Top 5 of Each Position (Offense)

[Mufasa]

Yeah there really are a ton of very good WRs. It's the strongest the position has ever been 1-25 or so.

[gpngc]

If you in any way shape or form believe Wes Welker is a better receiver than Dez Bryant then I don't know what to tell you. All it would take would be watching one game of each player... wow.

[Cudders]

Originally Posted by gpngc

If you in any way shape or form believe Wes Welker is a better receiver than Dez Bryant then I don't know what to tell you. All it would take would be watching one game of each player... wow.

I don’t think it’s that simple. You’re weighing the measurable side of the equation too much. If measurables were the perfect predictor for NFL success, the Combine would have a flawless track record of evaluating talent, but we know that’s not the case. Yes, Dez is bigger, faster, and stronger than Welker. It’s clear that Dez is the superior specimen. One game can show that much, sure. Being able to run faster and jump higher doesn’t guarantee a superior skill set though. It’s an important part of the evaluation process, but it isn’t the be-all and end-all.

Rankings can be fun to do as fans, but it’s important to keep sight of the fact that there are few absolutes in football. For example, take Dez and Welker. Both have big-time skill sets that allow them to step onto the field and produce at a high level. From an overall talent and tools perspective, Dez has the loftier ceiling. He has shown that he’s better suited to work the perimeter and handle the deeper regions of the passing tree. But Welker has one of the smoothest underneath games in the entire NFL and his other football skills are underrated, too.

Dez would struggle filling Welker’s role in the Patriots’ offense. With the amount of run-and-shoot concepts that New England implements, and the demanding responsibilities bestowed upon Welker in those option route situations, I have a tough time believing that Dez could just step right in there and replicate Welker’s ridiculous production. He’s never demonstrated the kind of rare football aptitude required to do that. We’ve seen talented receivers fail to acclimate themselves in New England before. It’s a taxing offense for wide outs. Most receivers aren’t used to breaking things down and then reacting to that processed information in a split-second. Thinking on the football field prevents people from reaching their full athletic potential. On paper, Dez might have more flash and power in his game, but each hesitant step begins to add up as a snap runs its course.

And Welker would struggle to accomplish what Dez does for Dallas. What makes Welker special are his sharp instincts and mental faculties. An offense predicated on stricter, more defined route concepts marginalizes those qualities to a degree. Freeing himself from coverage with deception and smarts becomes a more difficult challenge on a snap-to-snap basis. Not to mention, the increased perimeter alignments and vertical patterns remove Welker from what he does best, which is busting underneath coverages from the slot.

So, to me, it’s not all that ridiculous to suggest Welker is a better receiver than Dez. Both have unique talents that will shine when utilized in the proper scheme and would fall on a similar tier.

[gpngc]

Originally Posted by Cudders

I don’t think it’s that simple. You’re weighing the measurable side of the equation too much. If measurables were the perfect predictor for NFL success, the Combine would have a flawless track record of evaluating talent, but we know that’s not the case. Yes, Dez is bigger, faster, and stronger than Welker. It’s clear that Dez is the superior specimen. One game can show that much, sure. Being able to run faster and jump higher doesn’t guarantee a superior skill set though. It’s an important part of the evaluation process, but it isn’t the be-all and end-all.

Rankings can be fun to do as fans, but it’s important to keep sight of the fact that there are few absolutes in football. For example, take Dez and Welker. Both have big-time skill sets that allow them to step onto the field and produce at a high level. From an overall talent and tools perspective, Dez has the loftier ceiling. He has shown that he’s better suited to work the perimeter and handle the deeper regions of the passing tree. But Welker has one of the smoothest underneath games in the entire NFL and his other football skills are underrated, too.

