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Old 05-06-2014, 04:10 PM    (permalink
georgiafan
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I think the lions are in a spot where it would make alot of sense to trade up
this is assuming they don't have a top 10 grade on a DB. If you can trade up and only give up a 2nd and a 6th and you get a elite prospect on your board.

I think the trade up would be for Watkins he would not be your #3 WR (maybe early on) but he would be #2 and then Tate would be the #3. Also has great has Calvin has been he does have a injury history. If he misses a game now then your WR core is still pretty bad.
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:21 PM    (permalink
detroit4life
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Say we do keep our 2nd round pick.

2 guys I am praying for in round 2 are Jimmie Ward and Van Noy.

Both of these guys would give us a great boost of talent at positions of need. If we pass up WR in the 1st, I am almost hoping we wait til the 3rd to grab one so we can get one of these guys. I'd love to have Ward back at safety next to Quin. His instincts and ability to make plays behind our Dline could lead to a ton of turnovers.
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Old 05-06-2014, 05:07 PM    (permalink
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I can't argue that mind set. The guy i'd prefer is HaHa. I'll be honest and say that Barr scares the heck out of me. I don't want to take the gamble on him at #10. I simply don't think it's worth it in this situation. With Ziggy still developing, we would have a lot invested in young pass rushers who are both raw.

I think HaHa and Beckham are safer picks at areas of need who can step in on day 1 and help this team win. I wouldn't mind a corner either, especially if there is serious doubt in Houston's health. But a rookie corner probably will not help us that much this year. The transition is simply too difficult.

I'm really just hoping we don't pick at #10 because IMO everything I just said represents a reach to some degree and not the value we should hope for at #10. I would be fine with Ha Ha, Pryor, Beckham, Cooks, Mosley, Shazier, and any of the 3 CBs and because of that, trading down into the late teens is the most ideal scenario (outside of moving up at a discounted price)
There isn't a team out there that doesn't want to trade back, even Houston is on that bandwagon. Finding a trading partner in a buyer's market just isn't that easy
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Old 05-06-2014, 09:53 PM    (permalink
detroit4life
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There isn't a team out there that doesn't want to trade back, even Houston is on that bandwagon. Finding a trading partner in a buyer's market just isn't that easy
Yes we are all well aware. I feel like that point has been stressed more than enough and it goes without saying. The question is, what value are you willing to take. You even mentioned a few days ago the idea of trading back for a 3rd. I think you could easily move back into the 15-17 range for a 3rd.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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Trade everything necessary for Watkins.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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I don't think trading up in this deep of a draft at WR is the best choice, but as a fan, it sure would be entertaining to see.

If we are goingto go Madden here, why not Ansah-Fairley-Suh-Clowney where Watkins is a smoke screen.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Haven't we already gone through the load up on WR phase? Mayhew worked under Millen. He's missed on a lot of late first/second round picks. I've been growing more skeptical of his moves.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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double post dammit

Last edited by Nastradamus : 05-07-2014 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Say we do keep our 2nd round pick.

2 guys I am praying for in round 2 are Jimmie Ward and Van Noy.

Both of these guys would give us a great boost of talent at positions of need. If we pass up WR in the 1st, I am almost hoping we wait til the 3rd to grab one so we can get one of these guys. I'd love to have Ward back at safety next to Quin. His instincts and ability to make plays behind our Dline could lead to a ton of turnovers.
Huge fan of both players. Classic cases of "tape don't lie"
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Haven't we already gone through the load up on WR phase? Mayhew worked under Millen. He's missed on a lot of late first/second round picks. I've been growing more skeptical of his moves.
Not really since they all sucked and we were at a far different stage of team building. Without a QB, without a defense etc.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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I don't think trading up in this deep of a draft at WR is the best choice, but as a fan, it sure would be entertaining to see.

