What Did YOU Think of Bruce Irvin at #15?

[FrankGore]

And again, I'm not talking about anyone's outside perspective. It is my perspective, just like anyone else here has their own perspective. I wouldn't have spent a top 15 pick on Bruce Irvin.

We'll see if it pans out, I'm certainly not the one writing the story to his career. Maybe Carroll gets what he wants out of him and he becomes a 15-sack guy. I'm not telling you he won't be, I just think you can use this logic for ANY team drafting and say they made a great decision. IE. the Chiefs taking Dontari Poe is a "ball of clay", the Jets with Stephen Hill is a "ball of clay", etc. Usually when you have to use that term it means the guy has a long way to go as a football player. Which Bruce Irvin does. There's no disputing that.

The Seahawks are free to draft as they want and obviously they feel good about the choice, so do the fans. I think there's a chance he'll be great, but it involves a lot of things going right. We'll see if they do.

[Caddy]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

Same reason you use words like "butthurt" and "slammed."

TO PISS YOU OFF, *****!

Why would I be pissed off? My team didn't draft Bruce Irvin.

Also love how OP asked what YOU think and then everyone immediately goes, what you think is wrong. What the pro scouts think is all that matters. Don't ask what people think if you don't want personal opinions.

[WCH]

Originally Posted by Caddy

Why would I be pissed off? My team didn't draft Bruce Irvin.

Also love how OP asked what YOU think and then everyone immediately goes, what you think is wrong. What the pro scouts think is all that matters. Don't ask what people think if you don't want personal opinions.

Yeah, I agree. The Appeal to Authority arguments are getting a bit out of hand now that the Draft is over.

[FrankGore]

Originally Posted by WCH

Yeah, I agree. The Appeal to Authority arguments are getting a bit out of hand now that the Draft is over.

We're dangerously close to "they're in the NFL, they know more than you" statements. Often times, they don't know very much. That's why there's constant upheaval and firings each year. Very few teams have truly earned the trust of that type of argument.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by FrankGore

And again, I'm not talking about anyone's outside perspective. It is my perspective, just like anyone else here has their own perspective. I wouldn't have spent a top 15 pick on Bruce Irvin.

We'll see if it pans out, I'm certainly not the one writing the story to his career. Maybe Carroll gets what he wants out of him and he becomes a 15-sack guy. I'm not telling you he won't be, I just think you can use this logic for ANY team drafting and say they made a great decision. IE. the Chiefs taking Dontari Poe is a "ball of clay", the Jets with Stephen Hill is a "ball of clay", etc. Usually when you have to use that term it means the guy has a long way to go as a football player. Which Bruce Irvin does. There's no disputing that.

The Seahawks are free to draft as they want and obviously they feel good about the choice, so do the fans. I think there's a chance he'll be great, but it involves a lot of things going right. We'll see if they do.

Went back to re-read your post just to make sure I wasn't creating an argument where there wasn't one, and realized I'd been kind of unclear, at least as far as my intention in including that part of your post in my response. I was thinking about how people talk about prospects' value; you say he's a "late-first, but not a mid-first guy," or something along those lines. Thing is, that doesn't take into account the teams that are waiting in the late first, mid-first, or anywhere else. So it's not you saying "I think he's a late-first" and then me saying, "No! you're wrong!"

It's not simply a matter of how we rank them against other prospects, but according to the needs of the team - and I suppose my point is that I think that is how TEAMS do it. As draftniks, we never rank for teams. So when a guy like Irvin goes high, we go, "Ooooh... has got a lot of work to do. I had him in the 30's." But for an NFL team, particularly one where he could be an impact player at a position of need, they're just thinking, "This player excites us more than anyone else on our board, let's take him now instead of hoping he doesn't fall."

I don't know. I'm just seeing a lot of, "There were so many prospects I had ranked higher!"-types of responses, and I think the fact that we are basically making ranking lists of players we think have the best chance of being successful pros, the perspective of a coach or GM considering which guy they're going to draft is just a whole different animal.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by Caddy

Why would I be pissed off? My team didn't draft Bruce Irvin.

Also love how OP asked what YOU think and then everyone immediately goes, what you think is wrong. What the pro scouts think is all that matters. Don't ask what people think if you don't want personal opinions.

We're getting into flame territory. I wasn't pissed off, I didn't think you were, either, and was just fanning the fire a little when I saw an ember. Now for a little water:

My point, aside from flaming, is to simply point out that people who have watched a lot of Seahawks games and are familiar with Pete Carroll see this as a much better fit than people who don't, and I'm pointing out the significance of that. Yeah, it's a thread asking for everyone's opinion on a pick. It's also the only thread of its kind on the front page. So when you get people arguing about it, is this really surprising to you? It's there because its controversial. If you don't want to see why some people are arguing that this is a good pick, why scroll down the page beyond the poll? Or is it just that you want to read posts written by people who think it's a bad pick?

