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Old 04-23-2013, 08:06 PM    (permalink
Rev Bolyard
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Originally Posted by chrlopez1 View Post
I hope it goes like ths, but the more we get closer u can separate the top group with the next tier. I just think and feel that mant teams will not pass on the guards,
I would have said the same thing about DeCastro last season... I certainly think he'll be better than:

#15 Bruce Irvin
#19 Shea McClellin
#20 Kendell Wright
#21 Chandler Jones
#22 Brandon Weeden

Regardless of how good a guard is, team's simply don't value them highly - ESPECIALLY in the first round. Now as a WVU alum, I love me some Bruce Irvin, but I'd put 3 or 4 edge rushers ahead of him in this draft and 6 to 8 in front of McClellin.

Be confident that some team is going to reach like crazy and pick some player.

Here are some examples:
2007
Don't remember who was considered a "reach" that season
#29 First guard taken (Ben Grubbs)
2008
Don't remember who was considered a "reach" that season
#39 First guard taken (Chilo Rachal)
2009
Don't remember who was considered a "reach" that season
#51 First guard taken (Andy Levitre)
2010
#10 DT Tyson Alualu
#17 First guard taken (Mike Iupati)
2011
#12 QB Christian Ponder
#23 First guard taken (Danny Watkins)
2012
#15 DE Bruce Irvin
#19 DE Shea McClellin
#24 First guard taken (David DeCastro)

So there are always reaches and guards - PURE guards that have NO chance at playing tackle - always slip with the exception of Iupati.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:00 PM    (permalink
Rev Bolyard
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Also worth noting, updated ESPN Mock's include:

McShay:
Has Dallas taking Sheldon Richardson

Kiper:
Has Dallas taking Sylester Williams.
Kenny Vacarro goes #22 to the Rams. They took Austin at #16.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
If everybody is gone and it's a choice between Cyprien and Sylvester, I wouldn't count out Williams who might be superb in a Cover 2 system. Safeties in a Cover 2 scheme need to be awfully fast since they are each responsible for half the field so Eric Reid might suit that system better.
Cyprien is faster than Reid.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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From Pauline this morning:


- Right now insiders believe Sylvester Williams/DT/North Carolina looks like the pick for the Dallas Cowboys in round one. This assumes Kenny Vaccaro does not slide to the 18th pick of the draft as the Cowboys are very high on the Texas safety. Right now Iím told Vaccaro could end up with the New Orleans Saints, who own the 15th selection.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rev Bolyard View Post
Mike Mayock has DJ Hayden rated higher than Milliner.
let me defend mayock for a seconhaydend, firstly has great tape and had an incredible workout, and he's 100% clear to play, (although some teams have reportedly taken him off their 1st round board)

milliner has about 4 injuries right now (shoulder, sports hernia, knee and something else i forgot) and b/c he was prepping for the draft he didn't get a chance to rehab. going back to the combine milliner had a hard time catching the football, to be a high first round corner ball skills matter big time. milliner is not an elite cb prospect in the class of peterson or claiborne.

i think mayock sees a playmaking cb with big time measurables to match in hayden and milliner is iffy if he'll even be ready for training camp.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post
Cyprien is faster than Reid.
runs faster or plays faster, and cyprien didn't against high level competition at fiu. i'm not saying reid is better b/c ive been on the record saying reid is just head hunter, but i do think cyprien is going to have adjust to much faster nfl than the sorry sun belt
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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Rumor is the team only has 16 players rated with first round grades, good chance there might only be one or two that might slide to #18
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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runs faster or plays faster, and cyprien didn't against high level competition at fiu. i'm not saying reid is better b/c ive been on the record saying reid is just head hunter, but i do think cyprien is going to have adjust to much faster nfl than the sorry sun belt
Plays faster. Reid may have had a better 40, but it's obvious who's faster on the field.

One of the best games Cyprien played last year was against Louisville. Speed stood out.

Also stood out at the Senior Bowl. His play didn't dip when he went up against competition above what the Sun Belt offers.

Greg Cosell, who watches more film than anyone, likened Cyprien's movement as a single-high safety to that of Ed Reed.

If Cyprien busts, it won't be because of his speed.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
That's a good point. Fast safeties matter even moreso for us.

I'm really hoping we land Earl Wolff in the mid rounds. He's better than people give him credit for. Fast and plays fast. His range and pursuit amaze me.
It is interesting that Michael Irvin doing a mock draft on NFL Network late last night, actually selected Reid so maybe I'm not far off the mark.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:10 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post
From Pauline this morning:


- Right now insiders believe Sylvester Williams/DT/North Carolina looks like the pick for the Dallas Cowboys in round one. This assumes Kenny Vaccaro does not slide to the 18th pick of the draft as the Cowboys are very high on the Texas safety. Right now Iím told Vaccaro could end up with the New Orleans Saints, who own the 15th selection.
Gee, I might be right on this one as well.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:35 AM    (permalink
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I think the pick is going to be Sly or Reid.

