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Old 08-13-2012, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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Again, Alfred barely had any interaction with Selina Kyle so there is no way he would have also imagined her in a dream. It was 100% real.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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I've only seen it once and I probably won't go again until it comes out on dvd/bluray. It was a great flick, no question, but I'm not a big theater guy. Unless someone wants to go with me. :D
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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i've only seen it once and I probably won't go again until it comes out on dvd/bluray. It was a great flick, no question, but I'm not a big theater guy. Unless someone wants to go with me. :D
We'll go after laughing our asses off at some TWD?
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by niel89 View Post
General consensus is that part was real. I'm like 85% sure that it was real, but I could see how Alfred imagined it.
How could you see this possibility? There is nothing that supports this.

It literally makes zero sense in the context of the film.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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They showed Alfred's dream earlier and the woman in the dream was not Selina Kyle.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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We'll go after laughing our asses off at some TWD?
Done and done.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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How could you see this possibility? There is nothing that supports this.

It literally makes zero sense in the context of the film.
There just wasn't a point that showed Batman could get away before the explosion. It showed him flying the bat about 3 seconds before the explosion. When/if Bruce actually died, it would just break Alfred down to the point where he would imagine his fantasy actually happens.

Not saying it's what happened but it could work. You're right thought with the context.

As for Selina Kyle, she was the only woman Bruce had even interacted with other than Talia. If Alfreds fantasy was to see Bruce move on and have a wife, she would the closest thing in possible. A tenuous connection at best though.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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They showed Alfred's dream earlier and the woman in the dream was not Selina Kyle.
But perhaps the problem...... it was a dream within a dream.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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But perhaps the problem...... it was a dream within a dream.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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They showed Alfred's dream earlier and the woman in the dream was not Selina Kyle.
And that wasn't even a dream. That was an actual memory of when Alfred went to a cafe in where was it, Italy?
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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There just wasn't a point that showed Batman could get away before the explosion. It showed him flying the bat about 3 seconds before the explosion. When/if Bruce actually died, it would just break Alfred down to the point where he would imagine his fantasy actually happens.
That's assuming the last scene was following a linear sequence though.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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And that wasn't even a dream. That was an actual memory of when Alfred went to a cafe in where was it, Italy?
Florence. On the banks of the Arno to be precise. It was his fantasy of what happened to Bruce when he went missing after he confronts Carmine Falcone in Begins.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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There just wasn't a point that showed Batman could get away before the explosion. It showed him flying the bat about 3 seconds before the explosion. When/if Bruce actually died, it would just break Alfred down to the point where he would imagine his fantasy actually happens.

Not saying it's what happened but it could work. You're right thought with the context.

As for Selina Kyle, she was the only woman Bruce had even interacted with other than Talia. If Alfreds fantasy was to see Bruce move on and have a wife, she would the closest thing in possible. A tenuous connection at best though.
Bruce getting away makes sense within the context of the film. Why? Because there are numerous other things that don't make sense. Such as Bruce recovering from a back injury in a griming prison after four or five months when really, he would have been a paraplegic. Also, that atomic bomb would have probably blinded everyone in the city when it went off. Not to mention The Bat wouldn't have been able to fly that far at the speed it was going. A lot of things don't make sense in this heightened reality. That being said, there is a built in logic to those events leading up to them within the context of the film. In the logic that is specifically built for this heightend reality. This gives more credibility to the fact that Bruce escaped the explosion. How isn't as important that he actually did manage to escape. It isn't some random contrivance because there are scenes in the film that give that instance credibility.

This isn't the case with Alfred's "delusion" theory. He never had a dream. He had a detailed memory and a desire based on that memory which is seen in the film.

Also all of the evidence that points to the contrary of Bruce actually being dead.

- The auto-pilot was fixed by Bruce.
- Alfred saw Selina with Bruce at the end. Why would Selina have been in Alfred's dream? He never knew of Bruce's relationship with Selina. If anything it would have Miranda Tate, as that was the woman he was trying to hook Bruce up with. Not Kyle. Alfred didn't even know he had any sort of feelings for Selina, which is because they aren't even established until way later.
- The Bat signal was fixed.
- Instructions were left to John Blake on how to find the Bat-Cave.

As for the possibility of Bruce taking care of these things before the bomb went off, why would he waste time doing that? Those things were of the least concern and Bruce barely had time to stop Bane's plot once he got back to Gotham. That doesn't make sense and there isn't anything to indicate that Bruce even did these things before he returned to duty. It's just a guess in the dark that has zero evidence for support.