Originally Posted by WCH

Yeah, I agree. The Appeal to Authority arguments are getting a bit out of hand now that the Draft is over.

It's not an appeal to authority argument to justify the pick. If anything, it's just saying, "Huh, I didn't realize they were that set on him." It's a pick that was surprising because of the way draftniks rank players, but makes more sense than it appears at first glance if you look into the kind of personnel the team already has and what the team's coaches want to do. It's a controversial thread, and I follow the team that picked the player. Out of all the topics I might want to post about, this is one where I know a bit more about the situation than maybe a lot of people who are talking about it. And... this is a forum.

[Caddy]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

We're getting into flame territory. I wasn't pissed off, I didn't think you were, either, and was just fanning the fire a little when I saw an ember. Now for a little water:

My point, aside from flaming, is to simply point out that people who have watched a lot of Seahawks games and are familiar with Pete Carroll see this as a much better fit than people who don't, and I'm pointing out the significance of that. Yeah, it's a thread asking for everyone's opinion on a pick. It's also the only thread of its kind on the front page. So when you get people arguing about it, is this really surprising to you? It's there because its controversial. If you don't want to see why some people are arguing that this is a good pick, why scroll down the page beyond the poll? Or is it just that you want to read posts written by people who think it's a bad pick?



It's not an appeal to authority argument to justify the pick. If anything, it's just saying, "Huh, I didn't realize they were that set on him." It's a pick that was surprising because of the way draftniks rank players, but makes more sense than it appears at first glance if you look into the kind of personnel the team already has and what the team's coaches want to do. It's a controversial thread, and I follow the team that picked the player. Out of all the topics I might want to post about, this is one where I know a bit more about the situation than maybe a lot of people who are talking about it. And... this is a forum.

I like watching Seahawks fans defend the pick.

[superfly69]

Originally Posted by Monomach

Shane's got this:



...and it's pretty epic.

This was awesome....

[superfly69]

Originally Posted by Caddy

I like watching Seahawks fans defend the pick.

There is no defending Bruce Irvin at #15. At #25 you would have a peanut size of an argument. At #15...No.

[LonghornsLegend]

I can't get Everette Brown out of my head when I see him.

[gpngc]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...headline_stack

[703SKINS202]

Originally Posted by gpngc

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...headline_stack

That makes me happy.

[Matthew Jones]

#15 was a little bit early but I love the fit in Seattle's defense and I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being a dynamic edge rusher for the Seahawks, so I can't criticize the pick too much. I did think Coples would be a better value though.

[Caddy]

Originally Posted by 703SKINS202

That makes me happy.

I've seen other reports saying they wouldn't have taken him if he was on the board at #16, so take that story with a grain of salt.

[GoRavens]

Not a bad pick.
If Seattle uses his talents correctly, he could easily be a big time passrusher.
Of course, we were all shocked. But apparently teams had a first round grade on him the entire time.
Pete Carroll must have a good plan in mind: With added muscle mass, a more physically aquired demenor and mmore consistent aggressiveness, Irvin will flourish.
But if injured, and used incorrectly, and poor work habits; he'll become a bust.
Irvin is a stud though. so he'll be just peachy doin work on QBs

[TACKLE]

Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend

I can't get Everette Brown out of my head when I see him.

As someone who loved Everette Brown (his spin move was nasty), he wasn't even close to being in the same level athletically as Bruce. Totally different caliber athlete.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

This just sounds like a person who doesn't know a whole lot about Pete Carroll or the Seahawks defense, or Bruce Irvin for that matter. Anyone can do a google search and see that he's been arrested. He's not a huge financial risk because of restructuring, and he's a perfect fit for what we want to do. People can dis it all they want; if you look in Seahawks team forums you see the fans are excited after watching the tape and digging a little deeper. The same fans were pissed when we took Carpenter last year - the positive responses you're hearing aren't just bandwagon fans cheering whoever their team picks.

Like fans know a good pick when they see one. Of course, he has talent and certainly speed but he is as raw as a prospect can get, has a criminal past, played part time for his college team. He is the very definition of a workout warrior who will either bust or produce but at #15, that is a pretty high risk IMO. Round 2, I can see the risk vs reward principal but at #15, it is just not worth it when you can get a pretty solid pro prospect who carries minimal risk.