Dez would struggle filling Welker’s role in the Patriots’ offense. With the amount of run-and-shoot concepts that New England implements, and the demanding responsibilities bestowed upon Welker in those option route situations, I have a tough time believing that Dez could just step right in there and replicate Welker’s ridiculous production. He’s never demonstrated the kind of rare football aptitude required to do that. We’ve seen talented receivers fail to acclimate themselves in New England before. It’s a taxing offense for wide outs. Most receivers aren’t used to breaking things down and then reacting to that processed information in a split-second. Thinking on the football field prevents people from reaching their full athletic potential. On paper, Dez might have more flash and power in his game, but each hesitant step begins to add up as a snap runs its course.

And Welker would struggle to accomplish what Dez does for Dallas. What makes Welker special are his sharp instincts and mental faculties. An offense predicated on stricter, more defined route concepts marginalizes those qualities to a degree. Freeing himself from coverage with deception and smarts becomes a more difficult challenge on a snap-to-snap basis. Not to mention, the increased perimeter alignments and vertical patterns remove Welker from what he does best, which is busting underneath coverages from the slot.

So, to me, it’s not all that ridiculous to suggest Welker is a better receiver than Dez. Both have unique talents that will shine when utilized in the proper scheme and would fall on a similar tier.

Julian Edleman stepped in for Welker and filled his role just fine. Darren Sproles' role with NO wasn't really much different than Welker's. Option routes, outs and angle routes.

Just like you say, Dez would struggle playing inside in NE, and Welker would struggle (probably mightily) facing top CBs outside in Dallas. My argument is that there a lot more players who could occupy Welker's role and make a similar impact than there are that could win outside like a Dez.

Welker's very good at what he does, and you describe it nicely, but there are a bunch of quick, smart receivers who could do a similar job in that role.

The same cannot be said for outside guys who can consistently win (and score more/more YPC) against top outside DBs and make big plays.

As for Welker vs. Harvin, Harvin's just better in almost every way. He's faster, stronger, better after the catch, has better hands (Welker drops passes but is a volume stat guy), and can actually win on the outside/vertically.

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by gpngc

If you in any way shape or form believe Wes Welker is a better receiver than Dez Bryant then I don't know what to tell you. All it would take would be watching one game of each player... wow.

Dude really? Giants fan, I've seen a lot of Dez and Welker. Over the course the season Welker impacts the game more. Dez may have more visually impressive moments of dominance but over the course of the season the results of Welker's play are much more dominant than what Dez has done so far. Ultimately the results have to speak for themselves and the results are that no receiver works the inside as well as Welker, few are as agile and sudden in their cuts, and few have the intelligence to read coverages as well as he does. Cruz is getting because he's more explosive, but Welker is still King and belongs in the second tier of great WRs.

[bigbluedefense]

This pretty much summarizes the opinions on Welker:

For
Extremely productive, great short area quickness and route runner, difficult to cover even when the focal point of the DBs, best slot WR in the league.

Against
He's not big, he's not athletic, other guys are big and athletic so even though they don't produce like him they are clearly better than him bc they are big and athletic and he's not.

Not every WR needs to be 6 5" and run a 4.4 guys. That doesn't automatically make you a great WR.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by gpngc

Just like you say, Dez would struggle playing inside in NE, and Welker would struggle (probably mightily) facing top CBs outside in Dallas. My argument is that there a lot more players who could occupy Welker's role and make a similar impact than there are that could win outside like a Dez.

yeah, i mean, just think what would happen if welker had to line up opposite revis twice a year, and beat him.

[Bixby (Thumper)]

Originally Posted by njx9

yeah, i mean, just think what would happen if welker had to line up opposite revis twice a year, and beat him.

Yep. 2 receptions for 18 yards when matched up against Revis last year. Beat him like a drum.

[AntoinCD]

Don't forget Dez Bryant and Percy Harvin were both first rounders and Wes Welker wasn't drafted. I don't even need to watch games to know who's better!!!

In all seriousness, I don't understand people who just say that Welker's role can be taken by any smart, quick WR. Why aren't more of them producing like Welker does then?