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Florence. On the banks of the Arno to be precise. It was his fantasy of what happened to Bruce when he went missing after he confronts Carmine Falcone in Begins.
Right, it was his desire/wish of how to meet Bruce instead of seeing Bruce come back to Gotham. But what we actually see is an actual memory by Alfred. His desire is explained to the audience while we watch an actual memory of Alfred. It wasn't a "fantasy" vision or whatever.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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Bruce getting away makes sense within the context of the film. Why? Because there are numerous other things that don't make sense. Such as Bruce recovering from a back injury in a griming prison after four or five months when really, he would have been a paraplegic. Also, that atomic bomb would have probably blinded everyone in the city when it went off. Not to mention The Bat wouldn't have been able to fly that far at the speed it was going. Bruce also getting back to Gotham seemingly like Nightcrawler as well. A lot of things don't make sense in this heightened reality. That being said, there are built in logic to those events leading up to them. This gives more credibility to the fact that Bruce escaped. How isn't as important that he actually did manage to escape.

This isn't the case with Alfred's "delusion" theory. He never had a dream. He had a detailed memory and a desire based on that memory which is seen in the film.

Also all of the evidence that points to the contrary of Bruce actually being alive.

- The auto-pilot was fixed by Bruce.
- Alfred saw Selina with Bruce at the end. Why would Selina have been in Alfred's dream? He never knew of Bruce's relationship with Selina. If anything it would have Miranda Tate, as that was the woman he was trying to hook Bruce up with. Not Kyle. Alfred didn't even know he had any sort of feelings for Selina, which is because they aren't even established until way later.
- The Bat signal was fixed.
- Instructions were left to John Blake on how to find the Bat-Cave.

As for the possibility of Bruce taking care of these things before the bomb went off, why would he waste time doing that? Those things were of the least concern and Bruce barely had time to stop Bane's plot once he got back to Gotham. That doesn't make sense and there isn't anything to indicate that Bruce even did these things before he returned to duty. It's just a guess in the dark that has zero evidence for support.



Right, it was his desire/wish of how to meet Bruce instead of seeing Bruce come back to Gotham. But what we actually see is an actual memory by Alfred. His desire is explained to the audience while we watch an actual memory of Alfred. It wasn't a "fantasy" vision or whatever.
We are basically talking semantics. Since we know Bruce was never in Florence during that time. Making it a fantasy. We are not seeing Alfred's memory of a real event. The Woman you see with Bruce is not real. When you see Bruce with Selina Kyle that is real.

As for him doing some the things he easily could have done them before he got captured by Bane. He fixed the auto pilot according to Fox six months ago. The Will he could have had done after Bane's attack on the Stock exchange.

The only thing people can really have a problem arguing is how he fixed the light with out anybody noticing. My best guess is people got caught up in the hysteria and did not notice it until after the "supposed" death of Batman.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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We are basically talking semantics. Since we know Bruce was never in Florence during that time. Making it a fantasy. We are not seeing Alfred's memory of a real event. The Woman you see with Bruce is not real. When you see Bruce with Selina Kyle that is real.

As for him doing some the things he easily could have done them before he got captured by Bane. He fixed the auto pilot according to Fox six months ago. The Will he could have had done after Bane's attack on the Stock exchange.

The only thing people can really have a problem arguing is how he fixed the light was out anybody noticing. My best guess is people got caught up in the hysteria and did not notice it until after the "supposed" death of Batman.
That was a real memory. Alfred talks about how he goes to that location every single year. What evidence is there to assume that it's a fantasy? Because Alfred said it was his desire? If it was a fantasy why didn't he see Bruce in the delusion? That doesn't make any sense if it was his fantasy.

And again why would Selina Kyle be in Alfred's delusion? She wouldn't, which means it wasn't a delusion. It was a real event.

What do you mean by "the woman you see with Bruce is not real"? When Alfred showcases his memory he sees a man that isn't Bruce and a woman that isn't Kyle. At the end of the movie he sees Bruce and Kyle together. Bruce is only in one instance of that scene, not both.

The events bookend the film for a reason. The fixing of the auto-pilot, the fixing of the bat-signal, and the instructions left to Blake combined with Bruce in Florence with Kyle are shown in linear fashion for a reason. If Bruce was supposed to be dead, why would all of these events be shown at the end of the film or at all? Why would everything be spelled out for the audience instead of leaving it ambiguous? And what evidence in the movie supports the notion that Bruce had these things in place when he got back to Gotham right when it was on the verge of blowing up? There is none first and foremost and second it doesn't make sense in the first place.

My goodness people are really pulling **** out of their ass to have this work logically so they can have their Inception-like ending, and it just doesn't.

Sorry to sound like a jerk but if you or anyone else honestly believe Bruce Wayne is dead or aren't sure then you're just ******** plain and simple.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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That was a real memory. Alfred talks about how he goes to that location every single year. What evidence is there to assume that it's a fantasy? Because Alfred said it was his desire? If it was a fantasy why didn't he see Bruce in the delusion? That doesn't make any sense if it was his fantasy.

