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Old 05-15-2012, 08:51 AM    (permalink
Bixby (Thumper)
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
or 5 for 125 in one game the year before

didn't you make a bet about not coming back after the giants won last year, or are we going to pretend you're not JBCX?
Except for that didn't happen against Revis. Against Revis in 2010 Welker had 1 reception for 11 yards in two games. Was only targeted twice.

And I swear on whatever you want me to swear on that I have no idea who that guy is. Check the IP addresses. Do whatever. Not me.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
And please, don't bring up Revis. Revis held Calvin Johnson to 1 catch for 7 yards. ZOMG Calvin suckzzzz right?
That wasn't a shot at Welker. I was correcting NJX because he tried to say that Welker beats Revis and use that as an argument in Welker's favor when it is completely false.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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Weren't you supposed to crawl back in your hole after your idiotic predictions fell flat on their ass last year JBX?
no he wasnt wrong remember? the giants go lucky all the way to through the super bowl and only one because kevin kolb got hurt. hes gunna take over the nfl this year, maybe the nba too as he is just too much awesome to contain in one league.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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no he wasnt wrong remember? the giants go lucky all the way to through the super bowl and only one because kevin kolb got hurt. hes gunna take over the nfl this year, maybe the nba too as he is just too much awesome to contain in one league.
Wait… Do people think that I'm whateverhisnamewas because I said the Giants were lucky in my mock draft? I guess people don't realize how pervasive that idea is amongst Eagles fans. I just asked on twitter (I've got 800+ followers #humblebrag) and eight of the ten answers I've gotten so far have been "Yes".

I think people like you who pretend the Giants weren't lucky are the crazy ones. They came up clutch as hell late in the year against the Jets and Cowboys and they played their asses off against the Packers, Falcons and Patriots. But they were lucky to make the playoffs and they were lucky to beat the 49ers.

They got lucky. But I don't see why this is such a huge freakin deal, I'd like the Eagles to get lucky one of these years. Hell, I'd like to be lucky every single year.
  • They're the only team to ever win the superbowl with a negative point differential.
  • The Victor Cruz fumble/non-fumble in the Arizona game is a big example of luck. If the refs correctly call that as a fumble the Giants don't even make the playoffs, the Eagles do.
  • They fumbled 3 times in the superbowl and recovered them all.
  • Kyle Williams. That is all.
  • Ahmad Bradshaw's "forward progress" agains the 49ers.
  • Brandon Marshall pass interference on a crucial third down.

And that's only the lucky stuff I can recall. Anyone who denies it is crazy pants. The Giants were lucky but it's not like I'm not giving them any credit.

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Old 05-15-2012, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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That's right Eagle fans. Keep crying. Your pain sustains me.
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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I don't think Dez is a slot WR. IMO he needs to be split out wide and should be put in as many one on one situation's as possible. He's a completely different type of receiver than Welker.
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Old 05-15-2012, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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only disagreement I have is at QB... I don't think Big Ben is that good... I'd have Rivers or even Stafford ahead of him.
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Old 05-15-2012, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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That's right Eagle fans. Keep crying. Your pain sustains me.
Yeah, pretty much this. The Giants are a very legit team, and they were the one team that I really didn't want the Packers to see in playoffs. I think they'll win 12 or 13 games this season.

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Old 05-15-2012, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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yeah, i mean, just think what would happen if welker had to line up opposite revis twice a year, and beat him.
On the outside, running comebacks, 9s, deep crosses, 8s, WC outside the hash slants, sluggos, and PoCos? He'd struggle mightily. Dez wouldn't (and didn't).

Welker's probably the best slot receiver in the game. But I don't value that skillset as much as guys who can win outside (many of which on my list can ALSO play the slot effectively at times.

Welker at SE or FL would be below average at best.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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Don't forget Dez Bryant and Percy Harvin were both first rounders and Wes Welker wasn't drafted. I don't even need to watch games to know who's better!!!

In all seriousness, I don't understand people who just say that Welker's role can be taken by any smart, quick WR. Why aren't more of them producing like Welker does then?

People said once Randy Moss left and the Pats stopped being able to strecth the field that Welker's production would drop but he had his best year last year with literally no one of note playing outside the hashes who could go vertical.

There still seems to be a real stigma attached to "slot" WRs.

Saying Welker isn't as good as others because he can't play out wide is like saying that Ryan Clady is a better offensive lineman than Carl Nicks because Nicks can't play LT. They are two different positions and require two different skill sets
Because they don't play in that offense (that sometimes uses Welker/Hernandez as their running game) with Tom freaking Brady at QB. Troy Brown put up similar numbers (moving around more than Welker, yes, but primarily inside complementing Givens, Patten, Branch, Wiggins, Watson, etc.)

