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Old 11-28-2012, 11:32 AM    (permalink
SolidGold
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Originally Posted by wicket View Post
cant compare meyer or chiziks system to sumlins system. I would compare it to the system leach ran at texas tech and those QBs were nowhere near the heisman either dispite amazing seasons.

Also the fact that Manziel shat the bed on two of his three biggest games is really an issue for me. Also keep in mind he had a Heisman half against Bama, kid didnt do **** in the second half
Newton and Tebow gained alot of their yards on designed run plays. Manziel gained most of his rushing yards on broken plays - ie passing plays that did not work out so he took off and created with his feet. He is a much more improvisational and exciting player than either Tebow or Newton.

Its unfair to give more credit to the system for Manziel and less to either Tebow or Newton. The icing on the cake for Manziel is that A&M was essentially a big 12 team coming in against all those vaunted SEC defenses and putting up points on all of them. At the beginning of the season all the pundits were stating that Missouri would have an easier time transitioning to the SEC and A&M would struggle while the opposite proved true.

Klein was my frontrunner but he blew it against Baylor. Manziel now leads the way as the best player in the country. Teo is not even the best linebacker in the nation and those are the only three that should be in the conversation. Manziel came out of nowhere and took college football by storm - as always have to give props to Brent for being the first to mention him on this site.

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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one last thing to consider when comparing Manziel and Newton:
the difference between how they performed against teh top opponents and the worst opponents. Im seperating both their schedules in two halves with newtons having 7 on the tough half for the seccg:
Manziel tough 6: Alabama, UF, Florida, Mississippi, Mississippi St, Missouri
Manziel bottom 6: Arkansas (who were without QB otherwise theyd swith with mizzou), Sam Houston State, Auburn, SMU, SC State and LaTech

Manziel passing vs top: 223 Att 155 comp @ 70% 1576 yards 7.1 y/at 6tds 6int
Manziel passing vs bottom: 177 att 118 comp @67% 10.4 y/a 18 tds 2 int
Manziel rushing vs top: 105 att 504yrds @4.8ypc 6tds
Manziel carries vs bottom: 79 att 677yrds @8.6 yoc 13 tds

Newtons top 7: SCar, SCar(SECCG), LSU, Bama, MSU, Arkie, Georgia
Newtons bottom 6: Mississippi, Kentucky, Clemson, LaMo, Chattanooga, Arkansas St

Cam vs top passing: 133 att 89 comp @ 67% 9.2 y/a 1219yrds 14 tds 2 int
Cam vs bot passing: 113 att 76 comp @ 67% 12.1y/a 1370yrds 14tds 4 int

Cam vs top rushing: 162 att 914 yrds @5.6 ypc 13tds
Cam vs bot rushing: 80 att 495 yrds @6.2 ypc 7 tds

the thing is, Cam showed up in big games big time, manziel hasnt. Not saying you need as good of a year as cam to be called a heisman contender. Just saying that acting like their resume is even remotely comparable outside of superficial stats is just flat out wrong imo
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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Newton and Tebow gained alot of their yards on designed run plays. Manziel gained most of his rushing yards on broken plays - ie passing plays that did not work out so he took off and created with his feet. He is a much more improvisational and exciting player than either Tebow or Newton.

Its unfair to give more credit to the system for Manziel and less to either Tebow or Newton. The icing on the cake for Manziel is that A&M was essentially a big 12 team coming in against all those vaunted SEC defenses and putting up points on all of them. At the beginning of the season all the pundits were stating that Missouri would have an easier time transitioning to the SEC and A&M would struggle while the opposite proved true.

Klein was my frontrunner but he blew it against Baylor. Manziel now leads the way as the best player in the country. Teo is not even the best linebacker in the nation and those are the only three that should be in the conversation. Manziel came out of nowhere and took college football by storm - as always have to give props to Brent for being the first to mention him on this site.
not saying teo should win, just saying i have a bunch of reasons why id struggle to give it to manziel. there are no other slam dunk picks as well but still
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wicket View Post
one last thing to consider when comparing Manziel and Newton:
the difference between how they performed against teh top opponents and the worst opponents. Im seperating both their schedules in two halves with newtons having 7 on the tough half for the seccg:
Manziel tough 6: Alabama, UF, Florida, Mississippi, Mississippi St, Missouri
Manziel bottom 6: Arkansas (who were without QB otherwise theyd swith with mizzou), Sam Houston State, Auburn, SMU, SC State and LaTech