And again why would Selina Kyle be in Alfred's delusion? Explain that.

The events bookend the film for a reason. The fixing of the auto-pilot, the fixing of the bat-signal, and the instructions left to Blake combined with Bruce in Florence with Kyle are shown in linear fashion for a reason. If Bruce was supposed to be dead, why would all of these events be shown at the end of the film? And what evidence in the movie supports the notion that Bruce had these things in place when he got back to Gotham right when it was on the verge of blowing up? There is none first and foremost and second it doesn't make sense in the first place.

My goodness people are really pulling **** out of their ass to have this work logically so they can have their Inception-like ending, and it just doesn't.

Sorry to sound like a jerk but if you or anyone else honestly believe Bruce Wayne is dead or aren't sure then you're just ******** plain and simple.
Here is the quote

Alfred: [to Bruce] Remember when you left Gotham? Before all this, before Batman? You were gone seven years. Seven years I waited, hoping that you wouldn't come back. Every year, I took a holiday. I went to Florence, there's this cafe, on the banks of the Arno. Every fine evening, I'd sit there and order a Fernet Branca. I had this fantasy, that I would look across the tables and I'd see you there, with a wife and maybe a couple of kids. You wouldn't say anything to me, nor me to you. But we'd both know that you'd made it, that you were happy. I never wanted you to come back to Gotham. I always knew there was nothing here for you, except pain and tragedy. And I wanted something more for you than that. I still do.

He says himself it is a fantasy. Its not a memory because Bruce was never actually there. Bruce was off trying to figure out the Criminal element. The woman Alfred sees Bruce with is Bruce's fantasy wife. That woman is not Selina Kyle.

I never said Bruce is dead. I am fully on Team Bruce is alive.

It is shown at the end because they want you to believe Bruce made the ultimate sacrifice to save Gotham and gave his life to save the city in the scene before.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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Here is the quote

Alfred: [to Bruce] Remember when you left Gotham? Before all this, before Batman? You were gone seven years. Seven years I waited, hoping that you wouldn't come back. Every year, I took a holiday. I went to Florence, there's this cafe, on the banks of the Arno. Every fine evening, I'd sit there and order a Fernet Branca. I had this fantasy, that I would look across the tables and I'd see you there, with a wife and maybe a couple of kids. You wouldn't say anything to me, nor me to you. But we'd both know that you'd made it, that you were happy. I never wanted you to come back to Gotham. I always knew there was nothing here for you, except pain and tragedy. And I wanted something more for you than that. I still do.

He says himself it is a fantasy. Its not a memory because Bruce was never actually there. Bruce was off trying to figure out the Criminal element. The woman Alfred sees Bruce with is Bruce's fantasy wife. That woman is not Selina Kyle.

I never said Bruce is dead. I am fully on Team Bruce is alive.

It is shown at the end because they want you to believe Bruce made the ultimate sacrifice to save Gotham and gave his life to save the city in the scene before.
Wow oh my goodness. Okay...

The film is showcasing Alfred's desire. His fantasy, his wish, or whatever synonym you want to use. That scene in the movie is a memory. Because Bruce is not in it. That is why. If it was a real delusion/daydream or whatever why can't Bruce be in it? They are images being created by his mind. It is a memory that is why. Why can't Bruce be in that "fantasy" then if it wasn't a memory? Because Bruce wasn't there? He forgot what Bruce looked like? That doesn't make any sense. If those are images created by his imagination then why can't Bruce be in them? Because he was touring the world? Therefore Alfred's mind is altered? That doesn't make sense.

Those events are shown at the end because it says Bruce is alive along with the other events that prove this. Not because he made the "ultimate sacrifice" or whatever other metaphorical ******** someone wants to plug in. The events show he's alive and that he's happy. It's pretty simple to understand.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Shut up Caddy.
We both know that isn't going to happen.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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Wow oh my goodness. Okay...

The film is showcasing Alfred's desire. His fantasy, his wish, or whatever synonym you want to use. That scene in the movie is a memory. Because Bruce is not in it. That is why. If it was a real delusion/daydream or whatever why can't Bruce be in it? They are images being created by his mind. It is a memory that is why. Why can't Bruce be in that "fantasy" then if it wasn't a memory? Because Bruce wasn't there? He forgot what Bruce looked like? That doesn't make any sense. If those are images created by his imagination then why can't Bruce be in them? Because he was touring the world? Therefore Alfred's mind is altered? That doesn't make sense.