Closest comparison would be Darren Sproles who has a comparable QB with Brees. Sproles is a quick, smart receiver (he just does it out of the backfield mostly).

And again, Julian freaking Edleman did what Welker did when he occupied that role.

Also, Amendola caught 85 passes with a not-Tom-Brady-rookie QB, **** OL, and nothing close to a Moss/Gronk threat.

And this year, Rob Gronkowski was the Moss factor. He got vertical up the seam and ran deep flags all the time (Blackburn pick).

Welker's Wayne Chrebet in an ideal situation.

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Old 05-16-2012, 07:43 AM    (permalink
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Edelman has 1 game with over 100 yards receiving why do you keep saying he duplicated Welker's numbers?
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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And this year, Rob Gronkowski was the Moss factor. He got vertical up the seam and ran deep flags all the time (Blackburn pick).
Gronk wasn't close to what Moss could do in terms of stretching defenses.

I get that Gronk drew attention and went deep at times, but Moss forced defenses to stretch both in terms of going deep but also defending outside the hashes. Thus he removed the option of teams clogging the middle of the field.

On the specified play above, it was Gronk against Chase Blackburn, ie one defender. Moss in 2007 for example drew at the very least 2 defenders on the vast, vast majority of plays.

Take the Pats against the Jets last year as an example. They played single coverage all game on the outside with Cromartie and Wilson against Branch and Ochocinco. Revis lined up on Welker and they had 5 players in the middle of the field to try and slow down Welker and the TEs. For people who say that all Welker does is run option routes and exploit mismatches, closing off the field between the hashes SHOULD reduce his effectiveness. However as I mention last year he had his best year.
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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JCBX's tears AND Chase Blackburn mention?

I love this thread
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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I'm relatively certain whatever site JCBX is using for those numbers are wrong. Welker had like a 50 yard TD against Revis last year on blown coverage.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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I'm not ******* JBwhatever. Swear to ******* god. Stop calling me that. Like I said yesterday, do whatever the hell you want to prove it, I'm not him. Not. *******. Him. Now stop calling me that.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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I'm not ******* JBwhatever. Swear to ******* god. Stop calling me that. Like I said yesterday, do whatever the hell you want to prove it, I'm not him. Not. *******. Him. Now stop calling me that.
You tell them, JCBX.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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Right on 1:48, and I guess it wasn't a TD but it was a huge play meaning those numbers you gave were way off JCBX.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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I'm not ******* JBwhatever. Swear to ******* god. Stop calling me that. Like I said yesterday, do whatever the hell you want to prove it, I'm not him. Not. *******. Him. Now stop calling me that.
Whoa calm down JCBX no need for all the ************ and stuff
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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Right on 1:48, and I guess it wasn't a TD but it was a huge play meaning those numbers you gave were way off JCBX.
Knowing PFF they probably wrongly attributed that to a safety. Oh well.


And **** you guys.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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PFF is wrong most of the time. Hard to put a lot of stock into that site.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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PFF is wrong most of the time. Hard to put a lot of stock into that site.
You're preaching to the choir. But still, he beat Revis once on blown coverage. It's not like NJX tried to portray it at all.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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OK, I usually try to stay away from this stuff. I really don't find it as fun or interesting as some do...but yeah, I'm here to chime in for a second because of how ridiculous the "Julian Edelman can replace Wes Welker" nonsense is. Welker is overrated and part of his production is a function of the offensive system and Tom Brady. I have zero issue agreeing with that. But saying Edelman did the same thing/is capable of doing the same thing? Horsecrap. Edelman is on the roster bubble as a receiver right now. The only reason he's still with the team is because of his ability to catch punts, play special teams, and pitch in as a defensive back. He came in and made some catches a few years ago when he had literally no one covering him and zero expectations, but he didn't play anywhere near the level Welker has consistently played at during his tenure as a Patriot. He's also done absolutely nothing significant as a receiver since, in spite of having opportunities. Given a choice between an outside receiver and a slot guy, I'm obviously taking the outside receiver...but Welker isn't purely a plug and play player. Heck, he isn't even a pure slot receiver anymore. That's where his game plays best, but we've needed him to do things on the outside the past few years and he's answered the call admirably.

