham at #10 would be awful IMO. I don't see how he could be rated as a top 10 talent, WR is pretty far down our list of needs, and it's the deepest position in this draft.
WR is one of our top 2-3 needs, but other than that we agree.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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I've said for a while now that I believe Mack would truly complete this defense. We need more athleticism at LB, we need more sacks and we need more ability to change up our defensive fronts. Mack does all of that for us.

Use your 2nd to move up and use your 3rd on a WR, whoever falls due to the depth. Roll with the DBs you have for a year.
Well if we trade up we won't have our 2nd. So you'd be looking at Landry in the 3rd probably.

I agree with the idea of what Mack would add to our defense. He would make us significantly better. However I have a hard time saying he'd complete our defense because we would still have serious issues in the secondary. But our pass rush would be good enough to minimize that weakness.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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I've said for a while now that I believe Mack would truly complete this defense. We need more athleticism at LB, we need more sacks and we need more ability to change up our defensive fronts. Mack does all of that for us.

Use your 2nd to move up and use your 3rd on a WR, whoever falls due to the depth. Roll with the DBs you have for a year.
I am leaning with that thinking. I think Mack can do more for us. WR's can be found later, esp 2nd or 3rd options.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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Well if we trade up we won't have our 2nd. So you'd be looking at Landry in the 3rd probably.

I agree with the idea of what Mack would add to our defense. He would make us significantly better. However I have a hard time saying he'd complete our defense because we would still have serious issues in the secondary. But our pass rush would be good enough to minimize that weakness.
Yah, I said use your 2nd to move up,as in move up in the 1st for Mack. Then use your 3rd on a WR.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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Yah, I said use your 2nd to move up,as in move up in the 1st for Mack. Then use your 3rd on a WR.
My apologies then, I misread it.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Fwiw, I love Landry
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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WR is one of our top 2-3 needs, but other than that we agree.
I agree in the sense that our #3 WR is probably one of the weakest points on our team but I disagree in general because nobody's #3 WR is among their top needs. Certainly not a team coming off a losing season. I'd take an elite CB/S/TE/LT/LB/DE all over an elite WR. We've already added Golden Tate to an offense that was productive last season.

Assuming the team feels it can find a role for Mack to excel in I like the idea of trading up for him but again I'm not convinced we'll be able to do it for just a 2nd. Would you do it for a 2nd and a 4th? I'd certainly be willing to if they believed that Mack was noticeably ahead of the guys we'd be looking at when we're picking at #10.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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A 3rd WR might see anywhere from 50-75 targets in this offense and if Tate or Johnson were to go down, they'd immediate be one of the more important players on our offense. #3 WRs are starters in today's NFL. They matter a lot.

2nd and a 4th seems a little steep, but I wouldn't be able to not pull the trigger over a 4th round pick if I believed in Mack(which I do personally). Ideally we'd do more of a swap. Throw in our 4th but get our 5th back from Jacksonville or something.

I'd rather give our future 1st than this year's 2nd fwiw. I like this draft and am really excited about the 2014 season, so I see more value in that trade.

Also I think its an issue that most of the positions you listed don't have an elite player in this draft. The ones that do, all of them are being considered as a trade up target IMO.

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Old 05-06-2014, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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A 3rd WR might see anywhere from 50-75 targets in this offense and if Tate or Johnson were to go down, they'd immediate be one of the more important players on our offense. #3 WRs are starters in today's NFL. They matter a lot.

2nd and a 4th seems a little steep, but I wouldn't be able to not pull the trigger over a 4th round pick if I believed in Mack(which I do personally). Ideally we'd do more of a swap. Throw in our 4th but get our 5th back from Jacksonville or something.

I'd rather give our future 1st than this year's 2nd fwiw. I like this draft and am really excited about the 2014 season, so I see more value in that trade.

Also I think its an issue that most of the positions you listed don't have an elite player in this draft. The ones that do, all of them are being considered as a trade up target IMO.
I'm not saying that #3 WRs are completely insignificant but the positional value is so far below the other positions I mentioned. That's why I'm completely against taking Beckham at #10. He's not a top 10 talent IMO so we'd be reaching for a prospect that plays a less important position. 50-75 targets wouldn't even put them in the top 50 amongst just WRs last season.

I agree that a 4th round pick shouldn't be the deciding factor if you really like a prospect. That's kind of what I was getting at. If you truly believe there's a drop off in talent after that top tier of guys you can't let a single 4th round pick stand in your way.

I also think I like the future 1st idea but in that case I would assume we wouldn't have to add in the 4th rounder. I'm always wary of making trades like that though as they can easily blow up in our face if we have a bad season.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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You have to have enough confidence in your team to make the trade I guess.