If we are goingto go Madden here, why not Ansah-Fairley-Suh-Clowney where Watkins is a smoke screen.
I'm not going to lie, I'd give 3 first rounders for Clowney. I know that nobody else will agree with me, but I think I'd have to pull the trigger. Its not every day you get a chance to draft a kid with the ceiling of best defensive player ever. Downside or not.
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Old 05-07-2014, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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Its not every day you get a chance to draft a kid with the ceiling of best defensive player ever. Downside or not.
We drafted him at #5 last year sir. All kidding aside, I would not wanna make a huge move up for Clowney, as big as a freak as he is there are some concerns to warrant mortgaging your future. I think our best bet is to move up to #5 for Evans (Mack or Watkins if something strange happens) if the price is right as I have heard rumors of Oakland wanting to trade down for Carr. Or move down to Dallas' spot if we can't find a deal and there isn't a player worth taking.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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I don't think I would trade 3 firsts either. I think our defense would be better served making that investment into our secondary and filling our glaring holes on the back half of the secondary.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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I don't see glaring holes myself. Room for improvement? Sure. Glaring holes? That's a stretch IMO. I think the biggest problem with our pass defense was our lack of sacks. I'll line up with Clowney,Ansah,Suh,Fairley and take my chances. If you can't win a SB or come close with the game's best DL and a likely top 5 offense, I'd be rather surprised.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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I don't see glaring holes myself. Room for improvement? Sure. Glaring holes? That's a stretch IMO. I think the biggest problem with our pass defense was our lack of sacks. I'll line up with Clowney,Ansah,Suh,Fairley and take my chances. If you can't win a SB or come close with the game's best DL and a likely top 5 offense, I'd be rather surprised.

That is where we differ, I blame our lack of sacks to the fact that QBs had an easy time getting rid of the ball quickly. I think there is no reason that our Dline as it is cannot become elite. We were relatively strong against the pass last year, mostly due to the pressure our Dline got. Sacks didn't happen because the coverage couldn't hold up.

A good Dline can cover up for a bad secondary, as we proved last year. But the secondary still needs to pull their own weight. If you build an above average secondary with the Dline we have now, I believe we would have a better defense than if we simply just kept adding pass rushers.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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What are you basing that on? We had nobody on the roster who was known for getting sacks as an edge rusher. Young had like 4 in 3 years, Ansah was a raw rookie, Taylor and Jones are run stuffers/interior pass rushers. Suh is a stud, but he's not going to be a 10-15 sack guy. Idonije obviously wasn't the answer. Plus we didn't blitz or even have any blitz or pass rush threats at LB. On the other hand, while our CBs struggled, our safeties both rated very well and Mathis stepped up big time down the stretch. Slay was a rookie and Houston was hurt, both should be better this year.
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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I'm basing that on the fact that our line led the league in QB hurries by a pretty large margin and is a top Dline in the league according to advanced stats. That is with a raw rookie like you mentioned who I would hope gets significantly better.

Our Dline is not the issue for our defense, it is our strength no question. With improved play from Ansah it should continue to rank among the best in the league. If you manage to add a talented secondary who can pull their own weight behind them, the defense should become a top 10 defense easily.

I have faith in Slay becoming a good corner. But Houston is still hurt and Ihedigbo is not an above average starter. Mathis was good last year but he'll be 34 this year and there is a good reason why he is only getting small 1 year deals. The rest of the guys behind them shouldn't be counted on for much and simply are not starters in this league.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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I'm basing that on the fact that our line led the league in QB hurries by a pretty large margin and is a top Dline in the league according to advanced stats. That is with a raw rookie like you mentioned who I would hope gets significantly better.

Our Dline is not the issue for our defense, it is our strength no question. With improved play from Ansah it should continue to rank among the best in the league. If you manage to add a talented secondary who can pull their own weight behind them, the defense should become a top 10 defense easily.

I have faith in Slay becoming a good corner. But Houston is still hurt and Ihedigbo is not an above average starter. Mathis was good last year but he'll be 34 this year and there is a good reason why he is only getting small 1 year deals. The rest of the guys behind them shouldn't be counted on for much and simply are not starters in this league.
Gee, you are thinking like me, I couldn't agree more. Put a stud or 2 back there in the secondary and our defense could be really special and the offense wouldn't have to carry the whole load.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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I'm not going to lie, I'd give 3 first rounders for Clowney. I know that nobody else will agree with me, but I think I'd have to pull the trigger. Its not every day you get a chance to draft a kid with the ceiling of best defensive player ever. Downside or not.
The question I have about Clowney is, why is Houston trying so hard to trade out of the #1 overall pick if Clowney is such a sure thing???? It just makes me think that Clowney has serious red flags and is more of a boom or bust project than we think.

I hope he is great because I absolutely hate wasted talent and he is loaded with that, but his intangibles scare the hell out of me.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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I don't see glaring holes myself. Room for improvement? Sure. Glaring holes? That's a stretch IMO. I think the biggest problem with our pass defense was our lack of sacks. I'll line up with Clowney,Ansah,Suh,Fairley and take my chances. If you can't win a SB or come close with the game's best DL and a likely top 5 offense, I'd be rather surprised.
Secondary is not a glaring hole but like DE and OLB could be improved. The Lions could cover even with a banged up Houston. Best in 3rd down % proves that even with low sack totals. Lions still pressured other QBs with hits/hurries. The problem was CB turnovers forced. 2 picks doesn't cut it from just Houston. Safeties and LBs did their job though with picks. Slay will grow, Mathis can play well and Bentley can be solid if healthy but all 3 of those guys need to figure out how to create picks in 2014.