I'd be ok with Sly, I'll hate Reid.

I'm certain Cyprien will still be on the board and the team will undoubtedly take either Sly or Reid ahead of him which is disappointing. The Bengals will snatch him and Zimmer will have one of the top safety duo's in the league along with Seattle and Tampa.

If it's Sly, I can only hope Elam falls.
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Old 04-24-2013, 05:24 AM    (permalink
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No, on selecting Williams or Reid at #18
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post
From Pauline this morning:


- Right now insiders believe Sylvester Williams/DT/North Carolina looks like the pick for the Dallas Cowboys in round one. This assumes Kenny Vaccaro does not slide to the 18th pick of the draft as the Cowboys are very high on the Texas safety. Right now Iím told Vaccaro could end up with the New Orleans Saints, who own the 15th selection.

I need to prepare myself for this pick. Too many times I have gone into the draft dead set on certain players or positions and I get heart broken, so I may as well cave on a DT going. I mean, if we can't get Richardson or Floyd I don't want to take DT. I really, really wanna move back as it seems like our likely picks will be gone.


I'll probably be the only one excited about Reid if we take him there but I don't mind throwing a party on my own Plus as long as we have had terrible Safety play, as long as we have had balls thrown over our Safeties head, as long as it's been we've had JAGS back there and numerous darts at the board of 3rd-UDFA I wouldn't hate Reid, Cyprien, or Elam there.


Would I love any of the 3? No. Obviously I like Reid the most and more then most here, but I'd take any of those 3 at 18 over any DT not named Floyd or Moore. It's just a glaring weak spot and look at who we play in the division, we need to infuse some talent at the position so I'd be able to get on board with it.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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I need to prepare myself for this pick. Too many times I have gone into the draft dead set on certain players or positions and I get heart broken, so I may as well cave on a DT going. I mean, if we can't get Richardson or Floyd I don't want to take DT. I really, really wanna move back as it seems like our likely picks will be gone.


I'll probably be the only one excited about Reid if we take him there but I don't mind throwing a party on my own Plus as long as we have had terrible Safety play, as long as we have had balls thrown over our Safeties head, as long as it's been we've had JAGS back there and numerous darts at the board of 3rd-UDFA I wouldn't hate Reid, Cyprien, or Elam there.


Would I love any of the 3? No. Obviously I like Reid the most and more then most here, but I'd take any of those 3 at 18 over any DT not named Floyd or Moore. It's just a glaring weak spot and look at who we play in the division, we need to infuse some talent at the position so I'd be able to get on board with it.
I have a love for Reid since I first saw him play 2 years ago. I thought at the time, he was a sure fire 1st rounder. However, obviously, he, like a lot of LSU prospects, had a terrible last season but somebody must see something in him since he is moving up draft boards at a rapid place.

I'm kind of wondering what's going on at LSU, so many guys declared after having poor seasons, it makes you wonder.

However, I'm also high on Sylvester Williams, so I wouldn't be disappointed either way.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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What do people like about Sly? I can't wrap my head around it. He looks like a 2nd rounder at best to me.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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What do people like about Sly? I can't wrap my head around it. He looks like a 2nd rounder at best to me.
Just my opinion, but I though he looked solid at the Senior Bowl practices and his Combine performance was very decent. I also think he can be very effective in a Cover 2 scheme.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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What do people like about Sly? I can't wrap my head around it. He looks like a 2nd rounder at best to me.
Another knock I have on sly is that he will turn 25 during the season. If we draft him, we'll be drafting a guy that will be almost 30 by the time his rookie contract is up.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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What do people like about Sly? I can't wrap my head around it. He looks like a 2nd rounder at best to me.
Sly is all about upside, his explosion off the snap is excellent for his size (6'3 315) and when he digs is he is a pretty good anchor. I think he translates to a 1 tech in our scheme because of his ability to take on or split C/G combo blocks. At this point he is limited in pass rush moves although he has a very nice swim move that is hard to stop if he gets a step on the lineman.

Problem is what do you do if he is selected in the first round, move Ratliff to three tech?
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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What do people like about Sly? I can't wrap my head around it. He looks like a 2nd rounder at best to me.
Why do you say this? I've watched a good bit of video on him and I really like what I see. Granted I think I like him at 24-32 and not at 18.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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To put it as simply as I can... Fluker is just not the greatest fit as a ZBS lineman. Could be a monster in a traditional power scheme though. That's why I think the rumors exist that some team would take him high. I'm really not gonna try to fool myself on him just because he's big. If that's all that mattered to us, then there's no reason for us to value Cooper in Round 1 either. Heck, Alvin Bailey in Round 4 works if you just want an SEC tested guy with size.