Manziel passing vs top: 223 Att 155 comp @ 70% 1576 yards 7.1 y/at 6tds 6int
Manziel passing vs bottom: 177 att 118 comp @67% 10.4 y/a 18 tds 2 int
Manziel rushing vs top: 105 att 504yrds @4.8ypc 6tds
Manziel carries vs bottom: 79 att 677yrds @8.6 yoc 13 tds

Newtons top 7: SCar, SCar(SECCG), LSU, Bama, MSU, Arkie, Georgia
Newtons bottom 6: Mississippi, Kentucky, Clemson, LaMo, Chattanooga, Arkansas St

Cam vs top passing: 133 att 89 comp @ 67% 9.2 y/a 1219yrds 14 tds 2 int
Cam vs bot passing: 113 att 76 comp @ 67% 12.1y/a 1370yrds 14tds 4 int

Cam vs top rushing: 162 att 914 yrds @5.6 ypc 13tds
Cam vs bot rushing: 80 att 495 yrds @6.2 ypc 7 tds

the thing is, Cam showed up in big games big time, manziel hasnt. Not saying you need as good of a year as cam to be called a heisman contender. Just saying that acting like their resume is even remotely comparable outside of superficial stats is just flat out wrong imo
You forgot one more thing: Cam Newton's swagger was off the charts.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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You forgot one more thing: Cam Newton's swagger was off the charts.
tried to put that in to stats but i couldnt find the infinite button
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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It's not that Manziel is above Tebow and Newtons years or even equal really. Manziel is just the best player in an obviously down year. I just don't see a better player this year despite Manziel's flaws. Just name me who is more deserving this year.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:42 AM    (permalink
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I don't really think its a down year. Manziel is arguably better than Griffin who won last season. The last time there was a down year was in 2009 when Ingram won.

Wicket - nice comparison between Manziel and Newton +++ rep
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:52 AM    (permalink
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If team success didn't matter I think Lee would be the obvious pick as most outstanding...seems how it does I give it to Manziel with Te'o a close 2nd.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:59 AM    (permalink
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If Johnny Manziel does not become the first freshman to win the award, they may as well chuck it. It's an overrated award for the most part anyway although they've gotten better since 2003.

(Herschel Walker should have won it, but I can at least spot them that that was in the days before email and the ballots were due in before Herschel dashed for over 200 yards in the season finale against Ga Tech).
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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I don't really think its a down year. Manziel is arguably better than Griffin who won last season. The last time there was a down year was in 2009 when Ingram won.

Wicket - nice comparison between Manziel and Newton +++ rep
Manziel is a more productive runner than RG3 was last season for Baylor. Griffin by far was the superior passer which isn't unusual since it was Robert's 4th season starting and Manziel's first.

If they both had their Heisman seasons in the same year, IMO most voters would favor the RS junior RG3 over the RS freshman Johnny Manziel.

However in the 2012 season Manziel has separated himself.
Geno Smith fell off and Manziel's upset over undefeated Alabama laps Klein's loss to Baylor.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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If team success didn't matter I think Lee would be the obvious pick as most outstanding...seems how it does I give it to Manziel with Te'o a close 2nd.
agreed, if it was just most outstanding player it would be one of lee, warmack, clowney or elam to me
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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I'm just glad we have a preseason "Heisman Watch" list. I wouldn't have even known to watch Manziel and Te'o if not for that list!
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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Clowney has been awesome but not Heisman worthy IMO even for a defensive player.
And Warmack is a good OT, but it's not like he's blocking two people at the same time.

If you're a WR in college and don't play specials, unless you put up record setting numbers as a wideout I don't see how you sniff the Heisman.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:52 AM    (permalink
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If Johnny Manziel does not become the first freshman to win the award, they may as well chuck it. It's an overrated award for the most part anyway although they've gotten better since 2003.

(Herschel Walker should have won it, but I can at least spot them that that was in the days before email and the ballots were due in before Herschel dashed for over 200 yards in the season finale against Ga Tech).
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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The problem with a guy like Warmack is his value. How bad would it really hurt Alabama to lose Warmack? I'm guessing not nearly as much as pretty much any team losing its starting QB or top defensive player.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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The problem with a guy like Warmack is his value. How bad would it really hurt Alabama to lose Warmack? I'm guessing not nearly as much as pretty much any team losing its starting QB or top defensive player.
you could see with LSU what the difference was though. I think bama has way better depth along the OLine but when LSU lost one of two of their main olinemen their running game plummeted quickly
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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it remains sumlins offense so those stats arent really serious and he screwed the pooch against UF and LSU
You must not have watched many A&M games. They were 13th in the nation in rushing, but please keep assuming they just throw the ball.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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I don't understand why people are down on Teo?? He's the heart and soul of the best team in the nation right now... let alone the team's best player.