Personally, I like Carroll so I hope it works out for him but I see absolutely no way he can justify this pick at #15.

[Mufasa]

I think it was a bad move, but it could work out. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a good pass rush specialist. But I also wouldn't be surprised if he was out of the league in 3 years. That's someone you take around 45, not 15.

[tjsunstein]

Irvin won't be out of the league in 3 years because it might take him just that to learn the ins and out of the position that he wasnt coached. He's extremely raw, people need to understand that.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

Originally Posted by gpngc

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...headline_stack

One general manager called Irvin the "hottest player in the draft."

[Stubbs]

Originally Posted by nepg

I like Bruce Irvin, I just hate him for the Seahawks. They've been so bad at the draft in recent years... They had two perfect scheme fits who were potential Top 10 picks sitting right there with Coples & Ingram and they take a guy who doesn't have a position on a good team, nevermind a bad team that needs basic players to fill basic positions.

I don't know about that.. So far in 2 drafts of the Pete Carroll/ John Schneider era we've gotten 4 pro bowl talents in:

Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, Richard Sherman (Pro bowl talent) and Russell Okung (Pro bowl talent when healthy)

2 solid starters in:

KJ Wright and Doug Baldwin (UDFA)

4 early draft picks that have flashed potential, too early to give up on in:

Golden Tate, Walter Thurmond, James Carpenter and John Moffit.

They've been far from a bad drafting team.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

Originally Posted by Stubbs

I don't know about that.. So far in 2 drafts of the Pete Carroll/ John Schneider era we've gotten 4 pro bowl talents in:

Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, Richard Sherman (Pro bowl talent) and Russell Okung (Pro bowl talent when healthy)

2 solid starters in:

KJ Wright and Doug Baldwin (UDFA)

4 early draft picks that have flashed potential, too early to give up on in:

Golden Tate, Walter Thurmond, James Carpenter and John Moffit.

They've been far from a bad drafting team.

I can't for the life of me understand what they are doing at QB. In two years they have signed Tarvaris Jackson and Matt Flynn, and used two third round picks on Charlie Whitehurst and now Russell Wilson. Out of all 4, the only one I can understand is Flynn.

Tarvaris is bad, everyone knew that. The Charlie Whitehurst experiment was a miserable failure. Wilson, while talented, is far morel likely to be a solid backup like Seneca Wallace than the next Drew Brees. Flynn showed something, but evaluating from what will, in all likelihood, be the best game of his career is tough. Still, he's probably the best of the bunch.

I'll agree that they've made some good moves recently, but they've made plenty of bad ones too.

[OzTitan]

"Reach" and "steal" are terms used by the draft following masses to describe picks relative to how they, or popular opinion, ranked the player's value pre-draft.

Whether or not a pick could be labelled the same when using the reference of actual team rankings is another matter, and far more relevant. Unfortunately it's also very hard to know this in any clear sense.

Some picks are very obvious reaches but I tend to think these are actually quite rare in the NFL. To me, if a guy you want to pick probably won't be there the next time you pick, you:

1 - Try and trade down to achieve better value.
2 - If this isn't very easy to accomplish with low risk, just take the damn player.

With rookies now costing so much less than before, it's hardly about where you took the player anymore (if it ever really was, which I don't think it really was) - it's much more about whether your interest in the player was smart at all, regardless of placement.

[703SKINS202]

Originally Posted by OzTitan

"Reach" and "steal" are terms used by the draft following masses to describe picks relative to how they, or popular opinion, ranked the player's value pre-draft.

Whether or not a pick could be labelled the same when using the reference of actual team rankings is another matter, and far more relevant. Unfortunately it's also very hard to know this in any clear sense.

Some picks are very obvious reaches but I tend to think these are actually quite rare in the NFL. To me, if a guy you want to pick probably won't be there the next time you pick, you:

1 - Try and trade down to achieve better value.
2 - If this isn't very easy to accomplish with low risk, just take the damn player.

With rookies now costing so much less than before, it's hardly about where you took the player anymore (if it ever really was, which I don't think it really was) - it's much more about whether your interest in the player was smart at all, regardless of placement.

Agreed.

It's the same reason why I'll laugh when Ryan Matthews goes before Drew Brees in my fantasy draft.

[K Train]

i think they were able to trade down a few spots and still get their guy

general consensus is he was going to be picked soon anyway, i think they went about it right....and it kept him off the jets.

i do think hes a bad fit for them and will probably fail. Seattle is going to be the place where linebackers go to die. First curry and now irvin....maybe he'll be good with another team in a few year lol