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Old 05-03-2012, 08:27 PM    (permalink
Bixby (Thumper)
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Originally Posted by BigBanger View Post
I used to think Welker was overrated too. Then I realized that a slot WR doing what he does has, well, never been done before. He doesn't have to be 6'5'' and 230 pounds to be an elite player. Does Brady make him better than he might be? Maybe, but can you hold that against him? You look at his production since he's been in New England and its pretty impressive. He also forces opposing defenses to play their best CB in the nickel, and if a defense doesn't have a top CB that can do that, then the Patriots exploit it. He is a game changer. Not the best receiving weapon on his team, but damn good one. And he's coming off a career year.

How is Clady overrated?
Welker - Good, reliable slot receiver but he isn't dynamic and he won't stretch a defense. In 2009 and 2010, he had 15 20+ yard catches combined. COMBINED. He's not special, he's a volume receiver. And then when teams don't have to focus on him (Randy Moss, Gronk), he takes advantage. He's a #2 receiver. Not a threat to defenses. He doesn't present any mismatches on the outside. He doesn't influence safeties, thats all on Gronk now days. Maybe I'm crazy but I think top receivers are guys who make plays, can win on the outside and be dynamic playmakers as opposed to high usage possession receivers.

How is Clady overrated? He isn't that good? 20 sacks, 13 QB hits and 81 QB pressures allowed over the past three years. 40th in pass blocking efficiency last year, 13th and 21st in 2010 and 2009. He's a decent pass protector despite really good tools and he's a pretty ineffective run blocker. Give me Jake Long, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Andrew Whitworth, Joe Thomas, Duane Brown, Michael Roos, Jared Gaither, Jason Peters, Jordan Gross and Trent Williams over Clady. Toss him in the fringe top 10 pile with Eugene Monroe and Joe Staley.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:29 PM    (permalink
jackalope
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Originally Posted by ChiFan24 View Post
QB
1. Tom Brady
2. Aaron Rodgers - I want to put him #1, but I need more of a track record
3. Drew Brees
4. Ben Roethlisberger
5. Eli Manning - Rounds out the elite tear. Rivers falls to #6 and no longer elite in my book
If you want to say that Brady is #1, that's fine, but this is a really weak argument. Four impressive seasons starting, a Super Bowl MVP, last year's regular season MVP with a 45/6 TD/INT ratio... Are you really not convinced that he's the real deal?
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:58 PM    (permalink
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CJ getting no love. I wish he had such a diverse offense to get pressure off him.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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If you want to say that Brady is #1, that's fine, but this is a really weak argument. Four impressive seasons starting, a Super Bowl MVP, last year's regular season MVP with a 45/6 TD/INT ratio... Are you really not convinced that he's the real deal?
For God's sake. Fine. He's #1, I don't care that much. Could there possibly be a more hair splitting argument than Brady vs. Rodgers?

Brady's been awesome for 10 years. Rodgers has been awesome for 4. They're clearly the top 2 players in the NFL, for my money. I need something to separate the two, so I chose the longer track record and the guy that just played in the super bowl.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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Welker - Good, reliable slot receiver but he isn't dynamic and he won't stretch a defense. In 2009 and 2010, he had 15 20+ yard catches combined. COMBINED. He's not special, he's a volume receiver. And then when teams don't have to focus on him (Randy Moss, Gronk), he takes advantage. He's a #2 receiver. Not a threat to defenses. He doesn't present any mismatches on the outside. He doesn't influence safeties, thats all on Gronk now days. Maybe I'm crazy but I think top receivers are guys who make plays, can win on the outside and be dynamic playmakers as opposed to high usage possession receivers.

How is Clady overrated? He isn't that good? 20 sacks, 13 QB hits and 81 QB pressures allowed over the past three years. 40th in pass blocking efficiency last year, 13th and 21st in 2010 and 2009. He's a decent pass protector despite really good tools and he's a pretty ineffective run blocker. Give me Jake Long, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Andrew Whitworth, Joe Thomas, Duane Brown, Michael Roos, Jared Gaither, Jason Peters, Jordan Gross and Trent Williams over Clady. Toss him in the fringe top 10 pile with Eugene Monroe and Joe Staley.