WR 3 isn't important enough for me to reach on Beckham, but its not unimportant enough for me to ignore Watkins either.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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You have to have enough confidence in your team to make the trade I guess.

WR 3 isn't important enough for me to reach on Beckham, but its not unimportant enough for me to ignore Watkins either.
Yeah I'm not saying you shouldn't make that trade I'm just saying there's a kind of uneasiness in being in that situation. It takes away that level of security you feel when you know that if you have a bad season at least you'll get a chance to add a top prospect.

The Watkins situation is different because he's likely better than the other prospects available. I have no problem with grabbing a WR if he's BPA. However, I would take Mack of Watkins if the team feels Mack is a good fit for their defense and I think Clowney over Watkins would be a no-brainer for us. The point was regarding situations with prospects of similar grades that play different positions. The Beckham situation is even worse as I believe he would hold a lower grade than prospects that play more valuable positions.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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See I think Beckham grades out to the same level as HaHa, Barr or any other CB. From the terms of quality player, he is on the same level as them. So therefore the question is do you reach for a WR, or do you reach for a Safety or DE.

Everyone at this point has Beckham in the same tier as the other guys, so it comes down to where do we want to upgrade.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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I think moving up could be cheap. Miami moved from 12 to 3 for a 2nd last year. This draft is more top heavy, but also deeper, so I think the value could be the same or less.

I doubt we have a particular target at this point. JMO. I think Mayhew places a really high value on the top 3-4 players in this draft, who he referred to as blue chips, while calling the next group red chips. I think he'd move up for whoever was good value. Probably more so the 2 pass rushers and Watkins though.
Nobody wanted a top 5 pick last year unless you wanted a LT. It was one of the worst drafts in a decade. You won't get a discount to move up for a top 5 pick in this year's draft, you'll have to pay a bonus. I'd guess Jacksonville will be asking for 2 firsts and a 3rd. for a team wanting a top 5 pick and Mayhew has already said he has no interest in moving up, likely because he knows it will be expensive.

I'm guessing Fuller or Barr will be our pick now that Gilbert and Dennard have fallen somewhat. I'd be happy with either one.

I think Barr with Suh, Fairley and Ansuh would only face single teams for his whole career and would put up double digit sacks as a DE or a rush LBer.

Fuller could be that lockdown corner who elimiates the top receiver on the other team.

Either way, the defense could take a huge step forward.

Round 2/3 could be real interesting. I thought WR was a cinch for round 2, but I'm not so sure now. This year's draft is sensational, does that mean next year's draft will absolutely stink and if Raiola is definitely retiring next year, who will be our OC. Mayock seems to be suggesting that the top OC's in this year's draft will be 2nd rounders, can we afford to not grab one with our 2nd rounder and take the chance we will have a huge hole at the position next year. Hopefully, Mayhew has a plan and a prospect in round 3 that will solve the problem.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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Nobody wanted a top 5 pick last year unless you wanted a LT. It was one of the worst drafts in a decade. You won't get a discount to move up for a top 5 pick in this year's draft, you'll have to pay a bonus. I'd guess Jacksonville will be asking for 2 firsts and a 3rd. for a team wanting a top 5 pick and Mayhew has already said he has no interest in moving up, likely because he knows it will be expensive.
He literally just said yesterday that they'd be open to all options. I'd like a source of him saying they're not interested in moving up. You've talked at length about how deep this draft is and how no team will be willing to give up 2nd and 3rd round picks because they're so valuable and now you're saying this. I don't think it can go both ways.

As for the comment about Beckham being around a top 10 talent in this draft, I strongly disagree with that statement and if he is than this draft is nowhere near as good as people are making it out to be. Even if he's at the same level as Gilbert/HaHa/Barr I honestly don't see how we could take him over those guys instead of taking a slightly worse WR in the 2nd round. You can't say the same thing about 2nd round S/CB/DE.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Yeah I'm not saying you shouldn't make that trade I'm just saying there's a kind of uneasiness in being in that situation. It takes away that level of security you feel when you know that if you have a bad season at least you'll get a chance to add a top prospect.

The Watkins situation is different because he's likely better than the other prospects available. I have no problem with grabbing a WR if he's BPA. However, I would take Mack of Watkins if the team feels Mack is a good fit for their defense and I think Clowney over Watkins would be a no-brainer for us. The point was regarding situations with prospects of similar grades that play different positions. The Beckham situation is even worse as I believe he would hold a lower grade than prospects that play more valuable positions.