People said once Randy Moss left and the Pats stopped being able to strecth the field that Welker's production would drop but he had his best year last year with literally no one of note playing outside the hashes who could go vertical.

There still seems to be a real stigma attached to "slot" WRs.

Saying Welker isn't as good as others because he can't play out wide is like saying that Ryan Clady is a better offensive lineman than Carl Nicks because Nicks can't play LT. They are two different positions and require two different skill sets

[Giantsfan1080]

Originally Posted by Bixby

Yep. 2 receptions for 18 yards when matched up against Revis last year. Beat him like a drum.

Where do you find player on player matchups like that?

[Bixby (Thumper)]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Where do you find player on player matchups like that?

I invested 20 bucks in profootballfocus last August as a resource for an Eagles blog I own. Rankings and grades are insane sometimes but good for stats like that.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Don't forget Dez Bryant and Percy Harvin were both first rounders and Wes Welker wasn't drafted. I don't even need to watch games to know who's better!!!

In all seriousness, I don't understand people who just say that Welker's role can be taken by any smart, quick WR. Why aren't more of them producing like Welker does then?

People said once Randy Moss left and the Pats stopped being able to strecth the field that Welker's production would drop but he had his best year last year with literally no one of note playing outside the hashes who could go vertical.

There still seems to be a real stigma attached to "slot" WRs.

Saying Welker isn't as good as others because he can't play out wide is like saying that Ryan Clady is a better offensive lineman than Carl Nicks because Nicks can't play LT. They are two different positions and require two different skill sets

This this and more this.

And please, don't bring up Revis. Revis held Calvin Johnson to 1 catch for 7 yards. ZOMG Calvin suckzzzz right?

Revis shuts everybody down.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by Bixby

I invested 20 bucks in profootballfocus last August as a resource for an Eagles blog I own. Rankings and grades are insane sometimes but good for stats like that.

Weren't you supposed to crawl back in your hole after your idiotic predictions fell flat on their ass last year JBX?

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Bixby

Yep. 2 receptions for 18 yards when matched up against Revis last year. Beat him like a drum.

or 5 for 125 in one game the year before

didn't you make a bet about not coming back after the giants won last year, or are we going to pretend you're not JBCX?

heh, jinx bbd.

[Bixby (Thumper)]

Originally Posted by njx9

or 5 for 125 in one game the year before

didn't you make a bet about not coming back after the giants won last year, or are we going to pretend you're not JBCX?

Except for that didn't happen against Revis. Against Revis in 2010 Welker had 1 reception for 11 yards in two games. Was only targeted twice.

And I swear on whatever you want me to swear on that I have no idea who that guy is. Check the IP addresses. Do whatever. Not me.

[Bixby (Thumper)]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

And please, don't bring up Revis. Revis held Calvin Johnson to 1 catch for 7 yards. ZOMG Calvin suckzzzz right?

That wasn't a shot at Welker. I was correcting NJX because he tried to say that Welker beats Revis and use that as an argument in Welker's favor when it is completely false.

[hockey619]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Weren't you supposed to crawl back in your hole after your idiotic predictions fell flat on their ass last year JBX?

no he wasnt wrong remember? the giants go lucky all the way to through the super bowl and only one because kevin kolb got hurt. hes gunna take over the nfl this year, maybe the nba too as he is just too much awesome to contain in one league.

[Bixby (Thumper)]

Originally Posted by hockey619

no he wasnt wrong remember? the giants go lucky all the way to through the super bowl and only one because kevin kolb got hurt. hes gunna take over the nfl this year, maybe the nba too as he is just too much awesome to contain in one league.

Wait… Do people think that I'm whateverhisnamewas because I said the Giants were lucky in my mock draft? I guess people don't realize how pervasive that idea is amongst Eagles fans. I just asked on twitter (I've got 800+ followers #humblebrag) and eight of the ten answers I've gotten so far have been "Yes".