Welker doesn't have to influence safeties, even though I think he does. Safeties are always coming down in the box to defend him in press coverage, but it usually doesn't work. Very few CBs can cover him. Its that simple. But I would agree, he isn't special. He's simply incredibly productive. Before last season I was saying the same thing about him. I don't know why I had a change of heart, but I thought 2011 was a great year for him, by far his best.

I don't know what pass blocking efficency means or where I would even find that kind of stat, but there were not 39 better pass protectors in the NFL last season. There just wasn't. And he's coming off the best season of his career in my opinion (if he had a QB like Cutler who got rid of the ball (while he (Cutler) was in Denver) in about .5 seconds every single play then he'd probably have had allowed .5 sacks again). So I don't know how he could be ranked that low this past season, yet be considered a better OT the two years prior, when he certainly wasn't, according to these pass blocking stats.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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For God's sake. Fine. He's #1, I don't care that much. Could there possibly be a more hair splitting argument than Brady vs. Rodgers?

Brady's been awesome for 10 years. Rodgers has been awesome for 4. They're clearly the top 2 players in the NFL, for my money. I need something to separate the two, so I chose the longer track record and the guy that just played in the super bowl.
I wasn't saying you were wrong. I was just saying you should at least use a legitimate justification.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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Realizing this: Wes Welker, Tyron Smith, Jake Long and Ryan Clady are very overrated.
add bulaga to that list
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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If APO and Charles are injury scratches, why are McFadden, Forte and Jackson on the list. Not that I'm saying they aren't all talented. I actually like your list more but I'd put McFadden at #1 if he could stay healthy. Kubiak has probably never had a RB who didn't gain a 1000 yards, he is some sort of genius at having a running attack so Foster might not do as well with any other team. Oh yeah, where is the toll showing on MJD
AP and Charles injuries are more severe. MJD nagging injuries adding up.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:19 AM    (permalink
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Darren McFadden is not the 3rd best runningback. He's become so overrated after like 1 1/2 good seasons. It should say something that the Raiders don't miss a beat when Michael Bush was in.
I've been a McFadden "hater" since he was drafted but that one and half seasons was beyond impressive. He's healthy now, so he's 3rd. Mike Bush is underrated ;
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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Ryan Clady gave up 9 sacks last year and 7 holding call which could of made that 9 sacks more if he didn't hold.
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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he was also blocking for a fullback as a quarterback who had no pocket presence. Just saying
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Old 05-05-2012, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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People still consider Clady a top 3-4 tackle?
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Old 05-05-2012, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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No. He's a top 10 guy to me.
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Old 05-05-2012, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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People still consider Clady a top 3-4 tackle?
You better believe it.
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Old 05-05-2012, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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QB

1. Peyton Manning
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Drew Brees
4. Tom Brady
5. Matthew Stafford

NOTE: I understand the concern over Peyton's ability to bounce back from neck issues but until he stops being the most important player in football, Peyton will be number one in my book. He just brings things to the table nobody else can offer. The Colts were nothing short of abysmal without him. Also, Eli is phenomenal but I just can't get overlook Stafford's emergence. 5,000 yards and 40 touchdowns in a season is stellar, doing it in your first full season as a starter is absolutely incredible. His arm strength is just below a SAM Turret.

RB

1. Maurice Jones-Drew
2. Arian Foster
3. Ray Rice
4. Adrian Peterson
5. Chris Johnson

NOTE: MJD is able to produce despite being the only player in Jacksonville that opposing defenses have to gameplan for; to me that separates him from everyone else in the league. CJ2K is a homer pick, I hope he can recapture the explosiveness we saw in 2009.

FB

1. Vonta Leach
2. Marcel Reece
3. Ovie Mughelli
4. Jed Collins
5. Le'Ron McClain

NOTE: It would be nice if we had some FB stats to read somewhere.