If we're looking for nimble footed athletes on the OL with great change of direction, ability to mirror, who can redirect or quickly get to the second level... Fluker is totally out of the question.

If you just want to plow forward, Fluker is your guy, if you can accept the occassional sack from speed rusherzzz.

For me, I want a syphony along the OL. I want all the peices to work together in harmony. If someone isn't in tune with the rest of the group because he's not built for it then forget it. I'm not interested. I don't deny that he's rated high, but his rating is irrelevant to me if he doesn't fit.


I think you're underrating Fluker and his ability once again. I'm not sure why you think his fit as a zone blocking lineman when literally 99% of the runs that Bama runs are out of the spread and zone blocking? I mean literally, all you see is Lacy getting handoffs in zone read plays, they look like the Texans out there. Even in reading up on them they said what I thought it looked like when I watched Lacy:


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When it is carried out well from there, itís something to behold. Just ask Georgiaís defense. Alabama ran inside zone running plays repeatedly in the SEC Championship Game, and 350 rushing yards later, the Crimson Tide was off and running to another BCS Championship Game.
http://www.al.com/alabamafootball/in...e_story_a.html


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The name is what it is. You have a zone to block instead of having a man. If every scheme was just a man scheme and a defense started slanting and blitzing and doing all kinds of stuff, itíd be very difficult to execute your blocks. The zone takes the guess work out of it and solves your problems with technique and footwork and hand placement and all of that working in unison with the guy working next to you. Youíve got to have two people working together. Their footworkís got to be very much in sync.

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Itís a scheme. Itís a concept. You can have play-action off the inside zone. You can line up in the same exact formation and run the outside zone. The difference between inside zone and outside zone is just your aiming point and footwork. Youíre still trying to accomplish the same thing. The backs end up going a little wider. As an offensive lineman, youíre aiming for the defender a little wider for leverage. What youíre trying to accomplish is the same thing. We run the zone out of several formations, but you canít always tell if itís inside zone or outside zone. Youíve got to read linemen and read running backs. Itís definitely not a play. There are many variations, formations. Thereís a lot of stuff you can do out of it.


It actually helped me understand a little more of what they teach their lineman and went into more depth there, but my thing is, I can't understand why people think Fluker is such a god awful fit in a scheme he ran consistently in College? I mean it isn't like he struggled, put on the tape and you see him down field constantly, he's got power in the box but I think that gets confused as to that's all he is able to do. I think he can and will be a good RT or Guard, supposedly Tennessee is looking at him as a Guard prospect which is the reason I wanted him, you can play him at either spot and we need help at both.


Of course if you put him man to man against a speed rusher like Von Miller he'll struggle, but everyone would. I just think he isn't given enough credit for him well he does move in space and how comfortable he is in a zone scheme and even though he'll be long gone we would be crazy to not take him at 18 if he were there IMO. He moves in space better then Clabo does and we have already shown interest in him.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by leroyisgod View Post
Why do you say this? I've watched a good bit of video on him and I really like what I see. Granted I think I like him at 24-32 and not at 18.
For one, I'm against drafting a DT unless he is an elite guy who has fallen to us. If that is Star, Richardson, Floyd... then I'd be game. But 18 is the highest Sly would go and that doesn't sit well with me. If Sly is the guy I'm aiming for then a trade down is the only way that sits well with me. ...AND Datone Jones better be off the board. I like him a TON better once we start talking about the second tier DTs.

Between Ratliff, Hatcher, Lissemore, Crawford (who I could see getting time at 3 tech)... I don't need a 1st rounder. Sure, the future concern is there, but I'm more worried about our immediate needs on the OL and S.
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Old 04-24-2013, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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For one, I'm against drafting a DT unless he is an elite guy who has fallen to us. If that is Star, Richardson, Floyd... then I'd be game. But 18 is the highest Sly would go and that doesn't sit well with me. If Sly is the guy I'm aiming for then a trade down is the only way that sits well with me. ...AND Datone Jones better be off the board. I like him a TON better once we start talking about the second tier DTs.

Between Ratliff, Hatcher, Lissemore, Crawford (who I could see getting time at 3 tech)... I don't need a 1st rounder. Sure, the future concern is there, but I'm more worried about our immediate needs on the OL and S.
We can address OL in round 2. And at Safety, I don't see anyone worthy of that 18 pick.

DT wise, half of our DT's are getting long in the tooth. One of the keys to this Dallas 2 defense is the DT position. Don't you think it's time we stop ignoring our DL?
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Old 04-24-2013, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
For one, I'm against drafting a DT unless he is an elite guy who has fallen to us. If that is Star, Richardson, Floyd... then I'd be game. But 18 is the highest Sly would go and that doesn't sit well with me. If Sly is the guy I'm aiming for then a trade down is the only way that sits well with me. ...AND Datone Jones better be off the board. I like him a TON better once we start talking about the second tier DTs.