Slay is 6'1 and ran a 4.36. Plus has a year of experience. I'll take that over the top 3 CBs in this draft. However, with Houstons toe injury an Mathis age, CB is very much on the board. But Houston in 2011/2012 form and Slay developing is probably our best bet for secondary improvement over any rookie.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Secondary is not a glaring hole but like DE and OLB could be improved. The Lions could cover even with a banged up Houston. Best in 3rd down % proves that even with low sack totals. Lions still pressured other QBs with hits/hurries. The problem was CB turnovers forced. 2 picks doesn't cut it from just Houston. Safeties and LBs did their job though with picks. Slay will grow, Mathis can play well and Bentley can be solid if healthy but all 3 of those guys need to figure out how to create picks in 2014.

Slay is 6'1 and ran a 4.36. Plus has a year of experience. I'll take that over the top 3 CBs in this draft. However, with Houstons toe injury an Mathis age, CB is very much on the board. But Houston in 2011/2012 form and Slay developing is probably our best bet for secondary improvement over any rookie.
I know we are all hoping Slay develops, but last year's draft was a very weak one, nothing compared to this year's, yet Slay lasted till round 2 when teams were really struggling to find 1st round talent. It certainly worries me a lot that Slay ceiling may be a lot lower than we think.

IMO, the top 5 CB's in this draft are far superior to anything we currently have on our roster.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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I know we are all hoping Slay develops, but last year's draft was a very weak one, nothing compared to this year's, yet Slay lasted till round 2 when teams were really struggling to find 1st round talent. It certainly worries me a lot that Slay ceiling may be a lot lower than we think.

IMO, the top 5 CB's in this draft are far superior to anything we currently have on our roster.
I disagree. Lions had a 1st round grade on Slay still. He dropped due to his knee injury and only lacked not playing zone coverage. Slay has more size and speed than anyone plus a year of experience. Dennard is a better tackler and in the press though. Slay played well against the Packers and Vikings to end it too. Slay has just as much potential IMO. They may take a CB but that has more to due with Houston's injury and poor play while injured in 2013.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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IMO slay is not the argument. 1 good young CB does not give you a good secondary. The way I see it, half of our secondary is starting caliber. That is Quin and Slay.

Ihedigbo is a stop gap solution at best and Houston is showing no signs of a turnaround. He can't even participate in workouts yet because he is still having toe issues. Even if he does have a better year, he is not a long term solution and should be cut after the season.

We need to add 2 starters to our secondary in the next 2 years. Our secondary is a weakness that has been covered up by our Dline. That Dline should only get better as Ansah develops and if there is an area on the defense that desperately needs added talent, it is the secondary. Turnovers and better coverage is what we need. Those QB hurries will turn into more sacks and when the QB does throw a bad pass because suh is right there, we need guys who can go and get that ball.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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Gee, you are thinking like me, I couldn't agree more. Put a stud or 2 back there in the secondary and our defense could be really special and the offense wouldn't have to carry the whole load.
Is there a stud though? Who is it?

Nobody seems confident enough, across the net, to say that any of Ha Ha, Dennard,Pryor,Fuller etc. are surefire studs. If there was a Patrick Petersen in this class, he' be the guy I wanted in a trade up.

Our DL isn't a problem, but it isn't perfect either. Fairley is probably leaving next year and we don't have a sack producer opposite Ansah.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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Secondary is not a glaring hole but like DE and OLB could be improved. The Lions could cover even with a banged up Houston. Best in 3rd down % proves that even with low sack totals. Lions still pressured other QBs with hits/hurries. The problem was CB turnovers forced. 2 picks doesn't cut it from just Houston. Safeties and LBs did their job though with picks. Slay will grow, Mathis can play well and Bentley can be solid if healthy but all 3 of those guys need to figure out how to create picks in 2014.

Slay is 6'1 and ran a 4.36. Plus has a year of experience. I'll take that over the top 3 CBs in this draft. However, with Houstons toe injury an Mathis age, CB is very much on the board. But Houston in 2011/2012 form and Slay developing is probably our best bet for secondary improvement over any rookie.
I'd love someone like Joyner or Ward in the 2nd, as they are both guys who can create turnovers IMO. That will be a big key for us.
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