WR

1. Calvin Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Andre Johnson
4. Roddy White
5. Wes Welker

NOTE: The top three are pretty obvious, it just depends in what order. I'm kinda surprised by the lack of Roddy White in this thread. He has 5 straight seasons with at least 80 catches, 1000 yards and 6 touchdowns - I think only Fitzgerald can match that kind of consistency. I'm putting Welker on here because I can't overlook his ridiculous reception totals. Nicks is obviously a more complete receiver but he doesn't have the staggering numbers of Welker, yet. AJ Green will probably be in consideration for next year's list, too.

TE

1. Rob Gronkowski
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Vernon Davis
4. Jason Witten
5. Tony Gonzalez

NOTE: Gronk is just a biblical beast of a tight end. I can't think of another tight end in recent memory that had such a great combination of blocking and receiving. Gonzalez is on here because he's the GOAT at the position and still productive.

LT

1. Joe Thomas
2. Jason Peters
3. Jake Long
4. Duane Brown
5. Michael Roos

NOTE: I know Peters is hurt but he's so damn good I can't leave him off.

LG

1. Carl Nicks
2. Logan Mankins
3. Evan Mathis
4. Mike Iupati
5. Andy Levitre

NOTE: I don't care if the Saints didn't pursue Nicks harder, the guy can block trucks.

C

1. Nick Mangold
2. Chris Myers
3. Scott Wells
4. Eric Wood
5. Ryan Kalil

RG

1. Jahri Evans
2. Josh Sitton
3. Marshal Yanda
4. Harvey Dahl
5. Brian Waters

RT

1. David Stewart
2. Eric Winston
3. Tyron Smith
4. Bryan Bulaga
5. Tyson Clabo

NOTE: Stewart is a bit of a homer pick but there is no denying he is elite.
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The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 05-05-2012, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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The issue with Roddy last year was drops. He dropped a couple game winning balls and was really never consistent over the year. Hopefully he returns to form this season, because he was a beast before. An improved Julio and Roddy White showing up again would make our offense pretty killer.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Even if Roddy dropped some important catches, he still caught more than anybody else in the NFC. I understand circumstance and "when it matters" and all that, but he's still a damn fine receiver.
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The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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Wes Welker has to be considered a top 10 guy.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Even if Roddy dropped some important catches, he still caught more than anybody else in the NFC. I understand circumstance and "when it matters" and all that, but he's still a damn fine receiver.
I'd have to look at the stats but I'd be willing to bet he was targeted much more as well. Hell, Julio Jones when healthy last year looked better than Roddy. It wasn't just a couple balls. Still, I'd consider Roddy top 10 right now and if he works hard this offseason I have no doubt he'll return to '08-10 form.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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i'd put clady, as mentioned, somewhere between 4-8ish, probably. he's a step below the elite guys.
Isn't top 5 elite?
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Isn't top 5 elite?
Is Eli, big Ben, Stafford, rivers or whoever is your#5 QB as good as Brady, Rodgers, Peyton and Brees?
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-05-2012, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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People still think Michael Bush is underated? He handled the load for a grand total of four games and then played like dogshit. And to bears fans, just pray to god they don't keep him in on passing downs, Cutler will have his head taken off.
He's good with ball security though, I'll give him that.
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:19 AM    (permalink
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RG

1. Jahri Evans
2. Harvey Dahl
3. Marshal Yanda
4. Jake Scott
5. Brian Waters
Why in God's name do you have Jake Scott in your Top 5, BB?
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Damn Ke$ha is sexy.
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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I think Curtis Painter being bottom 3 players ever contributed a lot to the Colts lack of success too. Put Painter at the helm of NO and I bet he struggles to average 150 yards of total offense. Peyton is good but no way is he better than Brees, Brady, Rodgers now if he wasn't before... I think he's a bit overrated at this point if you have him Top 3. He didn't play a whole season. You can't replace that missed time.
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:34 AM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
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People still think Michael Bush is underated? He handled the load for a grand total of four games and then played like dogshit. And to bears fans, just pray to god they don't keep him in on passing downs, Cutler will have his head taken off.
He's good with ball security though, I'll give him that.
Ah yes, the "he's not on my team anymore so now I think he's terrible" routine. It's a standard practice in the off-season. Bush is a great #2 back.
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