I think people like you who pretend the Giants weren't lucky are the crazy ones. They came up clutch as hell late in the year against the Jets and Cowboys and they played their asses off against the Packers, Falcons and Patriots. But they were lucky to make the playoffs and they were lucky to beat the 49ers.

They got lucky. But I don't see why this is such a huge freakin deal, I'd like the Eagles to get lucky one of these years. Hell, I'd like to be lucky every single year.

• They're the only team to ever win the superbowl with a negative point differential.

• The Victor Cruz fumble/non-fumble in the Arizona game is a big example of luck. If the refs correctly call that as a fumble the Giants don't even make the playoffs, the Eagles do.

• They fumbled 3 times in the superbowl and recovered them all.

• Kyle Williams. That is all.

• Ahmad Bradshaw's "forward progress" agains the 49ers.

• Brandon Marshall pass interference on a crucial third down.

And that's only the lucky stuff I can recall. Anyone who denies it is crazy pants. The Giants were lucky but it's not like I'm not giving them any credit.

[bigbluedefense]

That's right Eagle fans. Keep crying. Your pain sustains me.

[Santonio10]

I don't think Dez is a slot WR. IMO he needs to be split out wide and should be put in as many one on one situation's as possible. He's a completely different type of receiver than Welker.

[scar988]

only disagreement I have is at QB... I don't think Big Ben is that good... I'd have Rivers or even Stafford ahead of him.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Bixby

I just asked on twitter (I've got 800+ followers #humblebrag) and eight of the ten answers I've gotten so far have been "Yes".

well there's some solid evidence. cool story, jbcx.

[WCH]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

That's right Eagle fans. Keep crying. Your pain sustains me.

Yeah, pretty much this. The Giants are a very legit team, and they were the one team that I really didn't want the Packers to see in playoffs. I think they'll win 12 or 13 games this season.

[gpngc]

Originally Posted by njx9

yeah, i mean, just think what would happen if welker had to line up opposite revis twice a year, and beat him.

On the outside, running comebacks, 9s, deep crosses, 8s, WC outside the hash slants, sluggos, and PoCos? He'd struggle mightily. Dez wouldn't (and didn't).

Welker's probably the best slot receiver in the game. But I don't value that skillset as much as guys who can win outside (many of which on my list can ALSO play the slot effectively at times.

Welker at SE or FL would be below average at best.

[gpngc]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Don't forget Dez Bryant and Percy Harvin were both first rounders and Wes Welker wasn't drafted. I don't even need to watch games to know who's better!!!

In all seriousness, I don't understand people who just say that Welker's role can be taken by any smart, quick WR. Why aren't more of them producing like Welker does then?

People said once Randy Moss left and the Pats stopped being able to strecth the field that Welker's production would drop but he had his best year last year with literally no one of note playing outside the hashes who could go vertical.

There still seems to be a real stigma attached to "slot" WRs.

Saying Welker isn't as good as others because he can't play out wide is like saying that Ryan Clady is a better offensive lineman than Carl Nicks because Nicks can't play LT. They are two different positions and require two different skill sets

Because they don't play in that offense (that sometimes uses Welker/Hernandez as their running game) with Tom freaking Brady at QB. Troy Brown put up similar numbers (moving around more than Welker, yes, but primarily inside complementing Givens, Patten, Branch, Wiggins, Watson, etc.)

Closest comparison would be Darren Sproles who has a comparable QB with Brees. Sproles is a quick, smart receiver (he just does it out of the backfield mostly).

And again, Julian freaking Edleman did what Welker did when he occupied that role.

Also, Amendola caught 85 passes with a not-Tom-Brady-rookie QB, **** OL, and nothing close to a Moss/Gronk threat.

And this year, Rob Gronkowski was the Moss factor. He got vertical up the seam and ran deep flags all the time (Blackburn pick).

Welker's Wayne Chrebet in an ideal situation.