Manti has 7 interceptions this year as a Linebacker!! This is 2nd in college football. The D1-A leader in interceptions is a Safety - Phillip Thomas for Fresno State with 8. The next closest linebacker is 19th overall with 4. Including Teo, there are only three linebackers in the top 50 for Interceptions.


Teo is the leader and best player of the best team in college football right now. The most points his defense has given up this year is 26 points in Triple Overtime. His defense has not allowed more than two touchdowns in ANY game this season.... yet has a top 10 Strength of Schedule according to most any college football fan outside a few states in the South.


I'm sorry, but Teo is every bit the Heisman hopeful that Suh was. Imo Suh should have won it back then, and Teo should win it this year. I think the difference is that Teo is a great ambassador to college football, whereas Suh is a complete douchebag. (i suspect a lot of this came after he got his check though)


Yes, Johnny Football is exciting to watch, but give me a break; one win gives this kid the Heisman? I'm not saying Teo is head and shoulders number 1 to win the award, but to say that he is at least not as deserving as anyone else in college football is simply asinine.

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Old 12-02-2012, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wicket View Post
the thing is, Cam showed up in big games big time, manziel hasnt. Not saying you need as good of a year as cam to be called a heisman contender. Just saying that acting like their resume is even remotely comparable outside of superficial stats is just flat out wrong imo
orly?

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Old 12-02-2012, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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I'll just put it this way. Is A&M a 10 win team without Manziel and those extra 4,600 yards he has picked up this year in the toughest conference in all of college football? I for one don't think he is a better football player compared to Manti but I just don't see them being the same team without him. I think Notre Dame still probably beats mighty Michigan, Purdue & Pitt without Manti.
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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What historically makes people think Teo is a legit Heisman candidate as a middle linebacker??

To me he's not close to being better than Kuechly was last year, the difference being ND has a better overall squad than BC had last season.
7 INTs is great, but that's not enough of a game changing impact for a Mike to have in order to win the Heisman.

You don't get the Heisman because you're a leader.
ND is undefeated because they have talent on both sides of the football and their Oline and Dline are SEC quality.

Teo is getting way too much credit for the success ND is having this season IMO.

There's absolutely nothing overwhelming about Teo's game when you watch ND play. To me that's go to be one of the defining characteristics of a Heisman winner; when you watch them on TV their talent and skillset more often than not leave you in awe.

That's the reason offensive players dominate this award.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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I don't understand why people are down on Teo?? He's the heart and soul of the best team in the nation right now... let alone the team's best player.


Manti has 7 interceptions this year as a Linebacker!! This is 2nd in college football. The D1-A leader in interceptions is a Safety - Phillip Thomas for Fresno State with 8. The next closest linebacker is 19th overall with 4. Including Teo, there are only three linebackers in the top 50 for Interceptions.


Teo is the leader and best player of the best team in college football right now. The most points his defense has given up this year is 26 points in Triple Overtime. His defense has not allowed more than two touchdowns in ANY game this season.... yet has a top 10 Strength of Schedule according to most any college football fan outside a few states in the.
The Heisman, in theory, isn't an award for the best player on the best team. I don't think Te'o is the best defensive player in the country, let alone the best player.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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Welp guess the finalists are down to Manziel, Klein and Te'o. Manziel has this all but locked up I guess.

I wish Lee would've at least gotten an invite though.

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Old 12-03-2012, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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You must not have watched many A&M games. They were 13th in the nation in rushing, but please keep assuming they just throw the ball.
and inflated offensive stats only happen in air raid offenses, nice try though
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JRTPlaya21 View Post
I'll just put it this way. Is A&M a 10 win team without Manziel and those extra 4,600 yards he has picked up this year in the toughest conference in all of college football? I for one don't think he is a better football player compared to Manti but I just don't see them being the same team without him. I think Notre Dame still probably beats mighty Michigan, Purdue & Pitt without Manti.
notre dame wouldve lost to michigan, stanford and probably pitt if it wasnt for manti. admittedly you never know for sure but in all three of these games he was absolutely pivotal
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