So top five receiver? Probably not....but if it's that easy to manufacture production from the slot, why isn't everyone else finding and doing it? Antoin makes an excellent point about dictating coverage that I would like to highlight as well. We regularly see teams attempt to clog the passing lanes to prevent players(with Welker often leading the charge) from doing damage in the middle of the field.
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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OK, I usually try to stay away from this stuff. I really don't find it as fun or interesting as some do...but yeah, I'm here to chime in for a second because of how ridiculous the "Julian Edelman can replace Wes Welker" nonsense is. Welker is overrated and part of his production is a function of the offensive system and Tom Brady. I have zero issue agreeing with that. But saying Edelman did the same thing/is capable of doing the same thing? Horsecrap. Edelman is on the roster bubble as a receiver right now. The only reason he's still with the team is because of his ability to catch punts, play special teams, and pitch in as a defensive back. He came in and made some catches a few years ago when he had literally no one covering him and zero expectations, but he didn't play anywhere near the level Welker has consistently played at during his tenure as a Patriot. He's also done absolutely nothing significant as a receiver since, in spite of having opportunities. Given a choice between an outside receiver and a slot guy, I'm obviously taking the outside receiver...but Welker isn't purely a plug and play player. Heck, he isn't even a pure slot receiver anymore. That's where his game plays best, but we've needed him to do things on the outside the past few years and he's answered the call admirably.

So top five receiver? Probably not....but if it's that easy to manufacture production from the slot, why isn't everyone else finding and doing it? Antoin makes an excellent point about dictating coverage that I would like to highlight as well. We regularly see teams attempt to clog the passing lanes to prevent players(with Welker often leading the charge) from doing damage in the middle of the field.
Welker is obviously the BEST at it. But Sproles, Amendola, Edlemen, and Troy Brown before him have all done it well, just not AS well.

And I value a guy who can play inside and out OR a guy who can just play SE/FL a lot more.

There is not a GM in the league who would trade Dez Bryant for Wes Welker. Not one.

It is comparing red apples to green apples, so stacking him in a list is tough, but looking at his production and comparing it to Dez's is ridiculous for a bunch of reasons including his role in that scheme, how he substitutes for a running game, the high-percentage/low-reward catches he makes, and QB who has mastered the usage of that player.

No one here is putting Darren Sproles in the middle of their best WR lists when schematically the things he does are very similar (and he's got one of the few that compare to Brady throwing it to him). Sproles caught 86 for 710 and 7 TDs and added 86 carries for 600 and 2 more TDs. That's pretty much EXACTLY what Welker did last year in a career year production-wise. He does the same stuff out of the backfield/in the slot that Welker does exclusively in the slot. And he gets carries. On plays that he gets carries, Welker just gets more catches because the Pats depend on him more than Brees depends on JUST Welker because Graham can do shallow routes and Brees has decent WRs that need the ball while Pats have a very obvious and deliberate RB running-game, ONE primary option, and Hernandez and Welker underneath, with just a few plays with WRs as the primary.
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Gronk wasn't close to what Moss could do in terms of stretching defenses.

I get that Gronk drew attention and went deep at times, but Moss forced defenses to stretch both in terms of going deep but also defending outside the hashes. Thus he removed the option of teams clogging the middle of the field.

On the specified play above, it was Gronk against Chase Blackburn, ie one defender. Moss in 2007 for example drew at the very least 2 defenders on the vast, vast majority of plays.

Take the Pats against the Jets last year as an example. They played single coverage all game on the outside with Cromartie and Wilson against Branch and Ochocinco. Revis lined up on Welker and they had 5 players in the middle of the field to try and slow down Welker and the TEs. For people who say that all Welker does is run option routes and exploit mismatches, closing off the field between the hashes SHOULD reduce his effectiveness. However as I mention last year he had his best year.
Yes he is. In fact, what he does is even better for Welker because he affects the safeties so much more because he can run verticals right at them OR cross their faces. Moss could only run 9s and comebacks outside the hashes. That helped, but in terms of opening up the middle, Gronk's impact is better than Moss' was. With Moss you just had to play 2-deep and use two guys - he's either running a DEEP skinny post or a 9. With Gronk he could run anything, including sit in front of a backpedaling safety or cross his face. That affects the Linebackers. Moss never affected LBs.
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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2009 Edleman without Welker
W17: 10 catches for 103 yards
Playoffs: 6 catches for 44 yards and 2 tds
In 2010 they put in the backups against Miami and Edleman went for 3 catches and 70 yards.

Those were the only three games that Edleman occupied Welkers role.

2010 as the No. 1 option (Gronk's rookie year, Moss left): Wes Welker 9.9 ypc. 9.9. 9.9 yards per CATCH.
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