Between Ratliff, Hatcher, Lissemore, Crawford (who I could see getting time at 3 tech)... I don't need a 1st rounder. Sure, the future concern is there, but I'm more worried about our immediate needs on the OL and S.
Datone Jones is a 5 tech in a 3-4 defense. Not sure he's a good fit for a 4-3 at all.

If we're trading down and still targeting a DT (and Sylvester Williams is gone) then I'd opt for Short. Yeah, he disappears, but what defensive tackle doesn't? I think these rumors of him being lazy are greatly exaggerated otherwise he wouldn't have been a 2 time team captain.

Further, if we're going to trade down (say with the Vikings) then I think we need to target one of either Pugh or Long (though I don't care for each) to slide inside to guard in the ZBS.
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Old 04-24-2013, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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Datone Jones is a 5 tech in a 3-4 defense. Not sure he's a good fit for a 4-3 at all.

If we're trading down and still targeting a DT (and Sylvester Williams is gone) then I'd opt for Short. Yeah, he disappears, but what defensive tackle doesn't? I think these rumors of him being lazy are greatly exaggerated otherwise he wouldn't have been a 2 time team captain.

Further, if we're going to trade down (say with the Vikings) then I think we need to target one of either Pugh or Long (though I don't care for each) to slide inside to guard in the ZBS.
I disagree with that on Jones. Anyone who can whip Fisher's butt multiple times one on one can do more than just set an edge...
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Old 04-24-2013, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
I think you're underrating Fluker and his ability once again. I'm not sure why you think his fit as a zone blocking lineman when literally 99% of the runs that Bama runs are out of the spread and zone blocking? I mean literally, all you see is Lacy getting handoffs in zone read plays, they look like the Texans out there. Even in reading up on them they said what I thought it looked like when I watched Lacy:



http://www.al.com/alabamafootball/in...e_story_a.html









It actually helped me understand a little more of what they teach their lineman and went into more depth there, but my thing is, I can't understand why people think Fluker is such a god awful fit in a scheme he ran consistently in College? I mean it isn't like he struggled, put on the tape and you see him down field constantly, he's got power in the box but I think that gets confused as to that's all he is able to do. I think he can and will be a good RT or Guard, supposedly Tennessee is looking at him as a Guard prospect which is the reason I wanted him, you can play him at either spot and we need help at both.


Of course if you put him man to man against a speed rusher like Von Miller he'll struggle, but everyone would. I just think he isn't given enough credit for him well he does move in space and how comfortable he is in a zone scheme and even though he'll be long gone we would be crazy to not take him at 18 if he were there IMO. He moves in space better then Clabo does and we have already shown interest in him.
I'm sure some team like the Chargers, Bears, Giants or Vikings will take Fluker and he will have a nice career playing for them in a man scheme dominant system. But a team like Denver, Green Bay, Washington, Houston... I don't think they give him a hard look at all.

The same players can be used in both schemes. So I wouldn't be killing myself if we drafted Fluker. Much better pick than Sly. ugh. However, bigger more physical offensive lineman are better suited for man-to-man schemes where it's one on one. Quicker offensive lineman are more suited for the zone blocking scheme, where quickness is the bigger factor in success. In essence the smaller and quicker the lineman the better it is to run a zone scheme and the bigger and slower your lineman, it's probably a safer bet to go to a man scheme. This is general common knowledge.

So while I can see your point about Fluker playing zone at Bama, and Bama having a lot of success therefore pointing to the idea that Fluker is a good ZBS OL.... I also need to factor in just how good they were as a team and as a line. The remain, real treasure of their OL was Barrett Jones. I probably can't state that enough about how strongly I feel about his impact for that Bama team. Thought he was the brains of their entire operation and on the field better than Warmack many times. Let's not kid around, I do agree that their OL was beastly, and Fluker was a part of that, but Fluker was also a distant 4th best player on that OL, imo. He had his struggles and as I recall, during the season, the pulse of his draft stock was somewhere around the 3rd round value.

The Senior Bowl weigh-in was the biggest booster to his stock. He didn't even participate in drills or the game. The simple weigh-in was so impressive that even I got horny for him (at guard)! But the combine brought me back to reality. He's just not an impressive athlete. An impressive gorilla sized human being with no body fat that makes you think anything is possible! But seeing him run through drills was excrutiatingly painful for me to watch.

I could be siding on the side of caution too much, but for our new ZBS, I have other guys in mind that I simply like better. Just a preference thing, I guess. I think he'll be successful, but he instilled enough doubt in my during the season and during the combine.
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