Those events are shown at the end because it says Bruce is alive along with the other events that prove this. Not because he made the "ultimate sacrifice" or whatever other metaphorical ******** someone wants to plug in. The events show he's alive and that he's happy. It's pretty simple to understand.
Obviously the guy you see is not Bruce (christian bale) I have always assumed that guy was supposed to be a young Bruce based on how they made Bruce look when he came back from school in Begins. Maybe you are right and it was supposed to be a random person. I don't think so but maybe.

I don't know why you think I am saying Bruce is not in the fantasy. I have been saying that man is supposed to represent Bruce. I think maybe you are getting confused cause the guy in the scene is not Christian Bale?.


I AM SAYING HE IS ALIVE WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

They want you to think when you see him in the bat before the bomb goes off that he is in the Bat and that he gave his life to save the city.

If you read my posts before I said he is not in the bat with the bomb.

Just because the events are shown at the end does not mean he didn't amend his will to leave the house to the city for a orphanage. Doesn't mean he cant have left Blake the map for the cave before other events in the movie. He could have fixed the light in the middle of the night since nobody was paying attention.

Just because it was not foreshadowed at a earlier point in the movie does not make it illogical to think that he could have fixed things before the final battle.

It obviously takes some time and thought to go through with a plot to fake your death. What you think he made the decision on a wim?
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:56 PM    (permalink
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Batman gave Catwoman the flash drive with the program prior to escalating the final confrontation. Catwoman agreed to do her part in the escalation and then leave. Before she went off she pleaded with Batman to come with her and no go after Bane another time. As usual Batman says Gotham needs him and there is still work to be done.

Cut to the bomb detonating, and the aftermath is the death of Bruce Wayne. The "death" was vital to trigger the events of Bruce's will. Bruce always stated in the prior films that he created Batman as a symbol and Batman would always be there for Gotham. This is fulfilled by the package for Blake. Batman will remain there for Gotham and is solidified by the Bat symbol light being repaired and discovered by Gordon.

After the funeral for Bruce, obviously we saw Alfred break down by the "death" of Bruce Wayne as illustrated by his monologue at the graves of Bruce's parents. After such a tragic and emotional event Alfred would go on vacation. And where does he vacation? Oh yeah, Florence, Italy. And where does he go in Florence? Oh yeah, a cafe on the banks of the Arno. We know all this from earlier in the movie in the sequence in the Bat Cave between Alfred and Bruce Wayne.

As Alfred sits at the table and orders his Fernet Branca, and as his usual routine while at the cafe he observes the crowd. He sees Bruce and Selina Kyle and immediately smiles and leaves the cafe. Why did he smile and leave?

Because seeing Bruce and Selina gives him the confirmation that not only is his one wish is indeed true, but also the Bruce survived the suicide mission!

Thats why the sequence of events that followed was the discovery by Lucious Fox that Bruce Wayne had fixed the auto-pilot in the Bat 6 months prior, that Bruce Wayne had left a package for John Robin Blake, and that the Bat symbol was fixed atop the Gotham Police Station.

Bruce Wayne set the Bat to auto-pilot so as to move the bomb out over the water. He meets up with Selina Kyle, if you need a time when this could have been arranged think after Catwoman shoots Bane to save Batman, and they escape Gotham unnoticed to use the "Clean Slate". By starting their lives over they are free to leave the country and travel without concern, and Bruce knowing that Lucious would figure out that he had survived the crash had to go to Florence with Selina so Alfred could get his confirmation as well.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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Obviously the guy you see is not Bruce (christian bale) I have always assumed that guy was supposed to be a young Bruce based on how they made Bruce look when he came back from school in Begins. Maybe you are right and it was supposed to be a random person. I don't think so but maybe.

I don't know why you think I am saying Bruce is not in the fantasy. I have been saying that man is supposed to represent Bruce. I think maybe you are getting confused cause the guy in the scene is not Christian Bale?.


I AM SAYING HE IS ALIVE WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

They want you to think when you see him in the bat before the bomb goes off that he is in the Bat and that he gave his life to save the city.

If you read my posts before I said he is not in the bat with the bomb.

Just because the events are shown at the end does not mean he didn't amend his will to leave the house to the city for a orphanage. Doesn't mean he cant have left Blake the map for the cave before other events in the movie. He could have fixed the light in the middle of the night since nobody was paying attention.

Just because it was not foreshadowed at a earlier point in the movie does not make it illogical to think that he could have fixed things before the final battle.

It obviously takes some time and thought to go through with a plot to fake your death. What you think he made the decision on a wim?
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:03 AM    (permalink
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What well thought out and mature response Ness.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:03 AM    (permalink
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It obviously takes some time and thought to go through with a plot to fake your death. What you think he made the decision on a whim?
You mean like ALL THE ******* TIME HE HAD IN THE PRISON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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You mean like ALL THE ******* TIME HE HAD IN THE PRISON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ya. He definitely had some time to think down there.
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