No disagreement. Just pointing out(which you don't seem to disagree with) that Watkins is a special, elite prospect. Sometimes you just have to get that great player when you can, need be damned.

Its been reported that at least one GM has Watkins as easily the best player in this draft. Food for thought.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:35 PM    (permalink
Fred Savage
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Mayhew has already said he has no interest in moving up, likely because he knows it will be expensive.
??? Everything I have read over the last two months talks about Mayhew wanting very badly to move up in the draft.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:36 PM    (permalink
Nastradamus
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Nobody wanted a top 5 pick last year unless you wanted a LT. It was one of the worst drafts in a decade. You won't get a discount to move up for a top 5 pick in this year's draft, you'll have to pay a bonus. I'd guess Jacksonville will be asking for 2 firsts and a 3rd. for a team wanting a top 5 pick and Mayhew has already said he has no interest in moving up, likely because he knows it will be expensive.
Nobody wanted the top 5 picks, but you also have to factor in that the 10th pick and the 45th pick(by your own personal estimation too) are worth far more than they were last year too.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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and Mayhew just said at his presser yesterday that he is open to in both moving up and moving down, wherever he feels the best value is, and there is a trade partner. He definitely didn't shut down the idea that he would move up
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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He literally just said yesterday that they'd be open to all options. I'd like a source of him saying they're not interested in moving up. You've talked at length about how deep this draft is and how no team will be willing to give up 2nd and 3rd round picks because they're so valuable and now you're saying this. I don't think it can go both ways.

As for the comment about Beckham being around a top 10 talent in this draft, I strongly disagree with that statement and if he is than this draft is nowhere near as good as people are making it out to be. Even if he's at the same level as Gilbert/HaHa/Barr I honestly don't see how we could take him over those guys instead of taking a slightly worse WR in the 2nd round. You can't say the same thing about 2nd round S/CB/DE.
Never said he was a top 10 talent. I stated he is in the 11-18 range along with every other player we would be looking to take at #10.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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See I think Beckham grades out to the same level as HaHa, Barr or any other CB. From the terms of quality player, he is on the same level as them. So therefore the question is do you reach for a WR, or do you reach for a Safety or DE.

Everyone at this point has Beckham in the same tier as the other guys, so it comes down to where do we want to upgrade.
I have Beckham in that area too. I just think in that scenario, with all the similar talent, WR falls to the back of the list and you take Barr,Ha Ha, Shazier, Dennard/Gilbert/Fuller,Donald etc. over him.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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I have Beckham in that area too. I just think in that scenario, with all the similar talent, WR falls to the back of the list and you take Barr,Ha Ha, Shazier, Dennard/Gilbert/Fuller,Donald etc. over him.
I can't argue that mind set. The guy i'd prefer is HaHa. I'll be honest and say that Barr scares the heck out of me. I don't want to take the gamble on him at #10. I simply don't think it's worth it in this situation. With Ziggy still developing, we would have a lot invested in young pass rushers who are both raw.

I think HaHa and Beckham are safer picks at areas of need who can step in on day 1 and help this team win. I wouldn't mind a corner either, especially if there is serious doubt in Houston's health. But a rookie corner probably will not help us that much this year. The transition is simply too difficult.

I'm really just hoping we don't pick at #10 because IMO everything I just said represents a reach to some degree and not the value we should hope for at #10. I would be fine with Ha Ha, Pryor, Beckham, Cooks, Mosley, Shazier, and any of the 3 CBs and because of that, trading down into the late teens is the most ideal scenario (outside of moving up at a discounted price)
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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He literally just said yesterday that they'd be open to all options. I'd like a source of him saying they're not interested in moving up. You've talked at length about how deep this draft is and how no team will be willing to give up 2nd and 3rd round picks because they're so valuable and now you're saying this. I don't think it can go both ways.

As for the comment about Beckham being around a top 10 talent in this draft, I strongly disagree with that statement and if he is than this draft is nowhere near as good as people are making it out to be. Even if he's at the same level as Gilbert/HaHa/Barr I honestly don't see how we could take him over those guys instead of taking a slightly worse WR in the 2nd round. You can't say the same thing about 2nd round S/CB/DE.
I think if you want to move up say from 17 to 15, you could get a discount as long as it is only moving up a couple of spots and doesn't involve a top 5 pick. The top 5 picks in this draft are being talked about a future HoFers, they aren't coming cheap. If it was only going to cost a 2nd to get a future HoFer, I'd think the offers would be flowing in for those picks, but I don't think they are.
I must have misunderstood the radio yesterday which I thought was saying Mayhew said he had made no attempts to move up other than 1 phone call early in the process.

I cannot see Beckham going top 10 more likely in the next group.
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